ECT The problem I see on Christian forums:
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Cross Reference
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Baloney! Jesus didn't come to call the righteous to repentance but, sinners, the unrighteous. Why would the righteous need to repent of sins when all they needed was someone to reconcile them; make peace with God in their behalf?
". . . . They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick."
Luke 5:31 (KJV) and Mk. 2:17
So much for the lousy interpretation of Romans 3:10 by agenda ridden religionists.
Cross Reference
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Another is no ability in you to understand the word of God.
However, I edited my last that I don't think will make a difference with you . . being "unjustified" as you seem to be.
Take up you objections with Jesus.
WonderfulLordJesus
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Matthew 13
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
The question is not if there are any righteous - Jesus' words in Luke 5:31 and Mark 2:17 go more to awareness than actual situation. That's why He told the Pharisees this :
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
John 9:41
Blindness to one's condition means that being reconciled to God (on His side of things) is a done deal but does not do anything for man until that man's eyes are opened to who he really is and where he stands with respect to God (as one running from and rebelling against God). Until the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and convicts us of sin, we don't see the need for a correction. We, being sick, don't know it and so we don't "need" a physician. The Pharisees were sinners but Jesus didn't eat and drink with them (Luke 5:30) - because they did not have that sentence of death in them. They were righteous in their own eyes. They trusted in themselves that they were righteous.
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14
Interesting, isn't it, that Jesus never once in the Sermon on the Mount says "Blessed are the righteous"...
Now what were you saying about Romans 3:10?
You're right. It's an exercise in futility.
the problem I see
is
our inability to dialogue
and
this is due to a number of things
the meaning of words has been corrupted
just quoting the bible
not wanting to answer questions
not being able to answer questions
an inability to think
is
our inability to dialogue
and
this is due to a number of things
the meaning of words has been corrupted
just quoting the bible
not wanting to answer questions
not being able to answer questions
an inability to think
Cross Reference
New member
Question: How does one seek after righteousness if righteousness is not his goal?
"Blessed are they which SEEK AFTER, hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled".
Again, so much for the poor interpretation of Romans 3:10. C'mon. Fess up.
I am still working on sanctification and justification
so
which come first?
Cross Reference
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What was my reply?
Cross Reference
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Lets add one more: Type in complete sentences for better understanding . . . line for line..
nikolai_42
Well-known member
That is a slightly different question. One who thinks himself righteous will not seek righteousness. Jesus' implicit point is that (as Romans 3:10 echoes) NONE are righteous. He didn't come to say "You aren't righteous" (John 3:17, Matthew 12:20) but to call sinners to repentance. Those that don't think themselves sinners will find out what they really are. Those that seek righteousness do so precisely because they are not righteous and they know it deeply.
Those that seek righteousness but do not approach Christ as the publican in Luke 18:13 are merely manifesting very clearly what was confessed in Isaiah 64:6...only they don't realize it (or don't want to accept it) :
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 64:6
That's what the rich young ruler proved. His was a righteousness after the law.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:4-10
And none will seek Him unless they are drawn by the Father first.
And again...the righteousness that they seek? It is only in the brokenness of realizing that in him dwells no good thing that a man will come to God as the publican did. And that is only done by the work of God through the Holy Spirit and repentance is a natural byproduct of that state. Anything else is building on a foundation of sand.
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I Cor 15:56-57
Cross Reference
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No it isn't different. It is exploratory of the Matthew 5:6.
What you need now be asking, because of Romans 3:10, is why didn't Jesus speak of him who is self-righteous that a distinction could be made?
But the righteous will always view themselves in that light; as sinners. Job is a perfect example. That is what true righteousness is all about you have been, because of the interpretation of Rom 3:10, blinded to.
Are you saying the unrighteous will seek righteousness or self-righteousness?
Jesus Christ wasn't around in the OT. Start there and work forward. Count the heads of those who were righteous and of their own volition were they.
He was a self-righteousness after the law. He just didn't know it that Jesus had to reveal it to him.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:4-10
A non sequitur.
Seek Jesus? In that case a preacher would be needed to explain Him! That is what evangelism is all about. Jesus said go and make disciples out of those who are righteous. That is the context of what He commanded because evangelist can't save anyone.
Do a good review of what I rely with because you are all over the road in your thinking. Address my replies.
Another non-sequitur.
genuineoriginal
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I thought the problem on ChristianForums is the gay avatar system, as pointed out in this POTD:
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You are so spiritually deficient you have no idea about what kind of questions to ask nor how to answer the ones that a child might ask. . . or, for that matter, answer.
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
You truthfully and masterfully drive home the heart of the matter, Nikolai_42. The problem is a missing link, that direly critical word, repentance. Great post!
Regarding the following, sorry, not all my stuff, copied from here and there, but where not recorded in my notes:
On repentance: [Note that repentance is not turning from sin, and this is bad preaching. Repentance is a change of mind, agreement with God: telling people they need to turn from sin before being saved is to deny we are sinners, deny that we come to Christ sinners. People can get the idea they need to be perfect, before they can be saved and avoid salvation! People come as they are to the Lord.]
Definition - Repentance is the work of God which results in a change of mind with respect to man's relationship to God. It is neither sorrow nor penance, though penitent sorrow may lead to a change of mind. Repentance is always an element of saving faith, and repentance involves remorseful acknowledgement of and agreement with God as to our sinful state and need of salvation, a realization of our vile, unclean condition before a God of absolute holiness.
It Is Not Reformation. Repentance is wholly an inward act of the mind. To many people it means to turn away from their sins, but if that were so, this would be reformation. Repentance is not doing something, as an act, for no man is saved because he gives up something. A man can turn away from his sins and still not be a Christian. It Is Not Contrition. By this we mean that repentance is not agony of the soul for sin. Many folk in jail are sorry. Are they sorry for their crime? No. They are sorry because they were caught. We believe, however, that in a genuine case of repentance, the sinner will be sorry for his sin. Just being sorry for sin is not repentance, but it can lead to repentance. "Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (II Cor. 7:10) It Is Not Penance. Penance is an expression of sorrow (by some act) that is done to pay for sin; it is something like a punishment.
It Is a Change of Mind. The literal meaning of repentance is "after-thought" or "reconsideration." By "change of mind" we do not mean a "change of opinion"; a "change of mind" is the substitution of a new mind for the old. It is new in character. True repentance is a change of mind which will lead to a change of action, but let us be warned that it is possible to have a change of action without a change of mind. A good example of repentance is found in Mathew 21:28-29:
"But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went."
Repentance manifests in: Change in the Intellect. Change of Feeling. Change of Will. Change of Action.
"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their hearts, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost... Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (Acts 2:37, 38, 41)
"The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." (II Tim. 2:24, 25)
"When you get saved, you get saved not because you deserve it, but because you simply let God save you and because you confess your own poor sinful state and your inability to save yourself." Dr. John R. Rice
"Repentance is the recognition of my sinnership — the owning before God that I am as vile as He has declared me to be in His holy Word." Pastor Harry Ironside
Clearly, Ironside taught a Free Grace view of the Gospel. H.A. Ironside correctly recognized repentance as the confession that "one is utterly without merit" and that if one is "ever saved at all it can only be through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ." Salvation is without works of self-righteousness. Romans 4:5 plainly teaches that a man's faith is counted for righteousness, i.e., the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to one's heavenly record by faith. Repentance and faith are inseparable. The Gospel of John mentions the word "believe" 85-times; but the word "repent" is never mentioned even once. In genuine salvation, one who believes on Jesus Christ has repented; and one who repents has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
lifeisgood
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Justification comes first, because God cannot sanctify you if you do not belong to Him.
Justification declares one clean --- exclusively through Jesus Christ and His Work on the Cross of Calvary --- NOT by anything we do/want/can/cannot do. Justification is totally, completely, exclusively from God.
Sanctification makes one clean and it is a lifelong process until one die or is raptured. Sanctification is the process of being conformed to His image.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The question of justification and transformation being first or not is misquestioned. Justification is needed by anyone who has a past! It is needed at all times about our past. Justification is the declaration by God that we are not condemned for our sins because Christ is imputed to us. No person advances beyond need of that, and it will be needed on the day of judgement "just to get in" so to speak.
It inspires transformation, but there is no temporal connection.
Justification is not an inner change that happens earlier in our life. That is why, if we do not understand the legal or sin-debt implications of it (Lk 7), we may dismiss it as less useful than conscious effort to change our selves. It is not. It is an ongoing motivation, not an initial change. The young believer may be very impressed with the first change God makes in him, and that is fine, but the next 1000 changes are just as impressive as far as God and the angels are concerned, and none are what justification provided.
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Certainly the righteous of OT times didn't have a clue as to your explanation of things. What would you say to them if you could transport yourself back to their time frame?