Meaning of the death on the cross.
http://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-188-the-time-of-the-tomb?criteria=cross#U188_4_0
http://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-188-the-time-of-the-tomb?criteria=cross#U188_4_0
The Late Great Urantia Revelation
- Thread starter Caino
- Start date
- Status
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: No. You don't. You really don't.
Ransomed from death maybe, but man was never the property of a Satan God falsely so called. Still no sacrifice for sin. The landowner never sent his son as a ransom, he sent him with a message of forgiveness based on sincere faith and reconciliation.
"The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature." UB 1955
Two great mistakes of the early Christians:
1. The effort to connect the gospel teaching directly onto the Jewish theology, as illustrated by the Christian doctrines of the atonement —the teaching that Jesus was the sacrificed Son who would satisfy the Father's stern justice and appease the divine wrath. These teachings originated in a praiseworthy effort to make the gospel of the kingdom more acceptable to disbelieving Jews. Though these efforts failed as far as winning the Jews was concerned, they did not fail to confuse and alienate many honest souls in all subsequent generations.
2. The second great blunder of the Master's early followers, and one which all subsequent generations have persisted in perpetuating, was to organize the Christian teaching so completely about the person of Jesus. This overemphasis of the personality of Jesus in the theology of Christianity has worked to obscure his teachings, and all of this has made it increasingly difficult for Jews, Mohammedans, Hindus, and other Eastern religionists to accept the teachings of Jesus. We would not belittle the place of the person of Jesus in a religion which might bear his name, but we would not permit such consideration to eclipse his inspired life or to supplant his saving message: the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.
4. The Christian leaders were willing to make such compromises with Mithraism that the better half of its adherents were won over to the Antioch cult.
5. Likewise did the next and later generations of Christian leaders make such further compromises with paganism that even the Roman emperor Constantine was won to the new religion.
195:0.18 "Many of the great truths taught by Jesus were almost lost in these early compromises, but they yet slumber in this religion of paganized Christianity, which was in turn the Pauline version of the life and teachings of the Son of Man. And Christianity, even before it was paganized, was first thoroughly Hellenized. Christianity owes much, very much, to the Greeks. It was a Greek, from Egypt, who so bravely stood up at Nicaea and so fearlessly challenged this assembly that it dared not so obscure the concept of the nature of Jesus that the real truth of his bestowal might have been in danger of being lost to the world. This Greek's name was Athanasius, and but for the eloquence and the logic of this believer, the persuasions of Arius would have triumphed." UB 1955
Underneath the new atonement gospel/interpretation that was overlaid over the old religion of Jesus we can find the old ruins of the Gospel of the kingdom of heaven. Jesus used parables to communicate great truths to the sincere of heart and baffle his enemies, the quibbling, legalistic theology lawyers.
The ransom and atonement proponents have the landowner God sending his messengers to be sacrifices rather than on the merits of their spiritual teachings. In the case of Jesus it would be his original gospel.
Matthew 21:33-46
The Parable of the Tenants
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
Caino insert, no, they didn't respect the Son nor his original gospel as desired by the landowner
38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[a]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
Caino insert, It was not Gods will for the Son and his kingdom to be rejected. So, he abandoned the Jews and gave the light to others.
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
The ransom and atonement proponents have the landowner God sending his messengers to be sacrifices rather than on the merits of their spiritual teachings. In the case of Jesus it would be his original gospel.
Matthew 21:33-46
The Parable of the Tenants
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
Caino insert, no, they didn't respect the Son nor his original gospel as desired by the landowner
38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[a]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
Caino insert, It was not Gods will for the Son and his kingdom to be rejected. So, he abandoned the Jews and gave the light to others.
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
Lon
Well-known member
Galatians 1:6a I marvel that you are so easily duped (are so simple-minded)!!!
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you other than what we preached to you, let him be accursed!
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed!
Galatians 1:10 For now do I persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Galatians 1:11 And, brothers, I make known to you the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not according to man.
Galatians 1:12 For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it except by a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you other than what we preached to you, let him be accursed!
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed!
Galatians 1:10 For now do I persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Galatians 1:11 And, brothers, I make known to you the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not according to man.
Galatians 1:12 For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it except by a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Lon
Well-known member
Rom 10:1
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
Rom 10:2
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3
For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
Rom 10:2
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3
For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Lon
Well-known member
It is what Christians are interested in and what holds weight with them. That's why I'm getting thank you's, because I'm quoting what Christians believe and love.
It makes no sense to try to promote a heresy on a Christian board. It is a waste of this forum's space. You made your :dizzy: bed and can lie in the inane. You are dead to the Scriptures and Christ. Why you both choose to promote this rubbish here is beyond me.
You both must realize you are seen as uneducated and easily duped by more than obvious works of fiction and middle-school level fantasy.
This is my last post. Obviously you both are so duped by the ridiculous that there isn't much point. Jesus called for a dust shaking if you were scorned. You guys can't even get that right. I will shake my sandals and am glad I have a door I can close even if you won't get off the sidewalk.
BEGINNINGS OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH
194:4.1 When Jesus was so suddenly seized by his enemies and so quickly crucified between two thieves, his apostles and disciples were completely demoralized. The thought of the Master, arrested, bound, scourged, and crucified, was too much for even the apostles. They forgot his teachings and his warnings. He might, indeed, have been “a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,” but he could hardly be the Messiah they had hoped would restore the kingdom of Israel.
194:4.2 Then comes the resurrection, with its deliverance from despair and the return of their faith in the Master's divinity. Again and again they see him and talk with him, and he takes them out on Olivet, where he bids them farewell and tells them he is going back to the Father. He has told them to tarry in Jerusalem until they are endowed with power—until the Spirit of Truth shall come. And on the day of Pentecost this new teacher comes, and they go out at once to preach their gospel with new power. They are the bold and courageous followers of a living Lord, not a dead and defeated leader. The Master lives in the hearts of these evangelists; God is not a doctrine in their minds; he has become a living presence in their souls.
194:4.3 “Day by day they continued steadfastly and with one accord in the temple and breaking bread at home. They took their food with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. They were all filled with the spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness. And the multitudes of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them said that aught of the things which he possessed was his own, and they had all things in common.”
194:4.4 What has happened to these men whom Jesus had ordained to go forth preaching the gospel of the kingdom, the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man? They have a new gospel; they are on fire with a new experience; they are filled with a new spiritual energy. Their message has suddenly shifted to the proclamation of the risen Christ: “Jesus of Nazareth, a man God approved by mighty works and wonders; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you did crucify and slay. The things which God foreshadowed by the mouth of all the prophets, he thus fulfilled. This Jesus did God raise up. God has made him both Lord and Christ. Being by the right hand of God, exalted, and having received from the Father the promise of the spirit, he has poured forth this which you see and hear. Repent, that your sins may be blotted out; that the Father may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you, even Jesus, whom the heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things.”
194:4.5 The gospel of the kingdom, the message of Jesus, had been suddenly changed into the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. They now proclaimed the facts of his life, death, and resurrection and preached the hope of his speedy return to this world to finish the work he began. Thus the message of the early believers had to do with preaching about the facts of his first coming and with teaching the hope of his second coming, an event which they deemed to be very near at hand.
194:4.6 Christ was about to become the creed of the rapidly forming church. Jesus lives; he died for men; he gave the spirit; he is coming again. Jesus filled all their thoughts and determined all their new concept of God and everything else. They were too much enthused over the new doctrine that “God is the Father of the Lord Jesus” to be concerned with the old message that “God is the loving Father of all men,” even of every single individual. True, a marvelous manifestation of brotherly love and unexampled good will did spring up in these early communities of believers. But it was a fellowship of believers in Jesus, not a fellowship of brothers in the family kingdom of the Father in heaven. Their good will arose from the love born of the concept of Jesus' bestowal and not from the recognition of the brotherhood of mortal man. Nevertheless, they were filled with joy, and they lived such new and unique lives that all men were attracted to their teachings about Jesus. They made the great mistake of using the living and illustrative commentary on the gospel of the kingdom for that gospel, but even that represented the greatest religion mankind had ever known.
194:4.7 Unmistakably, a new fellowship was arising in the world. “The multitude who believed continued steadfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.” They called each other brother and sister; they greeted one another with a holy kiss; they ministered to the poor. It was a fellowship of living as well as of worship. They were not communal by decree but by the desire to share their goods with their fellow believers. They confidently expected that Jesus would return to complete the establishment of the Father's kingdom during their generation. This spontaneous sharing of earthly possessions was not a direct feature of Jesus' teaching; it came about because these men and women so sincerely and so confidently believed that he was to return any day to finish his work and to consummate the kingdom. But the final results of this well-meant experiment in thoughtless brotherly love were disastrous and sorrow-breeding. Thousands of earnest believers sold their property and disposed of all their capital goods and other productive assets. With the passing of time, the dwindling resources of Christian “equal-sharing” came to an end—but the world did not. Very soon the believers at Antioch were taking up a collection to keep their fellow believers at Jerusalem from starving.
194:4.8 In these days they celebrated the Lord's Supper after the manner of its establishment; that is, they assembled for a social meal of good fellowship and partook of the sacrament at the end of the meal.
194:4.9 At first they baptized in the name of Jesus; it was almost twenty years before they began to baptize in “the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Baptism was all that was required for admission into the fellowship of believers. They had no organization as yet; it was simply the Jesus brotherhood.
194:4.10 This Jesus sect was growing rapidly, and once more the Sadducees took notice of them. The Pharisees were little bothered about the situation, seeing that none of the teachings in any way interfered with the observance of the Jewish laws. But the Sadducees began to put the leaders of the Jesus sect in jail until they were prevailed upon to accept the counsel of one of the leading rabbis, Gamaliel, who advised them: “Refrain from these men and let them alone, for if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them, lest haply you be found even to be fighting against God.” They decided to follow Gamaliel's counsel, and there ensued a time of peace and quiet in Jerusalem, during which the new gospel about Jesus spread rapidly.
194:4.11 And so all went well in Jerusalem until the time of the coming of the Greeks in large numbers from Alexandria. Two of the pupils of Rodan arrived in Jerusalem and made many converts from among the Hellenists. Among their early converts were Stephen and Barnabas. These able Greeks did not so much have the Jewish viewpoint, and they did not so well conform to the Jewish mode of worship and other ceremonial practices. And it was the doings of these Greek believers that terminated the peaceful relations between the Jesus brotherhood and the Pharisees and Sadducees, Stephen and his Greek associate began to preach more as Jesus taught, and this brought them into immediate conflict with the Jewish rulers. In one of Stephen's public sermons, when he reached the objectionable part of the discourse, they dispensed with all formalities of trial and proceeded to stone him to death on the spot.
194:4.12 Stephen, the leader of the Greek colony of Jesus' believers in Jerusalem, thus became the first martyr to the new faith and the specific cause for the formal organization of the early Christian church. This new crisis was met by the recognition that believers could not longer go on as a sect within the Jewish faith. They all agreed that they must separate themselves from unbelievers; and within one month from the death of Stephen the church at Jerusalem had been organized under the leadership of Peter and James the brother of Jesus had been installed as its titular head.
194:4.13 And then broke out the new and relentless persecutions by the Jews, so that the active teachers of the new religion about Jesus, which subsequently at Antioch was called Christianity, went forth to the ends of the empire proclaiming Jesus. In carrying this message, before the time of Paul the leadership was in Greek hands; and these first missionaries, as also the later ones, followed the path of Alexander's march of former days, going by way of Gaza and Tyre to Antioch and then over Asia Minor to Macedonia, then on to Rome and to the uttermost parts of the empire." UB 1955
194:4.1 When Jesus was so suddenly seized by his enemies and so quickly crucified between two thieves, his apostles and disciples were completely demoralized. The thought of the Master, arrested, bound, scourged, and crucified, was too much for even the apostles. They forgot his teachings and his warnings. He might, indeed, have been “a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,” but he could hardly be the Messiah they had hoped would restore the kingdom of Israel.
194:4.2 Then comes the resurrection, with its deliverance from despair and the return of their faith in the Master's divinity. Again and again they see him and talk with him, and he takes them out on Olivet, where he bids them farewell and tells them he is going back to the Father. He has told them to tarry in Jerusalem until they are endowed with power—until the Spirit of Truth shall come. And on the day of Pentecost this new teacher comes, and they go out at once to preach their gospel with new power. They are the bold and courageous followers of a living Lord, not a dead and defeated leader. The Master lives in the hearts of these evangelists; God is not a doctrine in their minds; he has become a living presence in their souls.
194:4.3 “Day by day they continued steadfastly and with one accord in the temple and breaking bread at home. They took their food with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. They were all filled with the spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness. And the multitudes of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them said that aught of the things which he possessed was his own, and they had all things in common.”
194:4.4 What has happened to these men whom Jesus had ordained to go forth preaching the gospel of the kingdom, the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man? They have a new gospel; they are on fire with a new experience; they are filled with a new spiritual energy. Their message has suddenly shifted to the proclamation of the risen Christ: “Jesus of Nazareth, a man God approved by mighty works and wonders; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you did crucify and slay. The things which God foreshadowed by the mouth of all the prophets, he thus fulfilled. This Jesus did God raise up. God has made him both Lord and Christ. Being by the right hand of God, exalted, and having received from the Father the promise of the spirit, he has poured forth this which you see and hear. Repent, that your sins may be blotted out; that the Father may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you, even Jesus, whom the heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things.”
194:4.5 The gospel of the kingdom, the message of Jesus, had been suddenly changed into the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. They now proclaimed the facts of his life, death, and resurrection and preached the hope of his speedy return to this world to finish the work he began. Thus the message of the early believers had to do with preaching about the facts of his first coming and with teaching the hope of his second coming, an event which they deemed to be very near at hand.
194:4.6 Christ was about to become the creed of the rapidly forming church. Jesus lives; he died for men; he gave the spirit; he is coming again. Jesus filled all their thoughts and determined all their new concept of God and everything else. They were too much enthused over the new doctrine that “God is the Father of the Lord Jesus” to be concerned with the old message that “God is the loving Father of all men,” even of every single individual. True, a marvelous manifestation of brotherly love and unexampled good will did spring up in these early communities of believers. But it was a fellowship of believers in Jesus, not a fellowship of brothers in the family kingdom of the Father in heaven. Their good will arose from the love born of the concept of Jesus' bestowal and not from the recognition of the brotherhood of mortal man. Nevertheless, they were filled with joy, and they lived such new and unique lives that all men were attracted to their teachings about Jesus. They made the great mistake of using the living and illustrative commentary on the gospel of the kingdom for that gospel, but even that represented the greatest religion mankind had ever known.
194:4.7 Unmistakably, a new fellowship was arising in the world. “The multitude who believed continued steadfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.” They called each other brother and sister; they greeted one another with a holy kiss; they ministered to the poor. It was a fellowship of living as well as of worship. They were not communal by decree but by the desire to share their goods with their fellow believers. They confidently expected that Jesus would return to complete the establishment of the Father's kingdom during their generation. This spontaneous sharing of earthly possessions was not a direct feature of Jesus' teaching; it came about because these men and women so sincerely and so confidently believed that he was to return any day to finish his work and to consummate the kingdom. But the final results of this well-meant experiment in thoughtless brotherly love were disastrous and sorrow-breeding. Thousands of earnest believers sold their property and disposed of all their capital goods and other productive assets. With the passing of time, the dwindling resources of Christian “equal-sharing” came to an end—but the world did not. Very soon the believers at Antioch were taking up a collection to keep their fellow believers at Jerusalem from starving.
194:4.8 In these days they celebrated the Lord's Supper after the manner of its establishment; that is, they assembled for a social meal of good fellowship and partook of the sacrament at the end of the meal.
194:4.9 At first they baptized in the name of Jesus; it was almost twenty years before they began to baptize in “the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Baptism was all that was required for admission into the fellowship of believers. They had no organization as yet; it was simply the Jesus brotherhood.
194:4.10 This Jesus sect was growing rapidly, and once more the Sadducees took notice of them. The Pharisees were little bothered about the situation, seeing that none of the teachings in any way interfered with the observance of the Jewish laws. But the Sadducees began to put the leaders of the Jesus sect in jail until they were prevailed upon to accept the counsel of one of the leading rabbis, Gamaliel, who advised them: “Refrain from these men and let them alone, for if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them, lest haply you be found even to be fighting against God.” They decided to follow Gamaliel's counsel, and there ensued a time of peace and quiet in Jerusalem, during which the new gospel about Jesus spread rapidly.
194:4.11 And so all went well in Jerusalem until the time of the coming of the Greeks in large numbers from Alexandria. Two of the pupils of Rodan arrived in Jerusalem and made many converts from among the Hellenists. Among their early converts were Stephen and Barnabas. These able Greeks did not so much have the Jewish viewpoint, and they did not so well conform to the Jewish mode of worship and other ceremonial practices. And it was the doings of these Greek believers that terminated the peaceful relations between the Jesus brotherhood and the Pharisees and Sadducees, Stephen and his Greek associate began to preach more as Jesus taught, and this brought them into immediate conflict with the Jewish rulers. In one of Stephen's public sermons, when he reached the objectionable part of the discourse, they dispensed with all formalities of trial and proceeded to stone him to death on the spot.
194:4.12 Stephen, the leader of the Greek colony of Jesus' believers in Jerusalem, thus became the first martyr to the new faith and the specific cause for the formal organization of the early Christian church. This new crisis was met by the recognition that believers could not longer go on as a sect within the Jewish faith. They all agreed that they must separate themselves from unbelievers; and within one month from the death of Stephen the church at Jerusalem had been organized under the leadership of Peter and James the brother of Jesus had been installed as its titular head.
194:4.13 And then broke out the new and relentless persecutions by the Jews, so that the active teachers of the new religion about Jesus, which subsequently at Antioch was called Christianity, went forth to the ends of the empire proclaiming Jesus. In carrying this message, before the time of Paul the leadership was in Greek hands; and these first missionaries, as also the later ones, followed the path of Alexander's march of former days, going by way of Gaza and Tyre to Antioch and then over Asia Minor to Macedonia, then on to Rome and to the uttermost parts of the empire." UB 1955
Jesus was heresy to the Jews, and while you may be too proud Lon to acknowledge that Jesus had a gospel that changed after he left, others here may see my points and one day question the Romans remix of Jesus and find the glorious Jesus Christ in his life story that he sent again to the world.
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: Wishful thinking. NO believer is going to walk away from his/her Lord God. :nono:
Jesus teaches his gospel long before the cross and Paul's gospel.
Matthew 4:23
"Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people."
Christians just don't seem to stop and wonder "oh, what was Jesus teaching in the synagogue? Kill me as a human sacrifice for your sins"???? Was Jesus just pretending to try to reach the Jews with his original gospel?
Matthew 4:23
"Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people."
Christians just don't seem to stop and wonder "oh, what was Jesus teaching in the synagogue? Kill me as a human sacrifice for your sins"???? Was Jesus just pretending to try to reach the Jews with his original gospel?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Upholding integrity in the art of discussion.....
Upholding integrity in the art of discussion.....
You might want to do some better research about the beginning of how the papers came about, its an interesting study, but just assuming the above with partial info. and assumptions doesn't give the full story. There's always more to the story, and that includes how the Bible came to be written, 'adjusted' and canonized by man. All religious writings come thru the instrumentality and mediumship of human personalities, and is limited somewhat by its terms of language and translation-method.
Who wrote the Urantia Book?
A history of the Urantia Movement
You cannot compare the UB with the BoM...they are leagues apart, and different in many ways,....for starters the BoM is a 19th century production of mythology and folklore with a good share of the KJV Bible plagiarized or thrown in, compounded with protestant theology common to its era. The UB covers a huge and most comprehensive history and cosmology of the cosmos itself, the nature of God, Paradise Trinity, Isle of Paradise, the divine hierarchy of angels, history of Urantia (covering the 3 main branches of religion, science and philosophy) and a most complete record of Jesus life and ministry. The UB has over 2,000 pages, the BoM just over 500.
Apparently you're unaware that the both of these books affirm the 'incarnation' of Jesus as proclaim him as the Son of God, being one with God the Father, and truly 'divine' in their own right and relationship with the Universal Father (differences in Christology asides). Also both teach about spiritual 'rebirth' (being born again), in order to enter and see the kingdom of heaven. You have a lot of presuppositions towards which you build an artificial divide and create an 'enemy' to attack, when such on various particulars is but a phantom in your own mind.
The UB proclaims and presents Jesus as our Creator Son, the Creator and 'God' of this very world and universe who did 'bestow' himself and dwelt among us, who was then resurrected and ascended to his rightful rule as Sovereign Lord of this universe. - there is a greater hierarchy of the Universal Father and Paradise Trinity behind the offspring order of Creator Sons, of which Jesus is one, so that ultimately all things originate from and are presided over by the First Source and Center, the Universal Father of all beings and things. - this is a matter of hierarchy and divine procession revealed in the papers,....and yes....Jesus is certainly the way, truth and life, revealing the reality of God, his nature, qualities and attributes to us. In this sense and by that fact of he being Creator of this universe, and thru the revelation of his bestowal on Urantia...he alone is its Savior. (but this does not include a vicarious blood-atonement of any kind, which I've hashed out here previously many times before).
You're still waddling thru various pools of presumption and preconceptions from a prescribed view of salvation according to Paul. Almost half of the letters ascribed to Paul are pseudographical anyways, so you're also getting some 'made to order' writings by scribes in later centuries fitting their own theological concepts into the mix. The UB does not take anything thing of truth or real value from the Bible, but revises, expands and illuminates it, presenting religious truth in a more comprehensive, cosmically appropriated presentation. - it does correct some concepts or archaic beliefs too, of course. - all 'revelation' is progressive, and so enlarges man's vision of truth, qualititatively and contextually.
I'd like to enlighten readers so far to the thread (if not knowing),...the UB is just one of many religious books that I've read/studied over the years, and here I merely serve as an expositor or some of its concepts and how they RELATE to 'Religion', which is what this forum is about. Discussion folks. The UB is of a nature that it serves as a wonderful springboard since it addresses and expounds on vital subjects pertinent to man's condition, potential and destiny. Its 'religion' of truth, goodness and beauty, building on the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man, its principles of religious living certain hold in this day and age, because they are based on the fundamental truths and values of love, altruism and spiritual living.
Upholding integrity in the art of discussion.....
You might want to do some better research about the beginning of how the papers came about, its an interesting study, but just assuming the above with partial info. and assumptions doesn't give the full story. There's always more to the story, and that includes how the Bible came to be written, 'adjusted' and canonized by man. All religious writings come thru the instrumentality and mediumship of human personalities, and is limited somewhat by its terms of language and translation-method.
Who wrote the Urantia Book?
A history of the Urantia Movement
You cannot compare the UB with the BoM...they are leagues apart, and different in many ways,....for starters the BoM is a 19th century production of mythology and folklore with a good share of the KJV Bible plagiarized or thrown in, compounded with protestant theology common to its era. The UB covers a huge and most comprehensive history and cosmology of the cosmos itself, the nature of God, Paradise Trinity, Isle of Paradise, the divine hierarchy of angels, history of Urantia (covering the 3 main branches of religion, science and philosophy) and a most complete record of Jesus life and ministry. The UB has over 2,000 pages, the BoM just over 500.
Apparently you're unaware that the both of these books affirm the 'incarnation' of Jesus as proclaim him as the Son of God, being one with God the Father, and truly 'divine' in their own right and relationship with the Universal Father (differences in Christology asides). Also both teach about spiritual 'rebirth' (being born again), in order to enter and see the kingdom of heaven. You have a lot of presuppositions towards which you build an artificial divide and create an 'enemy' to attack, when such on various particulars is but a phantom in your own mind.The UB proclaims and presents Jesus as our Creator Son, the Creator and 'God' of this very world and universe who did 'bestow' himself and dwelt among us, who was then resurrected and ascended to his rightful rule as Sovereign Lord of this universe. - there is a greater hierarchy of the Universal Father and Paradise Trinity behind the offspring order of Creator Sons, of which Jesus is one, so that ultimately all things originate from and are presided over by the First Source and Center, the Universal Father of all beings and things. - this is a matter of hierarchy and divine procession revealed in the papers,....and yes....Jesus is certainly the way, truth and life, revealing the reality of God, his nature, qualities and attributes to us. In this sense and by that fact of he being Creator of this universe, and thru the revelation of his bestowal on Urantia...he alone is its Savior. (but this does not include a vicarious blood-atonement of any kind, which I've hashed out here previously many times before).
You're still waddling thru various pools of presumption and preconceptions from a prescribed view of salvation according to Paul. Almost half of the letters ascribed to Paul are pseudographical anyways, so you're also getting some 'made to order' writings by scribes in later centuries fitting their own theological concepts into the mix. The UB does not take anything thing of truth or real value from the Bible, but revises, expands and illuminates it, presenting religious truth in a more comprehensive, cosmically appropriated presentation. - it does correct some concepts or archaic beliefs too, of course. - all 'revelation' is progressive, and so enlarges man's vision of truth, qualititatively and contextually.
I'd like to enlighten readers so far to the thread (if not knowing),...the UB is just one of many religious books that I've read/studied over the years, and here I merely serve as an expositor or some of its concepts and how they RELATE to 'Religion', which is what this forum is about. Discussion folks. The UB is of a nature that it serves as a wonderful springboard since it addresses and expounds on vital subjects pertinent to man's condition, potential and destiny. Its 'religion' of truth, goodness and beauty, building on the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man, its principles of religious living certain hold in this day and age, because they are based on the fundamental truths and values of love, altruism and spiritual living.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
More corrections:
Wrong. I don't know where you're getting this idea or where Caino ever taught this, since the UB does NOT teach this at all. It in fact teaches against both pure 'pantheism' and 'materialism'. Again, it appears you're presupposing and presuming things about the UB that it does not teach, which shows you haven't read enough of it to know otherwise. - now if you're referring to my own personal more 'eclectic'/'pluralistic' theological leanings, that's fine, but this represents my own 'world-view' which is openly much more liberal than any given 'terms' in the UB, although the UB certainly expands one's concept of God and cosmology of the Universe.
Not good to throw 'eastern religion', 'mormons' and the 'UB' all into the same pot. - there are notable differences, and the latter two denominations do hold that Deity alone ( expressly personalized) is the designer of creation.
Not quite, presuming things again. The UB is fundamentally and faithfully THEISTIC in its theology. Furthermore, it emphasizes 'God' as a divine Personality. In fact 'personality' itself (its nature, composition, eternal attributes and potential) is one of its unique revelations. See: here. Its cosmology may be within a more pan-en-theistic over-lay, but only Deity alone is creator, controller, designer of all creation.
That's fine, but I see a pan-en-theistic cosmology more reasonable, understanding the metaphysics of both Spirit and matter, and how all things are within the unified field of Consciousness. See: Panentheism. - it is different in some respects than pure Pantheism. You'd do well to note the difference.
This is relative to your personal experience, and you conditioning your 'belief-system' within a given religious context. There is always room for 'progressive revelation' and further 'learning'.
Don't know what you mean hear beyond a peculiar interpretation based on a given assumption which makes the observation somewhat subjective. Outsider/insider duality? :think: Caino claimed to have a 'christian' background, and so do I,...until you know one's full religious experience or biography you really cant judge, since you're prone to presumptions that way. You might note many have left Christianity altogether, embracing another religious culture or practice or become agnostic/atheistic....so the modern pop-evangelical brand of Christianity may not appeal to some, and only 1/3 of the world claims to be 'christian'. The UB presents a gospel of Jesus that is more 'Jesusonian', as it uses that term, to distinguish it from pop-forms of Christianity.
Wrong. I don't know where you're getting this idea or where Caino ever taught this, since the UB does NOT teach this at all. It in fact teaches against both pure 'pantheism' and 'materialism'. Again, it appears you're presupposing and presuming things about the UB that it does not teach, which shows you haven't read enough of it to know otherwise. - now if you're referring to my own personal more 'eclectic'/'pluralistic' theological leanings, that's fine, but this represents my own 'world-view' which is openly much more liberal than any given 'terms' in the UB, although the UB certainly expands one's concept of God and cosmology of the Universe.
Not good to throw 'eastern religion', 'mormons' and the 'UB' all into the same pot. - there are notable differences, and the latter two denominations do hold that Deity alone ( expressly personalized) is the designer of creation.
Not quite, presuming things again. The UB is fundamentally and faithfully THEISTIC in its theology. Furthermore, it emphasizes 'God' as a divine Personality. In fact 'personality' itself (its nature, composition, eternal attributes and potential) is one of its unique revelations. See: here. Its cosmology may be within a more pan-en-theistic over-lay, but only Deity alone is creator, controller, designer of all creation.
That's fine, but I see a pan-en-theistic cosmology more reasonable, understanding the metaphysics of both Spirit and matter, and how all things are within the unified field of Consciousness. See: Panentheism. - it is different in some respects than pure Pantheism. You'd do well to note the difference.
This is relative to your personal experience, and you conditioning your 'belief-system' within a given religious context. There is always room for 'progressive revelation' and further 'learning'.
Don't know what you mean hear beyond a peculiar interpretation based on a given assumption which makes the observation somewhat subjective. Outsider/insider duality? :think: Caino claimed to have a 'christian' background, and so do I,...until you know one's full religious experience or biography you really cant judge, since you're prone to presumptions that way. You might note many have left Christianity altogether, embracing another religious culture or practice or become agnostic/atheistic....so the modern pop-evangelical brand of Christianity may not appeal to some, and only 1/3 of the world claims to be 'christian'. The UB presents a gospel of Jesus that is more 'Jesusonian', as it uses that term, to distinguish it from pop-forms of Christianity.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Again, in the interest of real 'discussion'........
Again, in the interest of real 'discussion'........
Ah, aren't you special
You may want to read the OP, which I wrote myself with some modifications by Caino for this particular thread. Note there is no ulterior motive in the presentation to proselyte anyone to any given view, but to share the information and significance that the papers may have for humanity, religiously speaking. Something of great potential importance is worth considering. Its just 'information', complete with its own 'terms'.
Your opinion is noted and somewhat over-bearing in this respect, but Knight has allowed this thread to exist,- furthermore it provides an excellent opportunity to discussion the principles and precepts of 'Religion'. Did you remember this is the 'Religion' forum? There is an ECT ('exclusively Christian Theology') section, if discussing topics in that area would be more comfortable for you
Your Phariseean demeanor and religious piety is noted.
Lets go over this again,...this is a discussion thread on the UB following? As a contributor and facilitator of some of the discussion here, I have many other interests and religious traditions and schools I continue to explore and learn about (remember 'God' is Infinite, right?),....the UB is one of the more seminal or notable volumes of religious value to come forth in the last few centuries. Its an interesting and unique book of papers, whether you see it as a true revelation, religious fiction or some combination of both. Note the Bible has plenty of figurative language, allegory and mythology woven into its tapestry as well,....its what is being 'communicated' that is important, no matter the dialectic being used.
I've addressed this earlier, and asked if you could find in the Foreword or first 5 papers, what is 'fiction' or 'middle school level fantasy'. There are quite advanced concepts and content in the papers, that transcend more elementary portions, but the papers are a presentation from various authors or personalities, so a difference in style or nomenclature is likely within a given work. You've quoted a few passags here and there that you find 'middle school level', thats all. You fail to acknowledge or even know about the more essential basics of theology, cosmology and philosophy that it espouses. But that's because you've already marginalized it, while others more zealous have 'demonized' it.
Uh huh. You just couldn't resist could you
Caino and I may share some common knowledge and understanding of the concepts and principles espoused in the papers, but our over-all theology and cosmology in other areas do differ in nuance, since I'm a bit more 'eclectic' and 'liberal' in my approach on certain subjects and contexts. I don't think either of us are 'duped'(any more than anyone else might be)....since life goes on, and so does the process of 'learning'.
For an even greater nuance to tickle your noggin, as the resident 'Eclectic Theosophist',...its a liberal term of a student or lover of divine wisdom, or wisdom of 'God' or the 'gods'. - its a fun label to play with, in the most broad sense. I have been diving into Theosophy as taught by Madame Blavatsky in her seminal works, and if I was a true die-hard Theosophist (proper) as a sole devotee of her school of thought in the most fundamental sense, I would be even more critical of Christianity and even the UB itself on some measures, since Blavatsky did not espouse a 'personal' God but would use the term 'Deity' to include that universal, Impersonal infinite eternal omnipresent Principle which is the source and origin of all spirit and matter (the whole creation and phenomenal existence)...which religions later 'personalized' into their own characterization of 'God' or a pantheon of 'gods'. But that's another subject.
Well, shake the dust of your sandals and don't let the door hit your hindquarters on the way out :crackup: - that is if you're really done with carrying on any discussion here.
Again, in the interest of real 'discussion'........
Ah, aren't you special
You may want to read the OP, which I wrote myself with some modifications by Caino for this particular thread. Note there is no ulterior motive in the presentation to proselyte anyone to any given view, but to share the information and significance that the papers may have for humanity, religiously speaking. Something of great potential importance is worth considering. Its just 'information', complete with its own 'terms'.
Your opinion is noted and somewhat over-bearing in this respect, but Knight has allowed this thread to exist,- furthermore it provides an excellent opportunity to discussion the principles and precepts of 'Religion'. Did you remember this is the 'Religion' forum? There is an ECT ('exclusively Christian Theology') section, if discussing topics in that area would be more comfortable for you
Your Phariseean demeanor and religious piety is noted.
Lets go over this again,...this is a discussion thread on the UB
following? As a contributor and facilitator of some of the discussion here, I have many other interests and religious traditions and schools I continue to explore and learn about (remember 'God' is Infinite, right?),....the UB is one of the more seminal or notable volumes of religious value to come forth in the last few centuries. Its an interesting and unique book of papers, whether you see it as a true revelation, religious fiction or some combination of both. Note the Bible has plenty of figurative language, allegory and mythology woven into its tapestry as well,....its what is being 'communicated' that is important, no matter the dialectic being used.I've addressed this earlier, and asked if you could find in the Foreword or first 5 papers, what is 'fiction' or 'middle school level fantasy'. There are quite advanced concepts and content in the papers, that transcend more elementary portions, but the papers are a presentation from various authors or personalities, so a difference in style or nomenclature is likely within a given work. You've quoted a few passags here and there that you find 'middle school level', thats all. You fail to acknowledge or even know about the more essential basics of theology, cosmology and philosophy that it espouses. But that's because you've already marginalized it, while others more zealous have 'demonized' it.
Uh huh. You just couldn't resist could you
Caino and I may share some common knowledge and understanding of the concepts and principles espoused in the papers, but our over-all theology and cosmology in other areas do differ in nuance, since I'm a bit more 'eclectic' and 'liberal' in my approach on certain subjects and contexts. I don't think either of us are 'duped'(any more than anyone else might be)....since life goes on, and so does the process of 'learning'.
For an even greater nuance to tickle your noggin, as the resident 'Eclectic Theosophist',...its a liberal term of a student or lover of divine wisdom, or wisdom of 'God' or the 'gods'. - its a fun label to play with, in the most broad sense. I have been diving into Theosophy as taught by Madame Blavatsky in her seminal works, and if I was a true die-hard Theosophist (proper) as a sole devotee of her school of thought in the most fundamental sense, I would be even more critical of Christianity and even the UB itself on some measures, since Blavatsky did not espouse a 'personal' God but would use the term 'Deity' to include that universal, Impersonal infinite eternal omnipresent Principle which is the source and origin of all spirit and matter (the whole creation and phenomenal existence)...which religions later 'personalized' into their own characterization of 'God' or a pantheon of 'gods'. But that's another subject.
Well, shake the dust of your sandals and don't let the door hit your hindquarters on the way out :crackup: - that is if you're really done with carrying on any discussion here.
Christians may not take the time to think through how the apostles, common place Jewish laborers, came to fall in Love with and trust the strange teachings of the Son of Man. We are born into a ready made religion where Jesus is an enormous figure. For the followers of Jesus he was a local carpenter from Nazareth, normal flesh and blood like themselves. He and his family were known in the tiny town of Nazareth. There was nothing that set them apart from anyone else, an average Jewish family. Jesus' dad died in a construction accident when Jesus was 14. Mary was pregnant with their 8th child leaving their first born son Jesus to be the head of the household. As a result even their economic status suffered, they went from what we might call middle class to poor. Jesus was like a father to his brothers and sisters and supported the family up until well into his 20's leaving James, the next to the oldest, to run things as Jesus went off into the world. Even then Jesus continued to send money home to support his family. The apostle John took care of Mary until her death.
So Jesus wasn't the wild eyed mystic portrayed in Hollywood versions, he was a man among men, not the feminine picture one may see in the hallway at church. He was in fact, both human and divine.
So Jesus wasn't the wild eyed mystic portrayed in Hollywood versions, he was a man among men, not the feminine picture one may see in the hallway at church. He was in fact, both human and divine.
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Lon
Well-known member
Rather you couldn't. I'm merely redressing 'your' rants.
In my angry youth, I'd have taken the bait. I've still the where-with-all but am somewhat tempered. Don't push it.
- Status