The origins of abiotic species

gcthomas

New member
Introducing a third logical fallacy
<<'TripeBot auto-response #4>>

That's because you hate reading.
<<'TripeBot auto-response #2>>

Let me guess: Evolutionist, right?
<<'TripeBot auto-response #5>>

You are starting to repeat your auto-responses, Stripe. Haven't you got enough content-free non-contributing meaningless drivel to offer us? Repeats are so boring and unimaginative.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
<<'TripeBot auto-response #4>><<'TripeBot auto-response #2>><<'TripeBot auto-response #5>>You are starting to repeat your auto-responses, Stripe. Haven't you got enough content-free non-contributing meaningless drivel to offer us? Repeats are so boring and unimaginative.

Nope. Unlike an evolutionist, when I accuse someone of uttering a logical fallacy, I can point out exactly what they did and why it is wrong.

In this case, you accused 6 of "claiming that evolutionists reject God," the fallacy of the straw man (along with another). When he denied ever making such a claim, you committed the fallacy of the false dichotomy by asserting that he does not "think evolutionists are rejecting God."

What you need to do is read what people write and respond to what they actually say, rather than making up things to respond to.

Meanwhile, the challenges to OP remain unanswered.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Not sure why you brought this over to this thread. Another way to avoid answering questions I guess.

Not really Jose. Mutations that have a beneficial outcome often, and perhaps always are a result of a loss of fitness.

Why, because you say so? Again, why do you think your unsupported, empty say-so carries any weight at all?

And in the example I provided, the net result was an increase in fitness.

For example some island species can be highly adapted (mutations and slection) to a very precise environment. However, they are unable to survive even slight enviromental change. They have lost some of the genetic info that existed in parent populations.

And other species, e.g., niche generalists, have evolved in the opposite direction, to where they can survive almost anywhere and in a variety of environments.

But it's interesting to see you make this argument. On one hand you try and argue that loss of specificity is a net negative, but here you are arguing that increased specificity is also a net negative.

Try and have it both ways much?

"What has happened? One amino acid has been replaced with a cysteine residue in a protein that normally assembles high density lipoproteins (HDLs), which are involved in removing ‘bad’ cholesterol from arteries. The mutant form of the protein is less effective at what it is supposed to do, but it does act as an antioxidant, which seems to prevent atherosclerosis (hardening of arteries). In fact, because of the added -SH on the cysteine, 70% of the proteins manufactured bind together in pairs (called dimers), restricting their usefulness. The 30% remaining do the job as an antioxidant. Because the protein is cleverly designed to target ‘hot spots’ in arteries and this targeting is preserved in the mutant form, the antioxidant activity is delivered to the same sites as the cholesterol-transporting HDLs.

IOW, the overall result is a net increase in fitness. Whatever decrease resulting from the reduction in HDLs is more than made up for by the increase in antioxidation. Also of note is that this discovered new evolutionary trait has led to new cardio-vascular disease treatments (rather than removing cholesterol, some now add in an antioxidant process similar to this one). So again we see how evolution adds to our understanding of biology, and directly leads to new medical advances.

In other words, specificity of the antioxidant activity (for lipids) does not lie with the mutation itself, but with the protein structure, which already existed, in which the mutation occurred. The specificity already existed in the wild-type A-I protein before the mutation occurred."

That's just stupid. The "specificity" he's talking about wouldn't even matter were it not for the mutation that allows it to act. Only the mutated form protects lipids from oxidation.

But then, we know how creationists read papers like this. They just go through it looking for excuses to wave it away and declare "It doesn't count".

Now in gaining an anti-oxidant activity, the protein has lost a lot of activity for making HDLs. So the mutant protein has sacrificed specificity. Since antioxidant activity is not a very specific activity (a great variety of simple chemicals will act as antioxidants), it would seem that the result of this mutation has been a net loss of specificity, or, in other words, information.

So wait....are you saying "specificity" = "genetic information"? That would help a lot, since none of you creationists seem to be able to say what "genetic information" is.
 

noguru

Well-known member
You have a poor understanding of science. Science is knowledge. Science is the search for truth. What you are promoting is religion. You start with the conclusion and try and shoe horn the evidence to fit.

Your religion causes you to be a history denier. Modern science was largely founded by scientists who believed that God did it. IE. God created.They believed that science was possible because the God of the Bible had created in an orderly fashion, making science and discovery possible. *

Oh the irony. Can you stop with the absurd melodrama and stick to the subject in the OP?

I am wondering why science rejected your view 150 years ago? :think:

Oh that's right, because the evidence contradicts your view. Yet you have the audacity to deny reality, claim you are doing science, and expect that people see your claims as credible.

:rotfl:

Newsflash to 6days:

You live in lala land. Go back and preach in your church. Where all the other brain dead gullible people are.

:shocked:

Wait this site is run by people like that. That's why you all come here claiming what you offer is science.

I tell you, this site has not changed. You still got a bunch of morons running around pretending to be astute.

:rotfl:
 

noguru

Well-known member
I am going to ask Stripe and 6days to leave this thread, please? You two are not offering anything that is relevant to the OP or science. So if you need to find a platform to broadcast your stupid theological views please use another thread. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Another article from the physics perspective.

In a paper in the Journal of Chemical Physics, he reported the theoretical minimum amount of dissipation that can occur during the self-replication of RNA molecules and bacterial cells, and showed that it is very close to the actual amounts these systems dissipate when replicating.

He also showed that RNA, the nucleic acid that many scientists believe served as the precursor to DNA-based life, is a particularly cheap building material. Once RNA arose, he argues, its “Darwinian takeover” was perhaps not surprising.

The chemistry of the primordial soup, random mutations, geography, catastrophic events and countless other factors have contributed to the fine details of Earth’s diverse flora and fauna. But according to England’s theory, the underlying principle driving the whole process is dissipation-driven adaptation of matter.
 

gcthomas

New member

It would be nice to see a verified physics theory underpinning evolution and abiogenesis. These theories are missing a fundamental physical principle to undergird them, and the idea that thermodynamics virtually requires life would be very satisfying.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
It would be nice to see a verified physics theory underpinning evolution and abiogenesis. These theories are missing a fundamental physical principle to undergird them, and the idea that thermodynamics virtually requires life would be very satisfying.

When you have something, let us know.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
It seems the science (knowledge [reasonably unquestioned facts] discovered through scientific means) is being used to try and prove a hypothesis(evolution) that has so many questions that it logically seems ridiculous to keep trying.

Then how can it all be? A power that scientific endeavors can not detect. How do you prove that? You can't with science. But you can with your heart and soul. His love ad Spirit confirms everything He says.
 

noguru

Well-known member
It seems the science (knowledge [reasonably unquestioned facts] discovered through scientific means) is being used to try and prove a hypothesis(evolution) that has so many questions that it logically seems ridiculous to keep trying.

Then how can it all be? A power that scientific endeavors can not detect. How do you prove that? You can't with science. But you can with your heart and soul. His love ad Spirit confirms everything He says.

Hey, I really don't care what "It seems the science discovered through scientific means" seems like to you. :kookoo:

I see nothing in anything you posted that demonstrates I should have any confidence in your judgement.

This thread is for science, not to use science as a platform to broadcast your theological beliefs. Got it?
 

noguru

Well-known member
Another article from the physics perspective.

In a paper in the Journal of Chemical Physics, he reported the theoretical minimum amount of dissipation that can occur during the self-replication of RNA molecules and bacterial cells, and showed that it is very close to the actual amounts these systems dissipate when replicating.

He also showed that RNA, the nucleic acid that many scientists believe served as the precursor to DNA-based life, is a particularly cheap building material. Once RNA arose, he argues, its “Darwinian takeover” was perhaps not surprising.

The chemistry of the primordial soup, random mutations, geography, catastrophic events and countless other factors have contributed to the fine details of Earth’s diverse flora and fauna. But according to England’s theory, the underlying principle driving the whole process is dissipation-driven adaptation of matter.
 

noguru

Well-known member
It would be nice to see a verified physics theory underpinning evolution and abiogenesis. These theories are missing a fundamental physical principle to undergird them, and the idea that thermodynamics virtually requires life would be very satisfying.

Thank you sir, for sticking to the subject matter of the OP.

I agree. Do you have any other thoughts on the latest article I posted?
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Hey, I really don't care what "It seems the science discovered through scientific means" seems like to you. :kookoo:

I see nothing in anything you posted that demonstrates I should have any confidence in your judgement.

This thread is for science, not to use science as a platform to broadcast your theological beliefs. Got it?

Funny, you said 'read and comment'. I guess you did not mean what you said.

Since the thread is only about 'science'. We can only talk about the fact that molecules come together. That is the only science or knowledge here.

And since we all know you really want to use the science to try and prove evolution, again I will comment on that. Its ridiculously untrue!
 

6days

New member
Funny, you said 'read and comment'. I guess you did not mean what you said.

Since the thread is only about 'science'. We can only talk about the fact that molecules come together. That is the only science or knowledge here.

And since we all know you really want to use the science to try and prove evolution, again I will comment on that. Its ridiculously untrue!
The experiment is evidence of design.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Funny, you said 'read and comment'. I guess you did not mean what you said.

:rotfl:

Yeah, its hilarious. Yes I did say "read and comment". How do your comments relate at all to the subject matter of the thread?

Since the thread is only about 'science'. We can only talk about the fact that molecules come together. That is the only science or knowledge here.

Science is about investigating the natural world. It is rather simple. Though confused sophists like you do tend to get all caught up on the complexities of the world.

And since we all know you really want to use the science to try and prove evolution, again I will comment on that. Its ridiculously untrue!

Empirical evidence supports evolution. I am not using this thread to do that. There is a vast amount of scientific literature that does that.

This thread is about how life seems to be the likely result of processes in the natural world. I know this might be confusing to you. But there is a nuanced difference here. I do not expect all people to get it. And those that don't get it should keep their mouths shut and listen. Unless they have a pertinent question about the subject.

"It is better to be silent and appear to be a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
 
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