ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[glorydaz]

How about some good anger management therapy?


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I'd say your drugs are doing the job quite nicely....don't waste your money.

 

[glorydaz]

It's that EARLY Modern (BRITTISH) English sentence construction of some 500 years ago.

Many read it in OUR...LATER (NORTH AMERICAN) Modern English.

All born of this Earth, or in Adam, were born sinners.

Just as all born From Above, or in Christ - are born righteous.

Born = made in the image of, and vice versa.

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Verse 3 is AFTER THE Fall in Genesis 3.

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

I don't see a thing there that applies to anything I've said.

What I do see is someone who believes something other than the Bible.

"born sinners"...."born righteous" Nope (that's today's modern Americana).

 

[Danoh]

How about some good anger management therapy?


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Actually, it is very obvious that often, when she is "tempted to go there" she holds herself in check quite well.

This is often revealed by the particular emoticons she makes use of in her replies.

YOU are just being your typically far too often clueless self as to the things that only appear to look the same.

Despite your obviously well read, but nevertheless, just as obvious, way over relied on, books based inteligence :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

I don't see a thing there that applies to anything I've said.

What I do see is someone who believes something other than the Bible.

"born sinners"...."born righteous" Nope (that's today's modern Americana).

No, you don't see a thing there

 

[Tambora]

Wrong. It doesn't "necessarily mean" any such thing. The very next verse says this: "Many were made sinners....."

Romans 5:19KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

You would think the obvious would jump right out at them that one verse says 'all' and the other verse says 'many'.

As John W. would say ..... details.

Think maybe the Holy Spirit put those contrasts there for a reason?
I do.

 

[glorydaz]

The articles ("the") are there (just as they are in other languages, like, say, Spanish, French, Italian, and so on...).

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/5-12.htm

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/2-1.htm

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/2-2.htm

Quit going by your often obvious "what makes sense to me" approach, already :chuckle:

I said that one time about the tree of knowledge.

I read the Bible and trust the Lord to reveal it's meaning. You can read it however you like. Slice it, dice it, and keep at it until it comes out exactly as you would have it.

 

[glorydaz]

You would think the obvious would jump right out at them that one verse says 'all' and the other verse says 'many'.

As John W. would say ..... details.

Think maybe the Holy Spirit put those contrasts there for a reason?
I do.

:thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

No, you don't see a thing there

I can see you think you were born from above. :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

Actually, it is very obvious that often, when she is "tempted to go there" she holds herself in check quite well.

This is often revealed by the particular emoticons she makes use of in her replies.

YOU are just being your typically far too often clueless self as to the things that only appear to look the same.

Despite your obviously well read, but nevertheless, just as obvious, way over relied on, books based inteligence :chuckle:

Just shows how ignorant you are.

I never try to hold myself in check at all. :banana:

Unlike you, I'm not trying to impress anyone. Now you two little bloomer boys need to stop disrupting Jerry's thread with your little jabs at me.

 

[intojoy]

Actually, it is very obvious that often, when she is "tempted to go there" she holds herself in check quite well.

This is often revealed by the particular emoticons she makes use of in her replies.

YOU are just being your typically far too often clueless self as to the things that only appear to look the same.

Despite your obviously well read, but nevertheless, just as obvious, way over relied on, books based inteligence :chuckle:

Too bad you are so threatened by the material man!


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[Lon]

You would think the obvious would jump right out at them that one verse says 'all' and the other verse says 'many'.

As John W. would say ..... details.

Think maybe the Holy Spirit put those contrasts there for a reason?
I do.

I'd bet John W, however, is against sinless doctrine. "Obvious" has had this doctrine on the 'naughty list' for centuries. One person, wanting to storm orthodox gates has a huge job before them. It better have some big-guns as it were. Pebbles against the fortress just aren't going to cut it. To date, Jerry is the only 'guy' I know of that espouses this. Mothers who love their 'angels' of course think like this. Something in a mother's eyes, make up 'wives tales.' It isn't all bad, but when it gets in the way of clear thinking.

Necessarily, we were all made sinners by Adam "from birth" because there is no other way to be made a sinner, but that way.

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
The 'many' as he just said as 'all.' Despite a mother's heart, a fancy dance doesn't eliminate context and cannot. The context is that there is only one way. Jesus claimed He was it, not just for 'the many' but all, else John 3:16 doesn't mean 'all' either by the same token.

Romans 3:23 All

Romans 5:8 "we" all of us, else some do not need a Savior, and the Lord Jesus Christ is no longer the Only Way, Truth, and Life whereby men can only through Him, come to the Father.

I truly believe John W would say the same, or nearly so. -Lon

 

[intojoy]

Without a doubt Romans 5:12-18 is the most misunderstood passages of the New Testament and a false understanding of this passage provides the very foundation for the myth that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all his descendants. Let us look first at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This princle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death. Therefore, we can understand that Adam's sin of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil resulted in all of his descendants having a knowledge of law. And when his descendants sinned against that law they died spiritually.

Here's a better example of a misunderstood verse and a far more important one.

“There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.”
??Galatians? ?3:28? ?ASV??
http://bible.com/12/gal.3.28.asv



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[Danoh]

You would think the obvious would jump right out at them that one verse says 'all' and the other verse says 'many'.

As John W. would say ..... details.

Think maybe the Holy Spirit put those contrasts there for a reason?
I do.

Thing is...sometimes "many" refers to some.

Other times "many" refers to all.

Depends both on where any word is found being used...

As well as in light of one or another doctrine.

The word "world" is like that, say, in John 1 and in John 3.

Both where a word is found being used, and doctrine, shed light on its' intended sense, the absence of either of which, results in a different understanding.

And that is just two principles. Never mind all the others that also impact the intended sense or meaning of a word and or phrase.

What quantity is the following referring to?

Matthew 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[Danoh]

Here's a better example of a misunderstood verse and a far more important one.

“There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.”
??Galatians? ?3:28? ?ASV??
http://bible.com/12/gal.3.28.asv



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Depends on order of importance - which thing differs, or depends on other factors.

Case in point, where the eternal destiny of the confused is concerned, a far more important issue would be the issue of their misunderstanding those passages dealing with the fact of the finished work of Christ.

One more principle revealed by this facf.

 

[God's Truth]

Galatians 2

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

Same gospel to two different types of people.

 

[God's Truth]

Actually, 8 goes with 3. But people go with 3, even 4, 5, 6 and 7 then always leave off 8, which tells you what born of the Spirit meant when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of it. None of us can do that. Yet I am assured of my eternal life.

8 3 4 5 6...and I am told that my beliefs are confusing?

 

[Danoh]

Just shows how ignorant you are.

I never try to hold myself in check at all. :banana:

Unlike you, I'm not trying to impress anyone. Now you two little bloomer boys need to stop disrupting Jerry's thread with your little jabs at me.

:rotfl:

So you never get upset?

So you are this perfectly holy person who never has to remind herself "not I, but Christ"?

I called it right; you are just too ignorant of this dynamic to see it.

:doh: :chuckle:

In other words, thanks for the chuckle - and no wonder you are stuck in your errors - you can't even see yourself

 

[Danoh]

I can see you think you were born from above. :chuckle:

Our regeneration is from above.

I never said born "again."

You would have caught this distinction if you actually were as astute as you only think you are.

But yours is much that you are parroting from some one's else's teaching - it is not really your own.

Yours is what you have ended up subscribing to out of your "what makes sense to me."

It is why we differ in understandings.

Of course, you will now take all this wrong and find yourself having to hold yourself in check some

 

[glorydaz]

I'd bet John W, however, is against sinless doctrine. "Obvious" has had this doctrine on the 'naughty list' for centuries. One person, wanting to storm orthodox gates has a huge job before them. It better have some big-guns as it were. Pebbles against the fortress just aren't going to cut it. To date, Jerry is the only 'guy' I know of that espouses this. Mothers who love their 'angels' of course think like this. Something in a mother's eyes, make up 'wives tales.' It isn't all bad, but when it gets in the way of clear thinking.

Necessarily, we were all made sinners by Adam "from birth" because there is no other way to be made a sinner, but that way.

Ha, that's not what God told Cain. "If thou doest NOT WELL, sin lieth at the door." He did not say, you were born a sinner (and so was your brother, Abel).

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

You jerk. Now you're claiming I don't believe children are damned because I'm a woman. Yet you're such a wus that you think God must make some special way for children to be with him. You're a hypocrite by claiming that, and you flat out lied when you said you'd stop making this a personal thing.

You have just lost all credibility to me.

Why don't you google some of the sites that discount original sin....they aren't mormon or any other oddball group. There are actually a lot of believers that do not see man as dead in sin at birth, who don't insist children must be baptised in order to be saved, who don't claim human beings have a sinful nature, and who don't see them as totally depraved. HYPOCRITE :down:


Oh, my goodness, Lon claims and repeats adnauseum. "There is none righteous...no not one". Try actually reading the Bible and see what you find....right there in the same Psalm you're using as a proof text. Fool.

Psalm 14KJV
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

​

 

[God's Truth]

Okay, I'll accept those verses, and will have to apologize.

I never thought I would ever hear you say that to me. Sounds good, apology accepted.

What about the one where you "die to Christ"?

Romans 6:4
We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newnes

2 Timothy 2:11
This is a trustworthy saying: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him;