The Perversion of Libertarianism

[aCultureWarrior]

It's rare that people who embrace Libertarian ideology show their faces on a Christian website, because the two ideologies inherently conflict with one another. Most Libertarians use words like "freedom" and "liberty" to describe their ideology (which is backed by a political movement), but fail to realize that in the context that they're using those words really means that individuals and society at large are being enslaved to sin.

So as to not to continue to derail this thread,
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Donald-Trump&p=4643521&viewfull=1#post4643521


I'm bringing the conversation here and inviting other Libertarians to join in on the conversation.

As you can see from the above link, when you hard press a Libertarian to face up to the realities of their godless doctrine, they'll admit that things like homosexuality, incest and recreational drug use (not just marijuana, but crack cocaine and heroin as well) should be legalized.

Unless a Libertarian can come forward and give an explanation as to what Libertarian doctrine entails, then the preamble to the Libertarian Party Platform will be used to discuss (and expose) what Libertarian doctrine really is.

"As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power."
http://www.lp.org/platform


For those of you that will be following this thread and have an ounce of decency in your body (provided TOL's Libertarians want to come forward and expose their godless doctrine), I'd advise you to go out and buy some delousing powder, as showering numerous times after reading one of their posts just isn't enough to get the feeling of creepy-crawly pests off of your body.

 

[TomO]

Oh look....ACW has started a thread and would like others to join him.

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[ok doser]

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[HisServant]

The government cannot free you from sin, only Jesus can.

What we want is a culture where we are free to witness and worship as we so chose... right now, neither the democrats or republicans support that kind of culture... they both want to outlaw certain types of thought that are of no harm except to the individual.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

The government cannot free you from sin, only Jesus can.

So true, but what about those who don't wish to be free? Should we abolish government (which was ordained by God to rule righteously) and let anarchy rule? Or perhaps we should allow government to continue to be run by secular humanists who want to keep things like abortion, homosexuality and pornography legal?

What we want is a culture where we are free to witness and worship as we so chose... right now, neither the democrats or republicans support that kind of culture... they both want to outlaw certain types of thought that are of no harm except to the individual.

This thread isn't about "thoughts", it's about (Libertarian) ideology turned into action. But since you brought up the word "thoughts", how would government outlaw something that an individual is "thinking"?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Oh look....ACW has started a thread and would like others to join him.

View attachment 23612

View attachment 23613

Don't be shy boyz, I know that you both have very strong Libertarian leanings. Join in the thread and make me look like the fool that you think I am.

 

[ok doser]

you're doing fine all by yourself

 

[aCultureWarrior]

you're doing fine all by yourself

Then I assume you'll be trolling elsewhere, or can I expect further disruption from someone who is too ashamed of godless Libertarian doctrine to admit that he is one?

 

[ok doser]

Then I assume you'll be trolling elsewhere...

i'll be trolling here, i'll be trolling there, i'll be trolling everywhere! :banana:

, or can I expect further disruption

seems likely! :banana::banana:

 

[ok doser]

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:darwinsm:

 

[HisServant]

So true, but what about those who don't wish to be free? Should we abolish government (which was ordained by God to rule righteously) and let anarchy rule? Or perhaps we should allow government to continue to be run by secular humanists who want to keep things like abortion, homosexuality and pornography legal?

So what if it is legal? And yes, I want it to be run by secularists, otherwise it will eventually be run by Mormons, or SDA's or Baptists and we will be forced to conform to their doctrines.

This thread isn't about "thoughts", it's about (Libertarian) ideology turned into action. But since you brought up the word "thoughts", how would government outlaw something that an individual is "thinking"?

I don't know, but that is the end result of the road you are taking.

Libertarianism is the what Christ died for.. to give us individual liberty..

Why do you have so little faith in him... so much so that you feel obliged to usurp his authority?

 

[TomO]

i'll be trolling here, i'll be trolling there, i'll be trolling everywhere! banana:

 

[cellist]

Don't waste your time

Don't waste your time

And I'll just say that I have already debated aCultureWarrior on this issue and post after post he would not seriously address my most salient points.

Here are the points he has yet to answer:

1) He has not answered whether he accepts the idea of self ownership, a central principle in liberty. As John Locke, the Christian philosopher said, "Every man has a property in his own person." aCultureWarrior says he has answered it but he confuses it with "free will". Free will is a completely different concept then self ownership. To make my point, I'm sure the "Great Leader" of North Korea believes his subjects have the "free will" or the choice to disobey him but we all know that the citizens of that country are treated no less than the "Great Leader's" property as he has sovereign control over them. Free will is not self ownership. BTW, when John Locke says "self ownership" he is not referring to one's rights as they pertain to God, but as they pertain to other people, especially governments.

2) I put forward a philosophical argument that self ownership is axiomatic. Self ownership fits the bill well to be an axiom because one cannot argue against it without presupposing it. If aCultureWarrior argues against self ownership, for example, he is in essence affirming his ownership over his own mind (i.e. self ownership).

3) I have asked him why certain sins should be illegal and others not. I have accused him of being arbitrary in singling out certain sins and ignoring others. His list is based on emotion rather than logic. He has not answered this point as well.

4) I have pointed out that governments set a dangerous precedent in denying self ownership to its citizens, even in the conservative attempt to make homosexual activity illegal, and has far reaching implications. Once a precedent is set (and it has already been set by the left and the right)for the state to be the "moral guide" for citizens by using coercion (sounds scary, doesn't it?), the left or any other non-Christian group can justify forcing people, including Christians, to conform to their own standards of right and wrong. Consider how the left keeps trying to force Christians to provide money for abortions.

5) I also argued that as Christians we live in two kingdoms; the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of man. I pointed out that aCulteralWarrior is confusing the two - theocratic tendencies exist in his thinking. We live, as Christians, in both kingdoms. We have rights in the Kingdom of man that we don't have in the Kingdom of God, self ownership being one of them.

6) Lastly, I argued that sCulteralWarrior is attempting to transform culture from a position of human power, rather than through a position of human weakness. This stems from his confusion of the two Kingdoms. He prefers to put his trust in the powers of a civil government than the power of the Gospel, which Paul calls the Power of God unto salvation. It is through the "foolishness" of preaching the the culture is transformed, not through the coercive powers of the state. He would rather throw the sinner into prison with handcuffs and guns than lead him to church where he can hear the message of Christ. He has the idea that if we just get the right people in office, vote the right way, we can have our "righteous government" that will "force" America to be righteous. Funny how Christ and the apostles never thought of that!

So I just put a fair amount of time into writing this post and I will only debate this issue if people actually put forward well thought out answers on the subject. Otherwise I am just going to pass on this.

 

[TomO]

And I'll just say that I have already debated aCultureWarrior on this issue and post after post he would not seriously address my most salient points.

:noway: Shocked!....Yes, shocked I am!

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

So true, but what about those who don't wish to be free? Should we abolish government (which was ordained by God to rule righteously) and let anarchy rule? Or perhaps we should allow government to continue to be run by secular humanists who want to keep things like abortion, homosexuality and pornography legal?

So what if it is legal? And yes, I want it to be run by secularists,

So you're perfectly fine with 58 million unborn babies being murdered in the womb in a 43 year span? You're perfectly fine with young children being indoctrinated to the ways of perversion via the homosexual agenda?
You're perfectly fine with families being destroyed by pornography and recreational drug use?

I don't know if you worship the same God as I do, but His 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as you'd love yourself. How can you love your neighbor if you're encouraging immoral behavior through immoral laws?

otherwise it will eventually be run by Mormons, or SDA's or Baptists and we will be forced to conform to their doctrines.

The thought of someone being the President of the United States who doesn't go to my church is horrifying (sarcasm). I guess you're not overly concerned with the guy who has held the Office for the past 8 years and spent 20 years before that in a "Black Liberation Theology" church?

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

This thread isn't about "thoughts", it's about (Libertarian) ideology turned into action. But since you brought up the word "thoughts", how would government outlaw something that an individual is "thinking"?

I don't know, but that is the end result of the road you are taking.

So legislating righteous (moral) laws somehow involves punishing people for what they are thinking?

Libertarianism is the what Christ died for.. to give us individual liberty..

Liberty from sin, not to sin, and that's the role of a righteous civil government: to lead people away from sinful behavior.

Why do you have so little faith in him... so much so that you feel obliged to usurp his authority?

Since God ordained civil government as one of three institutions for the governance of man (the family and Church being the other two), I don't understand why Christians such as yourself don't acknowledge the other institutions that God ordained.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by, this thread was created for those who wish to defend the godlessness of the current Libertarian movement, not the "My church is better than your church!" crowd.

 

[HisServant]

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

So true, but what about those who don't wish to be free? Should we abolish government (which was ordained by God to rule righteously) and let anarchy rule? Or perhaps we should allow government to continue to be run by secular humanists who want to keep things like abortion, homosexuality and pornography legal?

Why are you so fixed on other peoples perceived sins while you obviously have a rail road tie sticking out of your head.

So you're perfectly fine with 58 million unborn babies being murdered in the womb in a 43 year span? You're perfectly fine with young children being indoctrinated to the ways of perversion via the homosexual agenda?
You're perfectly fine with families being destroyed by pornography and recreational drug use?

No, I am not particularly happy with all the abortions... what makes me the most unhappy is how the supposed Christians opposing it are all blowhards and don't compassionately work with women to make bringing a baby to full term a viable option for them. Are you perfectly happy letting the government do the work you should be doing?

I don't know if you worship the same God as I do, but His 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as you'd love yourself. How can you love your neighbor if you're encouraging immoral behavior through immoral laws?

I don't see any love (only legalism) in what you are trying to do... Jesus would be ashamed of you.

The thought of someone being the President of the United States who doesn't go to my church is horrifying (sarcasm). I guess you're not overly concerned with the guy who has held the Office for the past 8 years and spent 20 years before that in a "Black Liberation Theology" church?

Doesn't bother me at all... the pendulum swings in this country and eventually everything Obama has done, will be undone... Just like Obama undid a lot of what Bush did, etc.

Since God ordained civil government as one of three institutions for the governance of man (the family and Church being the other two), I don't understand why Christians such as yourself don't acknowledge the other institutions that God ordained.

Jesus did nothing to change the Pagan government of his time... you would have a beef with him too. As far as the 'church' governing, since no church currently operating today operates in a manner as shown in scripture, I find that an interesting statement.

As far as family, Jesus and Apostles were pretty ambivalent about that supposed 'institution' He encouraged people not to get married unless they couldn't control themselves. They treated it as a lesser evil.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by, this thread was created for those who wish to defend the godlessness of the current Libertarian movement, not the "My church is better than your church!" crowd.

You should really go back and study your bible before you continue to show yourself to be a fool.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

And I'll just say that I have already debated aCultureWarrior on this issue and post after post he would not seriously address my most salient points...

As I recall we left off in another thread where you defended not only homosexuality, but a daughter having sex (as long as it was 'consensual') with her father (I warned you folks, go out buy some delousing powder immediately if you're going to follow this thread).

How about sex with animals? How do Libertarians feel about that?

Before I answer your theoretical post, let's establish how sick (perverted) the Libertarian movement is by wanting to legalize (and keep legal) things like homosexuality, incest, recreational drug use, prostitution, suicide, etc. etc. etc.

Welcome to reality cellist: Your godless doctrine destroys lives and nations and I'm not going to allow you to ignore that fact.

 

[HisServant]

As I recall we left off in another thread where you defended not only homosexuality, but a daughter having sex (as long as it was 'consensual') with her father (I warned you folks, go out buy some delousing powder immediately if you're going to follow this thread).

How about sex with animals? How do Libertarians feel about that?

Before I answer your theoretical post, let's establish how sick (perverted) the Libertarian movement is by wanting to legalize (and keep legal) things like homosexuality, incest, recreational drug use, prostitution, suicide, etc. etc. etc.

Welcome to reality cellist: Your godless doctrine destroys lives and nations and I'm not going to allow you to ignore that fact.

Do you think God wants america to last forever?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
So true, but what about those who don't wish to be free? Should we abolish government (which was ordained by God to rule righteously) and let anarchy rule? Or perhaps we should allow government to continue to be run by secular humanists who want to keep things like abortion, homosexuality and pornography legal?

Why are you so fixed on other peoples perceived sins while you obviously have a rail road tie sticking out of your head.

I think that we can establish that you are an anarchist.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anarchy?s=t

Do believe that God is one?

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
So you're perfectly fine with 58 million unborn babies being murdered in the womb in a 43 year span? You're perfectly fine with young children being indoctrinated to the ways of perversion via the homosexual agenda?
You're perfectly fine with families being destroyed by pornography and recreational drug use?

No, I am not particularly happy with all the abortions... what makes me the most unhappy is how the supposed Christians opposing it are all blowhards and don't compassionately work with women to make bringing a baby to full term a viable option for them. Are you perfectly happy letting the government do the work you should be doing?

If God had only ordained one institution to govern man (the Church) you'd have a point, but He didn't. Civil government has a role to legislate righteously and enforce those laws so that they will help morally confused people.

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
I don't know if you worship the same God as I do, but His 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as you'd love yourself. How can you love your neighbor if you're encouraging immoral behavior through immoral laws?

I don't see any love (only legalism) in what you are trying to do... Jesus would be ashamed of you.

While I normally don't spend too much time with the "My church is better than your church!" crowd, I'm making an exception for you.

If you believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God in the flesh is an anarchist like yourself and doesn't believe in the rule of law, then make your case (show me where he went to the civil magistrates and demanded that all civil laws be renounced).

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

The thought of someone being the President of the United States who doesn't go to my church is horrifying (sarcasm). I guess you're not overly concerned with the guy who has held the Office for the past 8 years and spent 20 years before that in a "Black Liberation Theology" church?

Doesn't bother me at all... the pendulum swings in this country and eventually everything Obama has done, will be undone... Just like Obama undid a lot of what Bush did, etc.

Undone by who? Remember that you're an anarchist and can't expect righteous leaders to undo immoral legislation (and let me help you with your history: legal abortion has been around 35 years before B. Hussein Obama became President).

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

Since God ordained civil government as one of three institutions for the governance of man (the family and Church being the other two), I don't understand why Christians such as yourself don't acknowledge the other institutions that God ordained.
Jesus did nothing to change the Pagan government of his time... you would have a beef with him too. As far as the 'church' governing, since no church currently operating today operates in a manner as shown in scripture, I find that an interesting statement.

As far as family, Jesus and Apostles were pretty ambivalent about that supposed 'institution' He encouraged people not to get married unless they couldn't control themselves. They treated it as a lesser evil.

Did He ever encourage homosexual 'marriage'?

Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

Anyway, thanks for stopping by, this thread was created for those who wish to defend the godlessness of the current Libertarian movement, not the "My church is better than your church!" crowd.

You should really go back and study your bible before you continue to show yourself to be a fool.

My Bible has a lot of passages and verses about the role of civil government. Anytime that you want to get together and view them give me a holler.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Do you think God wants america to last forever?

Not in the state that it's in.