The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Samie]

Rom 8:32

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Now what about this scripture? Who are the all Christ was delivered up for? Was it all mankind? No it is not! It's for all the Church, the Elect Vs33;It means all the Church, Paul was addressing the Church at Rome, the beloved of God, called to be Saints, of whom He had heard of their Faith Rom1:6-8

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

The church at Rome is composed of all who are in the Body of Christ. Paul was addressing all that be in Rome, "all", no one exempted nor left out;

He was addressing all that be in Rome, beloved of God, for God so loved the world and the Church is the Body of Christ.

And who are in the Body of Christ?

God saved Adam that same day he fell into sin, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And God saved Adam through Christ for no other name under heaven was given for the salvation of man. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ! Being in Christ, they are in His Body and hence comprise the Church the Bible speaks of.

 

[beloved57]

He bare the sins of many, not all without exception!2

Another scripture that says that Christ bare the sins of many, Isa 53:12

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Samie]

Jesus is ransom for all:

KJV 1 Timothy 2:

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

Now is that due time.

 

[beloved57]

His Death, which is a ransom, was for many,which means it was restricted Matt 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

See Mark 10:45 !

So then, how should we understand Paul here 1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Who are the all ? All of the many Matt 20:28; Mark 10:45. Remember, even though the word many is restricted, it also means a very large number or multitude.
W
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[beloved57]

The Spirit of Prophecy testifies to the restricted nature of the Blood of Christ as for who it was shed for, observe Zech 13:1

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

That is the Church, the Body of Christ!

 

[Samie]

The Spirit of Prophecy testifies to the restricted nature of the Blood of Christ as for who it was shed for, observe Zech 13:1

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

That is the Church, the Body of Christ!

In the Body of Christ, the "many" refers to "all" and vice versa.

KJV Romans 12:4-5

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.​

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:17

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.​

Notice "many members" refers to "all members" and vice versa, BUT it cannot refer to just "some members".

Hence, in redemption, Jesus died as ransom for "all sinners" and that refers to the "many sinners" BUT NOT just to "some sinners".

Scriptures say that the "all" Christ died for died when He died:

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15

14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.​

And Scriptures say that this "all" for whom Christ died is "every man".

KJV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Therefore, "every man" is the "all" for whom Christ died, the "many" for whom He gave His life as ransom, who, being His Body, died when He died.

 

[Nanja]

The Spirit of Prophecy testifies to the restricted nature of the Blood of Christ as for who it was shed for, observe Zech 13:1

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

That is the Church, the Body of Christ!

Amen! The Church chosen In Union with Christ, His Body, before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4 to have remission of sins are the only portion of mankind which are partakers of the Fountain of Christ's Blood for sin and uncleanness.

Eph. 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph. 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


So the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem Zech. 13:1 are a designation of the Body of Christ, His Church as a particular discriminate people whom He deals with favorably, as opposed to all the rest of mankind.

 

[jsanford108]

Hello. I am new user. I have read through all of this thread, because I find it is of a very intriguing topic.

To address the issue of the sins of all being put upon our Lord on the cross: this simply cannot be so. Let us examine it rationally and reasonably. If Christ suffered the punishment for all sins, emphasis on "all," then there would be no need for Hell. What is hell? It is a place of punishment. But if Christ bore the punishment "for" all, then the debt is paid.

Furthermore, to call any person out who states evidence against the claim of Christ bearing the burden of "all" sins, claiming that they preach a false gospel is also trivial then. Because, according to thy own argument, it doesn't matter. Because they are still going to Heaven since their faults and faulty gospel have already been punished in Christ.

And lastly, to address the topic of audience. Let us utilize the Scripture that says "all have sinned." What does it take to sin? Knowledge of right vs wrong, correct? So would you say a mentally handicapped person, devoid of reasoning, has the capability to sin gravely? The natural answer should be "no." Would this not be an exception to the verse saying "all have sinned"? And if it is an exception, then you have to aquesct to saying that there are millions of exceptions. With this admission, now we must see that the verse cannot mean a literal "all." And that is why te audience makes a rational, and reasonable impact. The letter is addressing a specific body. Not the full, entire body of believers that span the histories of the world.

 

[Bright Raven]

Hello. I am new user. I have read through all of this thread, because I find it is of a very intriguing topic.

To address the issue of the sins of all being put upon our Lord on the cross: this simply cannot be so. Let us examine it rationally and reasonably. If Christ suffered the punishment for all sins, emphasis on "all," then there would be no need for Hell. What is hell? It is a place of punishment. But if Christ bore the punishment "for" all, then the debt is paid.

Furthermore, to call any person out who states evidence against the claim of Christ bearing the burden of "all" sins, claiming that they preach a false gospel is also trivial then. Because, according to thy own argument, it doesn't matter. Because they are still going to Heaven since their faults and faulty gospel have already been punished in Christ.

And lastly, to address the topic of audience. Let us utilize the Scripture that says "all have sinned." What does it take to sin? Knowledge of right vs wrong, correct? So would you say a mentally handicapped person, devoid of reasoning, has the capability to sin gravely? The natural answer should be "no." Would this not be an exception to the verse saying "all have sinned"? And if it is an exception, then you have to aquesct to saying that there are millions of exceptions. With this admission, now we must see that the verse cannot mean a literal "all." And that is why te audience makes a rational, and reasonable impact. The letter is addressing a specific body. Not the full, entire body of believers that span the histories of the world.

If Christ did not die for all sin there is a contradiction of scripture;

Romans 3:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I think the problem comes in understanding that not all for whom He died will accept the sacrifice that He made. I think scripture is fairly clear on this point. Is not scripture clear in that Jesus died for all men?

Hebrews 2:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Is it not clear that He died for the sins of all men?

 

[Nanja]

Is it not clear that He died for the sins of all men?

NO!

Mat. 13:38-39
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Prov. 20:12
The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Bright Raven]

NO!

Mat. 13:38-39
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Prov. 20:12
The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You are just plain stupid!!!

 

[Samie]

Hello jsanford108;

You said:

To address the issue of the sins of all being put upon our Lord on the cross: this simply cannot be so. Let us examine it rationally and reasonably. If Christ suffered the punishment for all sins, emphasis on "all," then there would be no need for Hell. What is hell? It is a place of punishment. But if Christ bore the punishment "for" all, then the debt is paid.

You are both correct and wrong.

Correct, in that the debt is paid in full.

Wrong, in assuming that there would be no need for Hell which I assume you are referring to the lake of fire.

The death with which Christ died is unique - that death reconciled us to God (Rom 5:10) and forgave us all our sins (Col 2:13). He alone died that death.

Romans 5:10 NASB For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Colossians 2:13-14 NASB
13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

Death in the lake of fire is an entirely different story: it is annihilation of all evil - Satan with his cohorts and all those blotted out from the book of life - those who refuse to overcome evil with good. see Matt 25:41 -45; Rev 20:10 - 15.

 

[Bright Raven]

Hello jsanford108;

You said:You are both correct and wrong.

Correct, in that the debt is paid in full.

Wrong, in assuming that there would be no need for Hell which I assume you are referring to the lake of fire.

The death with which Christ died is unique - that death reconciled us to God (Rom 5:10) and forgave us all our sins (Col 2:13). He alone died that death.

Romans 5:10 NASB For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Colossians 2:13-14 NASB
13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

Death in the lake of fire is an entirely different story: it is annihilation of all evil - Satan with his cohorts and all those blotted out from the book of life - those who refuse to overcome evil with good. see Matt 25:41 -45; Rev 20:10 - 15.

If both are correct there is a contradiction to scripture. Can't be.

 

[Samie]

Calvinists try hard to negate that Jesus is ransom for all (1 Tim 2:5, 6), quoting Jesus words that He gave His life for many (Matt 20:28; Mark 10:45). Problem is they wanted the "all" or "many" to really mean "some".

It had been shown in this post that in the Body of Christ, "all" refers to "many" and vice versa, BUT cannot refer to "some". Calvinists have not addressed that post so far.

 

[jsanford108]

Samie and Raven,

You both make excellent points. And I know the verses of which you speak. However, let us use our reasoning skills. What is the purpose of hell (the lake of fire, damnation, etc)? It is to punish those who rejected Christ, correct? Rejection of Christ is a sin. The punishment for that sin is Hell. If Christ died as punishment for the sins of "all," then their punishment is done.

My point does not contradict Scripture. Does Christ not say he will clear the threshing floor? That means obviously that Hell exists and that some will be damned. But how can Christ say this if He is going to pay for their (the damned) sins? Would that not be Christ contradicting Himself?
Of course not. The issue comes with the interpretation that Christ bore the punishment of "all." Did He die for the sins of the world? Absolutely. Did He bear the punishment of sin? Absolutely. Did He wipe the debt owed by "all?" No. Because if He did, there would be no Hell, only Heaven. The fact is, is that a common misinterpretation of Scipture causes many to make the statement you have claimed. Now, if I have misrepresented you in any capacity, please correct me. And I assure you, I welcome criticism to my own points. Please don't hold back. Thank you all.

 

[Samie]

Hi jsanford108;

You have not misrepresented me in any capacity. But I don't agree with you because to agree with you is to disagree with Scriptures.

Try addressing this post where I have shown Scriptures that Jesus died for "all", which is the "many" that Jesus gave His life for.

I have already explained to you in an earlier post that Hell is annihilation of all evil, NOT payment for sin. It was the death of Jesus that paid the wages of sin.

 

[Nanja]

You are just plain stupid!!!

You are not of God!

 

[beloved57]

Romans 8:4 declares exactly who Christ came to live and die for. Let's read Rom 8:3-4

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Vs 3 speaks of God sending His Son to live and die, Vs 4 tells us for who exactly,

Vs 4

"us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Those who shall walk after the Spirit! That is who Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh for, in behalf of. So if one never begins a life of walking after the Spirit, Christ didn't come to live and die for them!

 

[Nanja]

Romans 8:4 declares exactly who Christ came to live and die for. Let's read Rom 8:3-4

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Vs 3 speaks of God sending His Son to live and die, Vs 4 tells us for who exactly,

Vs 4

"us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Those who shall walk after the Spirit! That is who Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh for, in behalf of. So if one never begins a life of walking after the Spirit, Christ didn't come to live and die for them!

Amen! And these who begin a life of walking after the Spirit, are only a remnant of mankind, the Election of Gace Rom. 11:5; 2 Tim. 1:9 which were Chosen by the Father In Union with Christ their Surety Heb. 7:22 to be Holy and Without Blame before Him in Love Eph. 1:4, and who was made under the law for them, which were predestined to be God's Adopted Sons.


Eph. 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will


So after God gives them New Birth in time, they shall begin to walk after the Spirit by Faith [a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22] just like Abraham did.


Gal. 3:7, 9, 14

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Gal. 4:4-7

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


Rom. 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


It's because they were the Children / Sons of God He Loved so much John 3:16, that Christ Lived and Died for them, His Church, on their behalf!

 

[Bright Raven]

You are not of God!

besides that you are unsaved!