The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[carri]

Freak--

You just can't deal with the fact that God's Word includes more than a few select verses that support your false doctrine! I added nothing but other scriptures to help explain exactly what that faith we are saved by is comprised of--not only belief, but action, also.

I noticed you didn't explain Heb 5:9 or James 2:14-19 in your post. As a matter of fact, I can't remember one time that either c.moore or yourself responded to something that refutes your "faith only" doctrine, unless it was to throw more supporting scriptures at it and ignore the one presented to you in the first place.

Carri

 

[Freak]

Scripture interprets Scripture. The verses you mentioned need to be understood in the context of the New Covenant as a whole. Scriptural evidence abounds regarding the fact that justification is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Just read Romans 4 & 5 that clearly point that out. Or even Galatians 4 or John 6.


Good works is an evidence of ones faith. But good works does not save however. That would utterly absurd. For only Jesus was perfect. The Scriptures are quite clear we are totally sinful incapable of good works. It is Christ that brings forth fruit!

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Can I ask you a simple question? It's really easy to answer, let's see if you can. Is faith without works dead? Can you answer it?

Also, can you point out where anybody said that works saves?

 

[drbrumley]

Kevin,

Is faith without works dead?

The real question is are you still saved if your works are dead?

Freak nailed it when he said

Good works is an evidence of ones faith.

Everyone of us have backsliden at somepoint in our walk as Christians. Everyone! But because of the love of our Father, He hasn't given up on us. We come back time and again, realizing we are a complete and utter failure to try to live our own lives. Remember this, God will take us out of this world if we do not live according to His calling. He is in the busines of being our Father, which means that just as I have a father who will correct me when I'm wrong, God does the same. It is my beleive that faith equals happiness or joy. If I'm not walking with God, I am a miserable and unhappy person. Am I still saved? Yes. I would be missing out on the joy of my salvation. And everything I do would be burned once I get to heaven. But, I'm still in heaven and would realize God had more planned for me but because of my choices, I missed out. Hope that makes sense.

 

[c.moore]

Carri
Look at this!
Heb:5:9: And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jas:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas:2:15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas:2:16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas:2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas:2:18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas:2:19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas:2:20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas:2:21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas:2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas:2:23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Quote c.moore
I have responded to your scriptures , and I have showen you that you take those scripture that you think will support your ritual out of context, or you don`t except the revelation of that scripture you try to give me , and brother Freak.

I know you, and brother Kevin are together , so I can understand you both will agree with each other, specially when Kevin says he teaches baptism is salvation.

I don`t understand how somebody can teach baptism, and the people he teaches don`t even know if they are saved, and not even Kevin know if he is saved after all the baptism and doings.
Sorry but can anyone call this good new, and the gospel.
Ro:10:15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Ok, let me deal with these scriptures you say I don`t answer.
In this verse in hebrew it says to those that obey Him is really meaning to those who Love Him, because of course we will obey , and do because you love.
You try to use this scripture as to think it say , those who obey and work for salvation,will have eternal life only , like being in the army, taking your orders, and command.
You make this verse like the natural today`s army.
The army of the Lord is with Love and al about love,and that is the only reason we obey is because we want to with all our hearts, and because of the first love to Jesus.
We look not to the commandment like you believe, but we look to Jesus , and be in His presence, and Spirit,that guide us to do like Jesus will do.
I have learned alot from Kevin, and yourself, and why you believe the way you do, and that to me is another gospel which I , and many wil not accept.
when i was in the army I hated taken orders, or commandment, which I had to do .I did them unhappy, and with Joy, and peace.
The same is how you explain your belief to us like the military, and we can`t except that.
I get order from my wife sometime, and I do it with all my heart, and with peace , and joy, and happyness, not trying to prove I am her husband, I do it in the love towards my wife, and guess what I really don`t need no one to instruct me on how I should do for my wife.
When I tell sinners about the Love they can get from Jesus , they accept this as good new, not looking like you explain,
uncle sam want you !


I think this even explains your next verses you ask me about.
Stop looking at this obedience scripture, like you joined the marines .
Join Jesus only, and with love only.

1Jo:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jo:5:1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo:5:2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo:5:3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

if you can get what these verseas is saying it will change your doctrine of salvation, and you will gain cofidence in Jesus, that you know you are saved, because you ask, and made a choice to love Jesus.


1Jo:5:14: And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

That is also including our salvation

Let God bless you and kevin

 

[JustAChristian]

You Just Don't Get It!

You Just Don't Get It!

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
But in every nation whoever fears Him and WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35).

What is it that Peter fears and what is his understanding of grace?

Could it be that his righteousness is of his works and he understands if he does not endure then comes judgment and death? Clearly we have a new message in the gospel Paul preached!

Paul's gospel reflects no such fear because it is....NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, BUT according to his MERCY he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Tim. 1:7 (KJV)
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 2 Tim. 1:8 (KJV)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE , which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim. 1:9 (KJV)
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath ABOLISHED DEATH, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim. 1:10 (KJV)

How did Paul receive the gospel that is NOT by works of righteousness?

For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal. 1:12 (KJV)

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph. 3:3 (KJV)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph. 3:4 (KJV)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph. 3:5 (KJV)

Was Paul commissioned to water baptize?

For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)

For by ONE SPIRIT are we ALL BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

The one baptism (NOT TWO) is SPIRIT baptism.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

Craig,

Time and time again I have asked for one verse that says the Holy Spirit cleanses of sin. You have the challenge, but you never responed. You have the same old rhetoric. The one baptism is not HolySpirit baptism. If you practice water baptism, which most all "Christian" sects do, and belive that the Holy Spirit baptized one today, then you have two. Ephesians 4 says there is one, not two. Every apostle baptized their believers of the gospel. Every preacher that preaches did the same (Acts 8 ). They said nothing about Holy Spirit baptism, but the people's sins were forgiven; they were cleansed (Acts 22:16). Baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21). Paul's revelation was nothing different than what Peter and the other apostles preached. It was the churche's mission the deliver a single message universally;

"To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Eph 3:10).

Why don't you get away from this "Two Gospel" rhetoric and preach the truth or quit preaching, or at the least, tell us something that is in the bible.

JustAChristian

 

[carri]

Freak and C.Moore--

Freak--you still haven't dealt with Heb 5:9 or James 2:14-19. Just explain them in the context of the new covenant. I think this is why you ignore them--if you fit them in with the other scriptures, then what you believe isn't the whole truth.

C.Moore--
You said:

In this verse in hebrew it says to those that obey Him is really meaning to those who Love Him, because of course we will obey , and do because you love.

These words of yours, "is really meaning to" tells us that you aren't taking the scripture for what it says. You have interpreted this verse to mean what you want it to mean. Its a pretty straight forward verse, written in very simple form with no big words or anything. Of course, if you interpret it for what it says, that doesn't support your belief, does it?

And you didn't address James2, but I guess it doesn't matter, because you would probably read something into it that isn't there, also.

You quoted:

1Jo:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jo:5:1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo:5:2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo:5:3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Yes, and when we don't keep God's commandments what does it show? That we don't love Him. And when we teach others that they needent obey Him? When a person claims to be a Christian, yet refuses to obey God, he is nothing more than a hypocrite and a liar. And we know that liars are included in that list of people who will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

As for us having confidence in Jesus, we already do have absolute confidence in Him and our salvation. If we were to turn back to sin, though, and away from Him, then our salvation would be in jeopardy (2Pet2:20).

I thought this was kind of funny:

I get order from my wife sometime, and I do it with all my heart, and with peace , and joy, and happyness, not trying to prove I am her husband, I do it in the love towards my wife, and guess what I really don`t need no one to instruct me on how I should do for my wife.

If the Christians already know how to "do for God" because they loved Him, then why did Paul and the other apostles have to write soooo.. many letters to the churches (people who were already Christians) giving them instructions?Huh?

Carri

 

[Freak]

Kevin,

I believe in the Holy Scriptures that declare quite clearly we are saved apart from works. Just read Ephesians 2 and Galatians 4 to see my point. I also believe as evidence of one's faith there will be good works. See James 2.

Carri-

I have answered your question. Now answer mine.

 

[carri]

Freak--

Do you have a problem with short term memory? Let me refresh it for you. Here was my answer to Eph2:8-9:

Eph2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

Yes, we have been saved through his grace--without it there would be NO chance for anyone to be saved. We can in no way, shape or form earn our salvation. Nothing we can do can get us into heaven because we are all sinners and therefore separated from God. Without the perfect sacrifice of Christ there would be no way to unite us with God, regardless of the number of good works we do.

And, yes, we are saved through faith--that is, a live faith, which is accompanied by actions (James2:17) and not a dead faith. If there are no deeds, then the faith is dead and dead faith doesn't save (this is also the faith of the demons that James talks about). Works, which include obeying Christ (baptism is one), are a part of real, live, saving faith. Anyone who says they aren't necessary is preaching dead faith--which doesn't save. And the works of faith aren't done in order to boast, but in obediance.

Now let's see...where did you answer my questions about Heb5:9 and James2:14-19...was this it:

Scripture interprets Scripture. The verses you mentioned need to be understood in the context of the New Covenant as a whole. Scriptural evidence abounds regarding the fact that justification is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Just read Romans 4 & 5 that clearly point that out. Or even Galatians 4 or John 6.


Good works is an evidence of ones faith. But good works does not save however. That would utterly absurd. For only Jesus was perfect. The Scriptures are quite clear we are totally sinful incapable of good works. It is Christ that brings forth fruit!

If this was it, I'm sorry I didn't recognize it as such, since it didn't really explain anything. I'm asking you to specifically explain what each passage means, and I can't see that you have done that.

Carri

ps I don't know how many times I have to say this, but works don't save us. Lack of works condemns us.

 

[JustAChristian]

That's Right

That's Right

Originally posted by Freak
Kevin,

I believe in the Holy Scriptures that declare quite clearly we are saved apart from works. Just read Ephesians 2 and Galatians 4 to see my point. I also believe as evidence of one's faith there will be good works. See James 2.

Carri-

I have answered your question. Now answer mine.

I believe Kevin would say, That's right! No amount of meritous works will save. Baptism is not a meritous work of man. It is coupled with repentence, which by the way, you never mention as a meritous work. This is done by man, isn't it? It is commanded by Christ (Luke 13:3). Don't you have anything bad to say about it? You Faith Only people are bent on trying to destroy the commandments of Christ. We are saved by faith, but not by faith only. We are saved by grace, but not by grace only. We are saved by Baptism, but not by baptism only. Many thing are said to accredit our salvation, but not individually. They all must work together. When we discount any one, we discount them all. Believe all the counsel of God which includes immersion for the remission of sins.

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

JustaChristian,

Your ideas sound good and probably many would embrace them. But it clearly militates against the clear teaching of God's Word that proclaims justification is by faith. A glance at Romans 5:1 shows that-"Having been justified by faith". Note: no mention of baptism, any kind of good works, etc. It is simply by faith. That is how one is saved.

Now after salvation one shows the evidence of his saving faith with his good works which includes baptism. But these however does not save. They merely show the evidence of faith.

Hope this helps...

 

[c.moore]

If the Christians already know how to "do for God" because they loved Him, then why did Paul and the other apostles have to write soooo.. many letters to the churches (people who were already Christians) giving them instructions?Huh?


Quote c.moore

Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro:10:5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Ro:10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Carri you said:I think this is why you ignore them--if you fit them in with the other scriptures, then what you believe isn't the whole truth.

Quote c.moore
this is what I seen you ,and kevin do the whole time on this subjet baptism.
You add water baptism in scrpture like in Act 2, that is not meaning water baptism from John the baptist.
Most of the scripture you try to use is ,taken out of context by you all putting water in front of all scriptures with baptism.
But when we explain the deep revelation of your verses, it is then alright for you to tell us we are taken thing out of context.

If I ask you to tell me which scripture are talking about spiritual baptism , and water baptism I get the idea maybe only 2 scipture might be spiritual baptism.
See what false dotrine can do?

let God bless you

 

[drbrumley]

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


If this passage proves the possibility of losing salvation, it also proves the impossibility of ever regaining it. In order to understand just what it does teach it is neccessary to go back to Isreal's provocation of God at Kadesh-barnea, which was pointed to in Hebrews 3 and 4. This was the great crises in the history of Isreal as they were ready to enter the Promised Land and was the beginning of that greater crises which confronted the Hebrew nation when this was written, namely that of entering into the promised Kingdom through their Messiah, Jesus Christ. In Numbers 14, Isreal had been enlightened, they had tasted the fruits of canaan, they had experienced miraculous powers, they had tasted the good word of God, but they turned back in unbeleif because of the giants in the land. In the same manner Isreal at pentecost had been enlightened by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, they had tasted the heavenly gift, and they had experienced the miraculous powers of the coming kingdom age, and that generation also turned back in unbelief. After the provocation in Numbers 14, God closed the door to their going into Canaan and told them they would all die in the wilderness. Nevertheless, in spite of the fact God had told them it was now impossible for them to be renewed, they presumed to go up, but were beatin by their enemies. Just so in the days when Hebrews was written, God closed the door to the Messianic Kingdom when Isreal hardened their hearts, and God sent blindness upon them and told them it was now impossible to enter in.

It should be evident that no one today could duplicate the experience of Hebrews 6 any more than he could that of Numbers 14. National Isreal committed the unpardonable sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit's testimony to the risen Messiah after Pentecost, and according to Romans 11 they are now blinded and cast away until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. No one today is tasting the powers of the Kingdom age and therefore it follows that since none of the conditions laid down in Hebrews 6:4-6 are being met today, neither are the consequences.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Here again it is necessary to understand that these Hebrews were confronted with the great crises mentioned above. They had received the knowledge of the truth at pentecost, but that does not mean they were all saved. Insecurity teachers usually intrepret this passage as though it had said: "If we sin willfully after that we have been saved, there remaineth no more forgiveness of sins." The willful sin of Hebrews was the crucifying afresh the Son of God, by rejecting His once-and-for-all sacrifice. If they rejected that sacrifice there was no other sacrifice they could turn to, because God had now disowned the sacrifices of the law and was ready to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, making it impossible for them to offer animal sacrifices. Having no sacrifice for his sins, the Isrealite had nothing to anticipate but fiery indignation.

This verse is often quoted to teach that a Christian who commits sin falls from grace and is lost. But the verse says that those who try to justify themselves by keeping the law have fallen from grace.

Hope this helps

God Bless


That was previous post under my other alias.

 

[drbrumley]

And water babtism is LAW.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by drbrumley
And water babtism is LAW.

You can say that again:up:

be bless

 

[JustAChristian]

Not By Faith Only!

Not By Faith Only!

Originally posted by Freak
JustaChristian,

Your ideas sound good and probably many would embrace them. But it clearly militates against the clear teaching of God's Word that proclaims justification is by faith. A glance at Romans 5:1 shows that-"Having been justified by faith". Note: no mention of baptism, any kind of good works, etc. It is simply by faith. That is how one is saved.

Now after salvation one shows the evidence of his saving faith with his good works which includes baptism. But these however does not save. They merely show the evidence of faith.

Hope this helps...

Freak,

What do you know about the characteristics of Faith? We find in the Bible that faith has many characteristics. The apostle Peter described it as “precious faith.” It is precious because of it"s value. We value something that means something special. Faith is unique in that it stands alone as one unit (Eph 4:5). There are not an abundance of faith, but one faith (Jude 3).

We find Jude also calling it “your most holy faith” (Jude 20). That which is holy is different. It is not like that which is of the world while is vile, but that which is like God. God is not like the idols of man. He is different or holy.

The Bible describes faith as that which works. It is “your work of faith” (1 Thess. 1:3). Paul said on an occasion, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith which worketh by love” (Gal 5:6).

Faith is connected to repentance in the Bible. Jesus said, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel” (Mk 1:15). It is a “believing in” that is called upon us to do after our repentance. For this purpose, faith is never of itself alone.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and faith comes by hearing the gospel (Rom 10:17). The good news of Jesus Christ motivates us to believe based on reasonable information. So faith comes through or by the Word of God (Jn 20:30-31).

In the letter to the Romans, we see Paul telling the church "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:1). Paul is telling them and us that salvation is not by the works of the Law of Moses but by faith in Jesus Christ. Having faith in Christ means that we listen and obey Him unconditionally (John 14:15; 15:9). He has promised to reward the obedient disciple (Hebrews 5:9). When faith obeys, there is tranquillity to the sou.
l
Faith is so unique that it must be active to be Godly. The Bible says, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (Jm. 2:26). Faith calls for the doing of the works of God. Jesus said, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent ( Jn 6:29).

Faith brings salvation to the people. When one does the work of God in believing the gospel and obeying Christ in baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38 )then there is salvation for the soul (Acts 16:31; Eph 2:8; Heb. 5:8-9).

When one has salvation, the faith they have contributes to peace, joy and hope (Rom 5:1; 15:13; 1 Peter1:8). There is multiple blessing where there is faith ( Eph. 1:3; 2 Peter 1:3).

It would be easy to boast as a Christian, but because of faith in Christ we are restrained. The Bible says in describing righteousness, “ Where is thy boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay, but by the law of faith (Rom.3:27). So then faith is said to prevent conceit (pride).

Faith is our spiritual shield and defends us against the fiery darts of Satan. The Bible says, “Above all, taking the shield of faith that you may be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked” (Eph 6:16) Finally, faith is the victory that overcomes the world. (1 Jn. 5:4). Do you have the saving faith of the Bible. Does it react in obedience, or is your faith lacking spirituallity? You be the judge.

JustAChristian

 

[carri]

C.Moore--

Do you think it is possible for one person to spiritually baptize another person? Look at this passage and pay careful attention to the part that I have bolded.

Matt 28:19-20 Jesus tells the disciples "Therefore go and make disciplesof all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

There are only two types of baptism that we have been discussing--water and spiritual. If Christ tells them to go baptize other people, then doesn't that make it obvious that he is talking about water baptism? And he tells them to teach the people to obey everything He has commanded, which would include the commandment He had just made to go baptizing others.

In Acts2:38 Peter tells the people to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Why would he tell them to be baptized if they don't have any choice in the matter? What makes you think that you aren't baptized by the Holy Spirit when you obey Christ and submit to water baptism? Christ told Nicodemus that no one could enter the kingdom of heaven unless he was born of water and the Spirit. Doesn't it seem a little too coincidental that the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ when he was baptized in the water? What makes you think it is any different for us?

I don't understand your point in reciting those scriptures with regards to why the churches needed teaching by the apostles if they already loved the Lord. Please explain what you mean by them.

Carri

 

[Kevin]

You can't do it, can you?

You can't do it, can you?

Freak,

I believe in the Holy Scriptures that declare quite clearly we are saved apart from works. Just read Ephesians 2 and Galatians 4 to see my point. I also believe as evidence of one's faith there will be good works. See James 2.

How does this answer my question? Is faith without works dead? Yes or no... it's not that hard. Is it?
Are you incable of answering such a simple question? The fact that you dance around my question shows that your arguement is flawed. If you had the truth, answering this EASY question wouldn't be so difficult.

 

[HopeofGlory]

John was instructed by God to water baptize and it can not be denied that this baptism was of men under the law. Christ died to remove the law for all who receive His witness. I ask this question... was John's baptism performed by man to man and was it witnessed by men? The only answer is "Yes" it was and it can not be argued to the contrary.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:9 (KJV)
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:10 (KJV)

The witness of men for remission of sins under the law was water baptism (Mark 1:4) (Acts 2:38). The witness of God for remission of sins is the shed blood of Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:25).

Jesus gives us further clarification to this truth.

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

The baptism performed by men in water was earthly and pertained to an earthly kingdom. The baptism of heaven replaced the earthly baptism and it is not performed by men but is an operation of God (Col 2:12) by the Spirit.

Jesus said to Nicodemus....If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

Jesus Christ is that Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) that forgives sin and when we believe His witness and not man’s we are baptized by the words of the new testament (Matt 26:28).

The words of Christ cannot be denied for he says these words so that you might be saved!

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5:31 (KJV)

Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. John 5:33 (KJV)
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:9 (KJV)

And this is the record, that God hath “given” to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:11 (KJV)

GIVEN without works of righteousness!!!!

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6 (KJV)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 (KJV)

Jesus was water baptized as a witness to an earthly kingdom but He was also Spiritually baptized in death as God's witness to a Spiritual kingdom.

The words of Jesus confirm this very truth! The Spiritual witness of God has superceded the earthly witness of man for remission of sins and God's witness can only be received by "faith" and not by any act (work) of man such as water baptism. The baptism of John was authorized by God but that does nothing to disprove that it was the witness of men .

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

This witness of men has clearly been replaced with a greater witness of God. Paul was the first to reveal the greater witness of God that Christ died for the remission of sin.
If these simple words do not mean this then what do they mean? Jesus said that even His witness would not be true and yet some say John's witness of water baptism is true but if... we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater:

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:10 (KJV)

Many false teachers of today have chosen to make God a liar and we are not to receive their earthly witness.

Jesus spoke nothing but truth and many did not understand or receive His words. The same holds true today and because this truth has been revealed through Paul they pervert it in order to keep their doctrine of works. John the Baptist verifies the words of Jesus.....“He must increase, but I must” decrease John 3:30 (KJV). John the Baptist reveals the contrast of the two baptisms (I indeed baptize you with water "but" he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost Matt. 3:11) He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 (KJV)

The above clearly shows the "earthly" message to an "earthly" kingdom will be replaced by a "Spiritual" message with a "Spiritual" kingdom. Those that deny this believe in a works doctrine of which they cannot left go of because it condemns them to hell.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, "all things" are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)

And "all things" are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation....2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)

Any theology fails when it denies that "all things" have become new and that they are totally of God (Spiritual) and not of the earth. Anyone that denies this truth has made God a liar!

Water baptism was "for remission of sin" but when you take that "gospel of the circumcision" and teach it in this dispensation of grace then you are a false teacher with a false witness.

Being baptized onto Christ is becoming a member of His body and being in His body through faith we died with Him and have become a new creature created in Christ Jesus.

To be "Spiritually buried" in death with Christ is the moment of salvation. Those who indicate it happens when you are water baptized could not be further from the truth for salvation has no connection to an earthly element. They cannot discern the difference in the natural and the Spiritual have not had the eyes of their understanding enlighten by the Spirit of Christ. This difference brings down their house of cards and reveals the dispensational truth in the word of God.

God's word is evident that the Spiritual message of Christ was not received by the apostles and was not delivered at Pentecost.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27 (KJV)
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 (KJV)

Jesus said...Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV) This was not to be taken naturally but was to be received Spiritually by faith. Jesus explains it with these words...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV) The apostles did not receive theses words of Jesus but said....This is an hard saying; who can hear it? John 6:60 (KJV) These words were not to be understood until Paul revealed this truth after Pentecost through revelations received from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12). Paul was the first to teach that the blood of Christ was shed for our sins.


In Christ
Craig

 

[Kevin]

drbrumley,

The real question is are you still saved if your works are dead?

Considering that we will be judged by our works (Rev. 20:12), what do you think?