The Perversion of Libertarianism

[LightSon]

And I'll just say that I have already debated aCultureWarrior on this issue and post after post he would not seriously address my most salient points.

Here are the points he has yet to answer:

1) He has not answered whether he accepts the idea of self ownership, a central principle in liberty. As John Locke, the Christian philosopher said, "Every man has a property in his own person." aCultureWarrior says he has answered it but he confuses it with "free will". Free will is a completely different concept then self ownership. To make my point, I'm sure the "Great Leader" of North Korea believes his subjects have the "free will" or the choice to disobey him but we all know that the citizens of that country are treated no less than the "Great Leader's" property as he has sovereign control over them. Free will is not self ownership. BTW, when John Locke says "self ownership" he is not referring to one's rights as they pertain to God, but as they pertain to other people, especially governments.

2) I put forward a philosophical argument that self ownership is axiomatic. Self ownership fits the bill well to be an axiom because one cannot argue against it without presupposing it. If aCultureWarrior argues against self ownership, for example, he is in essence affirming his ownership over his own mind (i.e. self ownership).

3) I have asked him why certain sins should be illegal and others not. I have accused him of being arbitrary in singling out certain sins and ignoring others. His list is based on emotion rather than logic. He has not answered this point as well.

4) I have pointed out that governments set a dangerous precedent in denying self ownership to its citizens, even in the conservative attempt to make homosexual activity illegal, and has far reaching implications. Once a precedent is set (and it has already been set by the left and the right)for the state to be the "moral guide" for citizens by using coercion (sounds scary, doesn't it?), the left or any other non-Christian group can justify forcing people, including Christians, to conform to their own standards of right and wrong. Consider how the left keeps trying to force Christians to provide money for abortions.

5) I also argued that as Christians we live in two kingdoms; the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of man. I pointed out that aCulteralWarrior is confusing the two - theocratic tendencies exist in his thinking. We live, as Christians, in both kingdoms. We have rights in the Kingdom of man that we don't have in the Kingdom of God, self ownership being one of them.

6) Lastly, I argued that sCulteralWarrior is attempting to transform culture from a position of human power, rather than through a position of human weakness. This stems from his confusion of the two Kingdoms. He prefers to put his trust in the powers of a civil government than the power of the Gospel, which Paul calls the Power of God unto salvation. It is through the "foolishness" of preaching the the culture is transformed, not through the coercive powers of the state. He would rather throw the sinner into prison with handcuffs and guns than lead him to church where he can hear the message of Christ. He has the idea that if we just get the right people in office, vote the right way, we can have our "righteous government" that will "force" America to be righteous. Funny how Christ and the apostles never thought of that!

So I just put a fair amount of time into writing this post and I will only debate this issue if people actually put forward well thought out answers on the subject. Otherwise I am just going to pass on this.

Interesting and adroit synopsis cellist; I look forward to your musings.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Libertarianism is a free market economy based on Austrian economics and then minding your own business.

As dumb as you play here on TOL, I know that you're well versed in politics and especially Libertarian politics (you're having the time of your life fooling these good people here on TOL aren't you?).

Tell us about Austrian economics and when it comes to social policies what "minding your own business" entails.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Interesting and adroit synopsis cellist; I look forward to your musings.

If cellist should decide to return to the thread, he can "muse" this post:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...bertarianism&p=4645756&viewfull=1#post4645756

 

[patrick jane]

Panhandling. According to Libertarians, this is a "victimless crime".

Does anyone see a victim here? I see many.

No victim, if anybody gives then they wanted to, noboday has to. Victimless

 

[aCultureWarrior]

No victim, if anybody gives then they wanted to, noboday has to. Victimless

So a person that destroys his own life isn't a victim to his poor decisions?

 

[patrick jane]

Christian libertarians believe these principles are supported by the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, which are recorded in the Bible, and His criticism of the laws (Halakha) observed by the Pharisees. For example, in Jesus' day, it was prohibited to heal someone on the Sabbath, because this was considered doing actual work on the mandated day ofrest and worship. He opposed the Pharisees due to their self-righteous, man-made regulations added to God's law, which they obeyed outwardly, but with the wrong inward motivation. Also, most Christians believe the ceremonial and civic laws found in the Old Testament have been superseded by the New Covenant. For these reasons, Christian libertarians may consider Jesus as the greatest libertarian in history.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Christian libertarians believe these principles are supported by the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, which are recorded in the Bible, and His criticism of the laws (Halakha) observed by the Pharisees. For example, in Jesus' day, it was prohibited to heal someone on the Sabbath, because this was considered doing actual work on the mandated day ofrest and worship.
He opposed the Pharisees due to their self-righteous, man-made regulations added to God's law, which they obeyed outwardly, but with the wrong inward motivation. Also, most Christians believe the ceremonial and civic laws found in the Old Testament have been superseded by the New Covenant. For these reasons, Christian libertarians may consider Jesus as the greatest libertarian in history.

Jesus rescinded Jewish ceremonial laws (which deals with observing the Sabbath), but never renounced God's universal moral code (which deals with amongst other things sexual sins).

P.S. I over estimated your intelligence.

 

[patrick jane]

Panhandling. According to Libertarians, this is a "victimless crime".

Does anyone see a victim here? I see many.

Actually the businesses and residents are victims, so is the kid. He doesn't look old enough to drink and he's asking for an illegal substance. He's not really hurting anyone and the police should move him along shortly, all it takes is one complaint; one phone call and he's out of business.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Actually the businesses and residents are victims, so is the kid. He doesn't look old enough to drink and he's asking for an illegal substance. He's not really hurting anyone and the police should move him along shortly, all it takes is one complaint; one phone call and he's out of business.

You just contradicted yourself.

Thanks for stopping by.

 

[patrick jane]

You just contradicted yourself.

Thanks for stopping by.

What victims do you see, you never said.

 

[patrick jane]

You just contradicted yourself.

Thanks for stopping by.

Hardly, it all boils down to - if anyone is stupid enough to give him money, that's what he hopes for.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

What victims do you see, you never said.

The panhandler because he's not holding himself up to a higher standard.

Businesses: Street people are notorious for shoplifting and leaving needles in restrooms, stairwells and urinating and defecating in doorways, etc.

Society at large: Because the culture mores' and laws aren't holding individuals up to a higher standard (being self sufficient).

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Continuing with Libertarian cellist's very strange post from page 1 (I'm still waiting for his response to this post:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...bertarianism&p=4645756&viewfull=1#post4645756

2) I put forward a philosophical argument that self ownership is axiomatic. Self ownership fits the bill well to be an axiom because one cannot argue against it without presupposing it. If aCultureWarrior argues against self ownership, for example, he is in essence affirming his ownership over his own mind (i.e. self ownership).

Aside from those with psychological problems, we're all able to control our thoughts and the actions that follow those thoughts. The Libertarian definition of self ownership is as follows:

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.
http://www.lp.org/platform

The Libertarian definition of self ownership is in direct contrast to Jesus's 2 greatest commandments:

Matthew 22:36-40

hence the reason one cannot call him or herself a "Libertarian" and still be a follower of Christ.

 

[annabenedetti]

The panhandler because he's not holding himself up to a higher standard.

Businesses: Street people are notorious for shoplifting and leaving needles in restrooms, stairwells and urinating and defecating in doorways, etc.

Society at large: Because the culture mores' and laws aren't holding individuals up to a higher standard (being self sufficient).

A man asked me for money a couple of months ago, it was during a stretch of particularly cold weather. As I was talking to him, he started to cry - he'd been sleeping on the cold ground and his arthritic shoulders and hands were hurting so badly he was beside himself with the pain. I told him the nearby church had a food pantry and other outreach services, but he explained to me their limitations, and how even a cheap motel room cost x number of dollars a night/week and there was no place for him to go. He told me his age, and it was clear life had been hard on him because he looked much older. He held out his hands to show me how they hurt so badly he couldn't carry his possessions. I gave him the cash I had on me and the Advil I had in my purse, and he gave me his name. I said I'd find some services he could access and I've been looking for him ever since but I haven't seen him again.

There are a lot - and I mean a lot - of homeless people in my area, a lot of mentally ill, a lot of poverty - surrounded by pockets of great wealth. It's a paradox of rich and poor, the Teslas and the shopping carts.

There is no issue of a "higher standard" here. You either have a heart - or you don't. All your high and mighty "higher standards" are desiccated babbling in the face of such human misery.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
The panhandler because he's not holding himself up to a higher standard.

Businesses: Street people are notorious for shoplifting and leaving needles in restrooms, stairwells and urinating and defecating in doorways, etc.

Society at large: Because the culture mores' and laws aren't holding individuals up to a higher standard (being self sufficient).

A man asked me for money a couple of months ago, it was during a stretch of particularly cold weather. As I was talking to him, he started to cry - he'd been sleeping on the cold ground and his arthritic shoulders and hands were hurting so badly he was beside himself with the pain. I told him the nearby church had a food pantry and other outreach services, but he explained to me their limitations,

No drugs or alcohol: Limitations that many street people don't want to adhere to.
Did you ever ask this man how he ended up on the streets?

...and how even a cheap motel room cost x number of dollars a night/week and there was no place for him to go. He told me his age, and it was clear life had been hard on him because he looked much older. He held out his hands to show me how they hurt so badly he couldn't carry his possessions. I gave him the cash I had on me and the Advil I had in my purse, and he gave me his name. I said I'd find some services he could access and I've been looking for him ever since but I haven't seen him again.

There are a lot - and I mean a lot - of homeless people in my area, a lot of mentally ill, a lot of poverty - surrounded by pockets of great wealth. It's a paradox of rich and poor, the Teslas and the shopping carts.

It's an epidemic here in the Seattle area as well ("Hope n Change" liberalism/Libertariaism isn't working out well for our once great nation is it annna?)

There is no issue of a "higher standard" here. You either have a heart - or you don't. All your high and mighty "higher standards" are desiccated babbling in the face of such human misery.

The higher standard is found in the Bible. Human misery on a large scale is a result of secular humanist man's failure to acknowledge God’s Wisdom as seen in Holy Scripture. Drug and alcohol addiction, broken families, disease, poor economic conditions, etc.

Yet you liberals and your Libertarian counterparts never have the desire to learn from your failed policies. You of course feel better about your failed policies by giving a down trodden man a few bucks and some advil. I see it all of the time in this liberal bastion of a city.

 

[annabenedetti]

No drugs or alcohol: Limitations that many street people don't want to adhere to.

An easy way to let yourself off the hook, isn't it? Why feel compassion when self-satisfaction is so much more comfortable?

Did you ever ask this man how he ended up on the streets?

There's a time and a place for everything. If I saw him regularly, I might know eventually. Would the circumstances which led him to where he is make any difference to you? I doubt it.

The higher standard is found in the Bible. Human misery on a large scale is a result of secular humanist man's failure to acknowledge God’s Wisdom as seen in Holy Scripture. Drug and alcohol addiction, broken families, disease, poor economic conditions, etc.

Yet you liberals and your Libertarian counterparts never have the desire to learn from your failed policies. You of course feel better about your failed policies by giving a down trodden man a few bucks and some advil. I see it all of the time in this liberal bastion of a city.

No. I didn't feel better.

And if the higher standard is found in the Bible... you'd better keep searching because I don't think you've found it yet.

 

[patrick jane]

Street people vote Cruz

 

[steko]

Street people vote Cruz

I'm a dirt road person. :noid:

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
No drugs or alcohol: Limitations that many street people don't want to adhere to.

An easy way to let yourself off the hook, isn't it? Why feel compassion when self-satisfaction is so much more comfortable?

Need I go back a couple of pages and show the picture of the young panhandler holding a sign asking for beer and pot money? (Substance abuse is a huge problem amongst street people).

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Did you ever ask this man how he ended up on the streets?

There's a time and a place for everything. If I saw him regularly, I might know eventually. Would the circumstances which led him to where he is make any difference to you? I doubt it.

If that time and place ever should happen and my suspicions are confirmed, come back and tell your Libertarian allies that the self ownership doctrine (“It’s MY body and I can damn well do with it as I please!”) didn’t work out well for this man.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
The higher standard is found in the Bible. Human misery on a large scale is a result of secular humanist man's failure to acknowledge God’s Wisdom as seen in Holy Scripture. Drug and alcohol addiction, broken families, disease, poor economic conditions, etc.

Yet you liberals and your Libertarian counterparts never have the desire to learn from your failed policies. You of course feel better about your failed policies by giving a down trodden man a few bucks and some advil. I see it all of the time in this liberal bastion of a city.

No. I didn't feel better

Not even when you turned your back and walked away from the problem that you liberals/Libertarians have created?

And if the higher standard is found in the Bible... you'd better keep searching because I don't think you've found it yet.

Remember that I read a different Bible than what you and your fellow pagans like patrick jane read. Mine says to “love thy neighbor as you’d love yourself”, which means that I can’t very well love my neighbor and support laws that allows him to kill himself while destroying other lives as well.

 

[Rusha]

Did you ever ask this man how he ended up on the streets?

Have you asked? Did you believe the person? IF you asked ... why did you ask? Did you genuinely care and want to help?