The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[steko]

I said nowhere in the NT does Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, or any other NT writer even hint of a future earthly kingdom.

So what do you do, you quote OT verses.

The NT verses that you did quote don't even hint that the kingdom is on planet earth.



No, I'm the one who says all OT prophecies have been fulfilled.



Don't make me laugh steko. You have to twist verses into a pretzel to make the false teachings of Darby fit the Bible.

You can't give one verse in the NT that says anything about a future kingdom on planet earth, a third temple, the Jews coming back to the Middle East, etc.

I quoted Luke's quote of the angel Gabriel and then correlated it with
the promise of the establishment and perpetuation of the Davidic dynasty and throne in IISam7.
Then I located the throne according to IIChron 29: 26.
And finally I quoted Matthew's quotation of the LORD Jesus when He tied together His second coming with His then sitting on the throne of His glory and judging the nations.

Too bad you don't believe them. You can laugh in unbelief all you want.
I believe it just as it says.

 

[tetelestai]

So you are now saying that the Lord Jesus had returned by the time of the events of Acts 15!

No, I'm saying that David's Tent was rebuilt. It stood from 30AD - 70AD

Then in 70AD Jesus sat down on the throne in His kingdom.

It's the same thing that happened with David's Tent and Solomon's Temple (the shadow).

 

[tetelestai]

I quoted Luke's quote of the angel Gabriel and then correlated it with
the promise of the establishment and perpetuation of the Davidic dynasty and throne in IISam7.
Then I located the throne according to IIChron 29: 26.
And finally I quoted Matthew's quotation of the LORD Jesus when He tied together His second coming with His then sitting on the throne of His glory and judging the nations.

Yes I know, but nowhere is there anything about planet earth.

Too bad you don't believe them. You can laugh in unbelief all you want.
I believe it just as it says.

You add your teachings of Darby to the passages.

You add planet earth.

The book of Hebrews makes it crystal clear that the temple was a "copy and a shadow" of what was in Heaven.

Why do you have Christ Jesus sitting in a "copy and shadow" instead of the true temple in Heaven?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, I know the original throne was on planet earth.

However, the throne and everything else about the Old Covenant were a shadow of what was to come.

According to your ideas the throne of David was originally an earthly throne but the LORD altered the promise He made to David that the throne would for ever be an earthly throne. However, the LORD said that He would not alter the promises He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

You think Jesus is going to reign in a "copy and shadow" instead of reigning in the real thing.

You think that the Lord altered the promises He made under the Davidic Covenant even though He said He would do no such thing. The Davidic Covenant was in regard to earthly things, but you say that the LORD altered those promises to make them heavenly realities despite the fact that the LORD said that He would not alter those promises.

 

[tetelestai]

According to your ideas the throne of David was originally an earthly throne but the LORD altered the promise He made to David that the throne would for ever be an earthly throne.

What a loaded question.

Nowhere does the Lord say anything about the throne being an earthly throne forever.

BTW, just where is this earthly throne that allegedly was supposed to last forever?

However, the LORD said that He would not alter the promises He made to David:

Again, nothing about earthly in the promise. You keep adding it even though it's not there.

You think that the Lord altered the promises He made under the Davidic Covenant even though He said He would do no such thing.

Do you know what a "shadow" is?

The Davidic Covenant was in regard to earthly things, but you say that the LORD altered those promises to make them heavenly realities despite the fact that the LORD said that He would not alter those promises.

The Davidic Covenant was a promise that the Messiah would come through the lineage of David and Judah and that He would establish a kingdom that would last forever.

(2 Sam 7:13) He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

The above kind of puts a damper on your earth being destroyed by fire theory.

According to you, the kingdom that lasts forever in 2 Sam 7:13 is an earthly kingdom. The verse says the kingdom lasts forever. Yet, you claim the earth is going to be destroyed by fire one day.

So which one is it Jerry? Does your earthly kingdom last forever, or does the earth get destroyed by fire?

 

[steko]

Yes I know, but nowhere is there anything about planet earth.

The context of much of Mt 24 and 25 concerns the second coming to earth and is confirmed by the Lord in 25:30- where the Lord judges the nations on the earth as to how they treated His brethren.

You add your teachings of Darby to the passages.

Never read your favorite Darby.

You add planet earth

.

Planet earth is the context.

The book of Hebrews makes it crystal clear that the temple was a "copy and a shadow" of what was in Heaven.

Why do you have Christ Jesus sitting in a "copy and shadow" instead of the true temple in Heaven?

Not me. You'll have to take it up with the Lord when you see Him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, you can't be this dense

James was quoting Amos.

You are the dense one. These words in "bold" were the words of James:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up" (Acts 15:16).​

Just look at the prophecy at Amos 9:11 and it is clear that the words in "bold" are not found in that prophecy but instead are the words of James.

And the Greek word translated "I will return" is in the future tense. So James did not believe that the prophecy of Amos was being fulfilled at the time then present. But you cannot even understand these simple things and you said:

The reason James quoted Amos was to show that Amos' prophecy was being fulfilled right before their eyes.

Even though James placed the fulfillment of the prophecy of Amos in the future you said that it was happening right then and there.

So according to your view the Lord Jesus returned at the time of the events described at Acts 15 and then returned again in 70 AD. How many more returns of the Lord Jesus which have already happened do you have?

 

[tetelestai]

The context of much of Mt 24 and 25 concerns the second coming to earth

Nowhere in Matt 24 or 25 does it say the Lord comes to planet earth.

and is confirmed by the Lord in 25:30

Matt 25:30 is a parable.

where the Lord judges the nations on the earth as to how they treated His brethren.

It doesn't say "on the earth"

It's amazing how you guys have to keep adding stuff to different passages to make them say what they don't.

Nowhere in the NT does it say Jesus comes back to planet earth.

 

[tetelestai]

You are the dense one. These words in "bold" were the words of James:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up" (Acts 15:16).​

Just look at the prophecy at Amos 9:11 and it is clear that the words in "bold" are not found in that prophecy but instead are the words of James.

And the Greek word translated "I will return" is in the future tense. So James did not believe that the prophecy of Amos was being fulfilled at the time then present. But you cannot even understand these simple things and you said:

Apparently you are that dense.

Read the previous verse in Acts 15

(Acts 15:15) The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

Even though James placed the fulfillment of the prophecy of Amos in the future you said that it was happening right then and there.

James didn't place the fulfillment in the future.

James quoted Amos

So according to your view the Lord Jesus returned at the time of the events described at Acts 15 and then returned again in 70 AD. How many more returns of the Lord Jesus which have already happened do you have?

Jesus didn't return in Acts 15.

It's about David's Tent and the Gentiles.

 

[steko]

Nowhere in Matt 24 or 25 does it say the Lord comes to planet earth.



Matt 25:30 is a parable.



It doesn't say "on the earth"

It's amazing how you guys have to keep adding stuff to different passages to make them say what they don't.

Nowhere in the NT does it say Jesus comes back to planet earth.

Round and round we go over the same old ground.
Must be somethin' t' do with that Derby you keep talkin' 'bout.
Beginnin' to feel like Lil' Sambo and the Tiger.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nowhere in the NT does it say Jesus comes back to planet earth.

What about the OT? Who is being spoken of here:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).​

And here?:

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job.19:25-26).​

 

[steko]

What about the OT? Who is being spoken of here:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).​

And here?:

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job.19:25-26).​

Yeah, and how about that great valley thru the Mount of Olives caused by that earthquake. I think they built an interstate highway thru it.
Nah...must be metaphor....maybe a parable. Anyway....it has to be a shadow!

 

[tetelestai]

Round and round we go over the same old ground.

Yes, you keep claiming Jesus is going to come back go planet earth....I ask for NT verses that say so......and you can't give me any.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

James quoted Amos

You should look for yourself at the prophecy of Amos:

"In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old" (Amos 9:11).

James didn't quote the words in "bold" but instead said the following:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up" (Acts 15:16).​

James placed the return of the Lord Jesus in the future because the Greek words translated "I will return" is in the future tense. Despite this you said:

The reason James quoted Amos was to show that Amos' prophecy was being fulfilled right before their eyes.

If the prophecy of Amos was being fulfilled at the time of Acts 15 then that can only mean that the Lord Jesus' return was happening right then.

But now you deny that the prophecy concerning the Lord's return was happening right them:

Jesus didn't return in Acts 15.

You theology is so goofy that I can see why no one takes you seriously.

 

[tetelestai]

Correct me if I missed it but I don't recall you commenting on the conditional mood of Matthew 24's "this generation" passage, or the particle an found therein. Tet simply denies it because he can't get it to compute.

One really, really, big problem with your conditional mood theory for Matt 24:34

Here it is:

(Mark 13:30 KJV) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Your particle "an" is not found in the verse like it is in Matt 24:34 and Luke 21:32

Here's the Greek:

amhn legw umin oti ou mh parelqh h genea auth mecriV ou panta tauta genhtai

As we see above there is no "an" in the verse. Which means no secret subjunctive mood.

So...it looks like you can now join Jerry or STP and adopt one of their excuses as to why Matt 24:34 doesn't really mean what it says now that your excuse has been destroyed.

 

[steko]

Yes, you keep claiming Jesus is going to come back go planet earth....I ask for NT verses that say so......and you can't give me any.

You're blind to it.

 

[tetelestai]

James didn't quote the words in "bold" but instead said the following:

Then according to you James lied.

Right before your bolded words James said "as it is written".

James placed the return of the Lord Jesus in the future because the Greek words translated "I will return" is in the future tense. Despite this you said:

No James didn't.

Look what James said after he quoted Amos:

(Acts 15:19) It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

Why did James say that about the Gentiles?

ANSWER: Because that was part of Amos' prophecy

(Acts 15:17) that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name,

If the prophecy of Amos was being fulfilled at the time of Acts 15 then that can only mean that the Lord Jesus' return was happening right then.

The prophecy is about David's Tent, not the Lord's return.

In your twisted world of defending Darby, when does David's Tent happen?

Dispensationalism completely ignores David's Tent because Darby forgot to mention it.

 

[tetelestai]

You're blind to it.

You can't show one verse that says what you claim.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, you keep claiming Jesus is going to come back go planet earth....I ask for NT verses that say so......and you can't give me any.

He already has:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Just because you say that it is a parable means nothing. Of course you know that you have to say something about that verse but can't you do better than that? That is pitiful!

 

[tetelestai]

He already has:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Just because you say that it is a parable means nothing. Of course you know that you have to say something about that verse but can't you do better than that? That is pitiful!

Nothing in Matt 25:31 that says Jesus comes to planet earth.

Nothing in Matt 25:31 that says the throne of His glory is on planet earth.