the history of Islam

[bybee]

Yes, the point of the thread is a history of atrocity. But my point is that if we dwell on past offenses committed by one entity we must then consider past offenses by another entity. This merely enforces he holding of animosities which generally precludes problem resolution today.
It is a different world now than when Christianity first ran the show. And it is a different world now than when Muhammad instructed his followers to convert or kill.

 

[Nick M]

Obama arms the Brotherhood

Obama went out of his way to undo all of what Bush did to stop them.

 

[chrysostom]

Did you intend to leave out the Ottoman Empire's involvement in WW I?
This list could be much, much longer. Muslim attacks on Europe were fairly relentless over the centuries until the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

I did not intend to leave anything out
and
I am sure I have
so
it is your job to make me aware of what I should have included

 

[Nick M]

Yes, the point of the thread is a history of atrocity. But my point is that if we dwell on past offenses committed by one entity we must then consider past offenses by another entity.

Why? Are Christians trying execute non-converts like islam is to this day? You can't be serious....

 

[bybee]

Why? Are Christians trying execute non-converts like islam is to this day? You can't be serious....

That is how the apologists for Islam react. They immediately bring up Christian atrocities committed in the past and therefore argue that Islam is no worse than Christianity.
I disagree. That is the point I would make.
Radical Muslims are slaughtering innocent men women and children by the thousands all over the world. They commit the most heinous crimes against little girls and women.
I am deadly serious that unless moderate Muslims step up to the plate and make a concerted effort to stem the tide of these radicals I am fearful of all Muslims.

 

[exminister]

He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Is that just bad advice?
American Christianity with few exceptions appear to ignore that. Was it only specific to Gethsame and doesn't apply today? In the context of this thread it doesn't seem smart, right?

 

[Selaphiel]

Sure. And the transmission of the Greek classics that Christians spent so much efforts trying to erase from history.

Say what? The "Christians" have done despicable things throughout history, but it is a myth that Christians destroyed the great library if that is what you are hinting at. Most of that library was decimated by a fire due to the Romans, longbefore Christians were in any position to do any such thing.
In fact, if it weren't for the monastics, there would be no Greek classics at all. They even copied texts they disagreed with severely, simply for their value. The same is the case in the eastern empire. The Greek philosophical and medical texts were preserved by the church. The Byzantines were the greatest practitioners of medicine in their time, because they greatly valued the value of medical knowledge to heal people, which obviously was a focus of the church. That the Arabs preserved those writings is a myth as well, what they did was to try and gather it all under one language, namely Arabic (which in itself is a noble effort, but not the same thing).

That Christians in antiquity sought to destroy knowledge is a myth perpetrated by fanatical enlightenment enthusiasts, creating their own salvation history by portraying themselves as liberating Europe from a barbaric past. Cities like Alexandria sure could be volatile places, but that had little to with Christianity. During times of peace, Christians and pagans studied under each other as masters and pupils.

 

[bybee]

Say what? The "Christians" have done despicable things throughout history, but it is a myth that Christians destroyed the great library if that is what you are hinting at. Most of that library was decimated by a fire due to the Romans, longbefore Christians were in any position to do any such thing.
In fact, if it weren't for the monastics, there would be no Greek classics at all. They even copied texts they disagreed with severely, simply for their value. The same is the case in the eastern empire. The Greek philosophical and medical texts were preserved by the church. The Byzantines were the greatest practitioners of medicine in their time, because they greatly valued the value of medical knowledge to heal people, which obviously was a focus of the church. That the Arabs preserved those writings is a myth as well, what they did was to try and gather it all under one language, namely Arabic (which in itself is a noble effort, but not the same thing).

That Christians in antiquity sought to destroy knowledge is a myth perpetrated by fanatical enlightenment enthusiasts, creating their own salvation history by portraying themselves as liberating Europe from a barbaric past. Cities like Alexandria sure could be volatile places, but that had little to with Christianity. During times of peace, Christians and pagans studied under each other as masters and pupils.

Thanks for the enlightenment. Some persons seem to delight in any opportunity to cast a stone at Christianity whilst giving a "Pass" to the misdeeds of others....

 

[Nick M]

That is how the apologists for Islam react. They immediately bring up Christian atrocities committed in the past and therefore argue that Islam is no worse than Christianity.
I disagree. That is the point I would make.

:up:

There is no such thing as a moderate muslim. Only a muslim who is not a jihadist but supports their cause.

 

[aikido7]

Getting mixed up in what happened after Mohamed's death will not tell us anything about pure Islam, any more than a focus on the Roman Empire after 300 AD will tell us about Christianity--Jesus style.

The actual historical figure of Mohammed is there in the Qur'an but there is a lot of theological overlay done by his later followers after his death.

And he was not a terrorist nor a pedophile. In fact, his wife was several years older than he was--which as I remember was scandalous in its time.

 

[JFish123]

Getting mixed up in what happened after Mohamed's death will not tell us anything about pure Islam, any more than a focus on the Roman Empire after 300 AD will tell us about Christianity--Jesus style.



The actual historical figure of Mohammed is there in the Qur'an but there is a lot of theological overlay done by his later followers after his death.



And he was not a terrorist nor a pedophile. In fact, his wife was several years older than he was--which as I remember was scandalous in its time.

His first wife was older then he. Even muslim scholars admit he had a pre teen bride. And multiple wives. And raided caravans. And had people murdered.

 

[JFish123]

Is ISIS Islamic Debate - a muslim and Christian scholar debate
https://youtu.be/GKH-sInknQM

 

[rexlunae]

Say what? The "Christians" have done despicable things throughout history, but it is a myth that Christians destroyed the great library if that is what you are hinting at. Most of that library was decimated by a fire due to the Romans, longbefore Christians were in any position to do any such thing.

I'm going from what I learned in my history of western civ class more than a decade ago. But it seems like Wikipedia vaguely suggest that this is one possibility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria). It's the first I've heard any differently, honestly. Do you have a source?

Paganism was made illegal by an edict of the Emperor Theodosius I in AD 391. The temples of Alexandria were closed by Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria in AD 391.[32] The historian Socrates of Constantinople describes that all pagan temples in Alexandria were destroyed, including the Serapeum.[34] Since the Serapeum housed a part of the Great Library, some scholars believe that the remains of the Library of Alexandria were destroyed at this time.[32][35] However, it is not known how many, if any, books were contained in it at the time of destruction, and contemporary scholars do not mention the library directly.[36][37]

In any case, that wasn't the main point. The main point is that Muslims preserved some of the ancient classics, which deserves to be figured into any history of Islam.

That Christians in antiquity sought to destroy knowledge is a myth perpetrated by fanatical enlightenment enthusiasts ...

...and college professors...

..., creating their own salvation history by portraying themselves as liberating Europe from a barbaric past. Cities like Alexandria sure could be volatile places, but that had little to with Christianity. During times of peace, Christians and pagans studied under each other as masters and pupils.

It was a barbaric past, which included religious wars between Christians and persecutions of religious minorities as well as feudal rule. Part of that is simply down to the passage of time and the inevitable shifting of standards, but some of it is really, fairly objectively worse than today if you care about free open societies or human rights as currently understood.

 

[chrysostom]

history is the key to understanding

 

[chair]

history is the key to understanding

Saladin! Impressive guy.

 

[bybee]

Saladin! Impressive guy.

Richard the Lion Hearted! Very impressive guy.

 

[bybee]

I'm going from what I learned in my history of western civ class more than a decade ago. But it seems like Wikipedia vaguely suggest that this is one possibility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria). It's the first I've heard any differently, honestly. Do you have a source?

Paganism was made illegal by an edict of the Emperor Theodosius I in AD 391. The temples of Alexandria were closed by Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria in AD 391.[32] The historian Socrates of Constantinople describes that all pagan temples in Alexandria were destroyed, including the Serapeum.[34] Since the Serapeum housed a part of the Great Library, some scholars believe that the remains of the Library of Alexandria were destroyed at this time.[32][35] However, it is not known how many, if any, books were contained in it at the time of destruction, and contemporary scholars do not mention the library directly.[36][37]

In any case, that wasn't the main point. The main point is that Muslims preserved some of the ancient classics, which deserves to be figured into any history of Islam.



...and college professors...



It was a barbaric past, which included religious wars between Christians and persecutions of religious minorities as well as feudal rule. Part of that is simply down to the passage of time and the inevitable shifting of standards, but some of it is really, fairly objectively worse than today if you care about free open societies or human rights as currently understood.

It is what Islam is doing today that counts with me.

 

[False Prophet]

The Counter-Reformation (also the Catholic Revival[1] or Catholic Reformation) was the period of Catholic resurgence beginning with the Council of Trent (1545–1563) and ending at the close of the Thirty Years' War (1648), and was initiated in response to the Protestant Reformation.

 

[Quetzal]

It is what Islam is doing today that counts with me.

I feel the need to remind everyone that broad, all encompassing statements are not helpful. This is due to the fact that there are several different sects and divisions within Islam. Not quite to the extent of Christianity but it is worth comparing. Remember, not every event sensationalized by CNN/Fox News is an event that is accepted by the majority of Muslims. That is all.

:carryon:

 

[chrysostom]

the history of Islam

Muslim Conquests

Byzantine–Ottoman Wars

636 Battle of Yarmouk

637 Siege of Jerusalem

641 Siege of Alexandria

674 First Arab Siege of Constantinople

711 Umayyad conquest of Hispania

717 Second Arab Siege of Constantinople

732 Battle of Tours

1099 Siege of Jerusalem

1187 Battle of Hattin

1291 Siege of Acre

1422 Siege of Constantinople

1453 Fall of Constantinople

1492 Battle of Granada

1529 Siege of Vienna

1565 Siege of Malta

1571 Battle of Lepanto

1683 Battle of Vienna

2001 September 11 attacks

this was a lot of work
and
the first one was deleted