The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

c.moore

New member
Originally posted by rene

You show a lack of knowledge of scripture. Your comments still going against the words of Jesus, suggesting that Paul somehow changed the teaching Jesus told to be followed.

You evidently don't even understand the setting where Paul made his comments about baptism and the division going on at the time....

No wonder your having problems grasping points shown to you.

It is not my person interpretation, or understanding , and teachings , millions of other christian would agree with me, and many of the Christian tv channel and broadcast agree including specially the TBN and all the bishops, pastors, bible scholar teachers , and Evangelist would agree you missed the mark and you have added an another old gospel to the new, and good news.

I know all these great preachers like billy Graham and Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Bishop T.D Jake are just lieing, and all the millions of people who get saved fro real are just going to hell because of your concept of belief that water saves.

Again what a shame.:kookoo:

You have completely lost the value of the cross, and the finish work of Christ is none sence to you.

You must belong to a very small church, or maybe no church at all because I can`t see people geting saved under your water down gospel.:think:


God Bless
 

rene

New member
You can continue to suggest whatever it is that you like. But following the teachings of Jesus is what a believer is to do.

Mat 7:21 "Not every one saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father, the [One] in [the] heavens.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and did many miraculous works in Your name, did we not?
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you*; be departing from Me, the ones practicing lawlessness!'
Mat 7:24 "Therefore, every [one] who hears these words of Mine and does them, I will compare him to a wise man who built his house on the solid rock;
Mat 7:25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat against that house, and it did not fall, for it had been founded on the solid rock.

What did Jesus say about baptism:

Mat 28:19 "When you* have gone, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to be observing all [things], as many as I commanded you*. And listen! I am with you* all the days, until the conclusion of the age! So be it!" [Gr. amen, and throughout NT].

Your dispute isn't with me - it is with the scriptures that you are attempting to twist to your personal desire vs. the desire of God that Jesus lived a life upon this earth to fulfill His will. Christians, those in Christ, follow Jesus and His teachings.

I remember what you called and said about the teaching of baptism that Jesus instructed to be part of sharing the gospel, part of a believers walk with God. Do you? More importantly - - do you think God knows?
 

JustAChristian

New member
Originally posted by c.moore

It is not my person interpretation, or understanding , and teachings , millions of other christian would agree with me, and many of the Christian tv channel and broadcast agree including specially the TBN and all the bishops, pastors, bible scholar teachers , and Evangelist would agree you missed the mark and you have added an another old gospel to the new, and good news.

I know all these great preachers like billy Graham and Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Bishop T.D Jake are just lieing, and all the millions of people who get saved fro real are just going to hell because of your concept of belief that water saves.

Again what a shame.:kookoo:

You have completely lost the value of the cross, and the finish work of Christ is none sence to you.

You must belong to a very small church, or maybe no church at all because I can`t see people geting saved under your water down gospel.:think:


God Bless


c. moore,
Bringing up names of denominational preachers to support your position does not solidify your position at all. The bible tells us of false teachers then and the fact of false teachers in the future. Teaching the word of God is most important. Doing it right is essential. There was one who was teaching it wrong and had to be corrected (Read Acts 18:24-26). You shouldn’t take offense to being corrected. Be thankful that someone is truly interested in you and wants only the best (eternal life) for you. Don’t close your mind to the possibility of being wrong. You need to just investigate with an open mind.

You have tried to convince your readers that Paul was not sent to baptize. You feel that Paul was thankful be baptized very few which shows baptism to then be non-essential. Let me ask you, Why did Paul make this statement? It was because he did not want praise from people. You should begin a reading at 1 Cor. 1:10 through verse 15 and you will see why Paul had not baptized.

You have repeatedly asked someone to show you in the bible where it says baptism saves you. It is clearly shown in 1 Peter 3:21; Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38; 22:16. The bible tells us there are several things which save man (Faith, Grace, Christ, Obedience, the Gospel, Being Faithful, Hope, etc.) but do we have a right to choose which one we want or do not want? All of these work together to save. Faith alone does not save.

Many people believe that as long as one accepts Christ as his or her personal savior, he or she will be saved. I ask the question, “What do they mean when one accepts Christ?� In Matthew 7:21-23, we see some people who accepted Jesus, but He never knew them. The Bible linens conversion to a marriage. In every marriage, both parties must consent to the marriage, right? Colossians 2:6 says we must accept Christ and Romans 15:7 says Christ must accept us. What should be our response so that Christ will accept us? It will only come when one obeys His will (Hebrews 5:8-9) A part of His will is that we be immersed for the forgiveness of sins. But you, as many believe, baptism has nothing to do with salvation and washing away our sins. I ask you and them, Where does the Bible make this statement? Where does it say that baptism has nothing to do with salvation and washing away sins? The only place that I know where the Bible uses this terminology, “wash away sins� is applied to baptism (Acts 22:16). I have shown you earlier that baptism is said to save (1 Peter 3:21). Are you going to listen to God’s word or the words of false teachers?

I could cite countless reasons that you and others should be baptized. However, I don’t want to burden you further except to say that I hope you will investigate further and accept God’s word and not all the false teachers who do not accept the scriptures.

In Christ,
JustAChristian
 

JustAChristian

New member
Some Say That Baptism Is A Work.....

Some Say That Baptism Is A Work.....

Baptism Is A Work...

“True it is a work– a work of whom – man or God? Do you believe in Jesus? Well, did you know that the bible says that faith is a work? (Read John 6:28,29). Who is the author of faith? “Jesus asked the people, ‘The baptism of John, whence was it from, heaven or men?’ “ (Matthew 21:25) I would like to ask a similar question: The baptism taught by Christ – was it from heaven or men? Heaven? O.K., if from heaven we had better find out what it is for since God is its author. Is true Biblical faith a faith that means God says what He means when He speaks through His word? If you say yes, then you affirm that God cannot lie. Then what He has said through Christ about baptism is true. Will Jesus ever say something and mean just the opposite of what He says? Surely not! Well, in Mark 16:16, did Jesus mean what He said? If we refuse to be baptized to be saved, whose words are we rejecting? God’s or man’s?

The bible tells us that John went about preaching the kingdom is at hand and baptizing and...

“And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.� (Luke 7:29-30 AV)

These people came to John to hear him and to be baptized. They were only doing what he said was required of God. They never questioned him, but accepted him as a prophet from God. Why? No doubt it was because of the realistic message that he preached. He did not contradict the scriptures as all the false teachers do. They knew it was true. They obey the command to be baptized. That is, all that would hear the scriptures were baptized. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected his message that John preached against themselves by not being baptized. They just would not accept it. It was not according to their will. It did not matter that it was a message authored by God. It was not their will. Are you willing to investigate baptism further? I hope you will.

In Christ,
JustAChristian
 

c.moore

New member
but the bible say`s :Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 

JustAChristian

New member
Originally posted by c.moore

but the bible say`s :Ro:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

c.moore,

Yes, it is by grace. But, the work is by God. Baptism came from God. We do it because God commanded it. God will not extend his Grace in salvation unless we do his commandments. Doesn't it say "...by grace through faith..." It is not our working and deserving, but our working and God extending Grace. Look at the 11th chapter of Hebrews and read when God extended favor towards each of those named. It was after they performed their faithful act. We can never be saved if we are working to earn salvation, but if we faithfully perform what is commanded then it is not earning that we do.

In Christ,
JustAChristian
 

c.moore

New member
So we are to sought of buy our way into salvation??

We are to get God to see our obedience first before being excepted.

We are first to qualify, instead of just being picked or chosen from the few is this correct??

We are not to get elected but to get selected by our own works and brownie points is this your gospel??
 

rene

New member
No, you didn't buy anything. By following the one that did "buy", did pay the price, you come into relationship with Jesus.

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men

We obey the words of Jesus because we have made the choice - not forced.

To "qualify" for this relationship, all one has to do is to follow His teachings. No pick and choose as you keep suggesting - but follow.

To be "elected" one has to do what is need:

2Pe 1:5 But also [for] this very [reason], having applied all diligence, provide with your* faith moral excellence, and with moral excellence knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 and with knowledge self-control, and with self-control patient endurance, and with patient endurance godliness,
2Pe 1:7 and with godliness brotherly kindness [fig., affection for fellow-believers], and with brotherly kindness love.
2Pe 1:8 For [if] these [qualities] belong to you* and [are] abounding [or, increasing], it makes [you*] neither useless nor unfruitful in regard to the full [or, true] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 For [the one] with whom these [qualities] are not present is blind, being shortsighted, having become forgetful of the cleansing [or, purgation] of his former sins.
2Pe 1:10 For this reason, rather, brothers [and sisters], be eager [or, diligent] to be making certain His calling and choice [or, election] of you*, for these [things] doing, you* shall by no means stumble at any time.

A bit more going on and just sitting back and doing no "work" - which you want to act as if it is a dirty word. For the bible does indeed say:

Jam 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, O empty [fig., foolish] person, that such faith without such works is dead?

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also one's faith without such works is dead.

Grace still there because God indeed made a way when He didn't have to make a way. But the grace is not a cheap grace. Jesus paid a price He didn't have to pay, the ultimate of prices. By doing so, He made a way for us to follow. We don't get to pick parts that we do/n't want to follow. Either you are all in or - -

Again, you show a real need to get into the study of the bible vs listening to some of the people that you evidently are listening to.

Rene
 

JustAChristian

New member
Duddddddd!

Duddddddd!

Originally posted by c.moore

So we are to sought of buy our way into salvation??

We are to get God to see our obedience first before being excepted.

We are first to qualify, instead of just being picked or chosen from the few is this correct??

We are not to get elected but to get selected by our own works and brownie points is this your gospel??


Do you really think that I am trying to get you to BUY your salvation? Surly you don't believe I would be teaching that!! Salvation is a free gift from God but it is obtained in obedience to faith in Jesus Christ. This is simply doing what Jesus commanded. Does somene need to repent of sins before they are saved? Is this a work of merit or an obedience to faith in Christ?

Christ set the standards of acceptance. Salvation is a gift that is extended to those that obey Him (Read Hebrews 5:8-9).

All who are called to obey the gospel (Roman 1:16) are elected to salvation on obedience to the gospel. Election is not something that comes before obedience. You need to study this more, c. moore.

JustAChristian :angel:
 

JustAChristian

New member
God's Work In Salvation.

God's Work In Salvation.

There are works that play a part in man’s salvation. The scriptures are too clear to deny it. Paul said to Titus, “This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Titus 3:8). Why should we be careful to maintain good works if they have nothing to do with our salvation. It is because...“These things are good and profitable unto men.� And how? Because they lead to our salvation. It is never counterproductive to obey God!

Either there are conditions to salvation or there are none. If there are any conditions of salvation at all, then we must observe all that God has set forth as conditions. Why do we recognize faith to be a condition of salvation without recognizing repentance. If we recognize repentance, why not confession? And if any of these, then why not baptism? Indeed, baptism is stated to be a condition of entry into Christ and His kingdom several times more often than these other conditions.

The same reasoning applies to Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Condemned are the works originated by man. The works of God which we do by faith are not of ourselves, they are of God. We cannot boast about keeping God's commandments and still keep them (this is an oxymoron). Again, when we read on we find that the very purpose of this admonition is to prompt us to walk in the works of God (Eph. 2:10): "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Man can not be saved by faith without accepting baptism for the remission of sins. Any statement concerning salvation is conditioned on commands which originated in the mind of God. Scriptural baptism is a statement concerning salvation and is a commanded operation of God which originated in the mind of God; therefore among all statements concerning salvation is scriptural baptism and by virtue of originating from the mind of God, and not from the mind of man, is essential to our salvation in that a failure to comply with this simple act clearly demonstrates a lack of faith in His promises. Be baptized for the remission of sin for the is God’s duty for man (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).
 

c.moore

New member
Rene

Billy graham , and all of TBN agree with the same gospel of salvation, not a wet one.

Maybe I have been listening to all of those christian tv and radio programs to much.

It might be also better to throw away my computer because of the gospel which is preached and the information of the real born again gospel is not a wet one, as you do, and work for to earn your working way to heaven.

I don´t like punching in time clocks, after doing religious works,

I do them because I was pyed in advance by Christ on the cross not the water .

I do because i am saved already , and my name is already in the book of life now.

I have salvation now so no wounder i do not to earn something I already have , but i work and use my faith because everything has already been done, it is Finished pass tense.
 

c.moore

New member
Re: Duddddddd!

Re: Duddddddd!

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Do you really think that I am trying to get you to BUY your salvation? Surly you don't believe I would be teaching that!! Salvation is a free gift from God but it is obtained in obedience to faith in Jesus Christ. This is simply doing what Jesus commanded. Does somene need to repent of sins before they are saved? Is this a work of merit or an obedience to faith in Christ?

Christ set the standards of acceptance. Salvation is a gift that is extended to those that obey Him (Read Hebrews 5:8-9).

All who are called to obey the gospel (Roman 1:16) are elected to salvation on obedience to the gospel. Election is not something that comes before obedience. You need to study this more, c. moore.

JustAChristian :angel:

Do you work for your christmas gifts or birthday gifts, or do you just recieve them freely without any works??????:confused:
 

JustAChristian

New member
Re: Re: Duddddddd!

Re: Re: Duddddddd!

Originally posted by c.moore

Do you work for your christmas gifts or birthday gifts, or do you just recieve them freely without any works??????:confused:

c.moore,
When I reach out to receive them am I not doing something to obtain them? Yes I am. I can not get the free gifts without obtaining them. That is exactly what "grace through faith" means. If I laid a $20.00 on the table and told you it was free for you, when do you receive it? if it stays on the table is it ever really yours or only when you reach out for it do you actually own it? This is how God's plan of salvation works. He gives us graciously and we obtain obediently. We believe, repent of sins, confess Jesus as Lord and are baptized for the remission of sin. This is because Jesus commanded it. God extends his gracious and loving forgivness when we obey Jesus. The whole of the New Testament explains this fully to the heart that is not closed. I hope someday your heart will be open to further investigate the fullness of the Law of Christ. Have a great rest of the day.

JustAChristian :angel:
 

c.moore

New member
That is the same like believing you use the faith by just believing in your heart and using your heart and your mouth if you can is the act of faith and believing which we are repented by and saved , washed as white as snow by recieving the blood of Jesus.

But to use a religious ritual, and religious works is losing grace by works.

It is like saying before you take the money first work an hour or two to earn the $20 by doing some kind of work first, and that would be a shame to the person giving the free money.

people try to make salvation hard and when it is easy it is in error.
 

rene

New member
But to use a religious ritual, and religious works is losing grace by works.

You can continue with your attempts to discredit the words of Jesus and His instructions in your desire to follow a teaching other than His.

It isn't like His words are hard to understand or grasp.

Mat 28:18 And having approached, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Me.
Mat 28:19 "When you* have gone, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to be observing all [things], as many as I commanded you*. And listen! I am with you* all the days, until the conclusion of the age! So be it!" [Gr. amen, and throughout NT].

Are you going to continue to attempt to justify not supporting the words and instructions of Jesus? Are you a follower of Jesus - or religious tv shows and the like?

Rene
 

c.moore

New member
1. At first there was only one baptism, John’s. It was necessary for salvation.
2. Then things started changing when Paul was saved.
3. The Holy Spirit fell on Gentiles before they were water baptized. Remember, water baptism was a sign to Jews to show Christ to them.
Sometime during his second missionary journey the Apostle Paul told the body of Christ about the baptisms which they knew of, in this manner: “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius . . . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel� (1 Co 1:14,17 Read in context.). From this we see that Paul was not under the great commission which was given to the circumcision apostles.
In the same epistle, he wrote, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks� (1 Co 12:13). So, water baptism had changed from being the only baptism, and necessary for salvation, to a ritual which had faded away.
Next, another very important incident happened. God finished showing Israel that they had been set aside. He had done this in a progressive manner which reached its conclusion in Acts 28:28. It started in Acts 13:46, continued in Acts 18:6, and was concluded in Acts 28:28.
After Israel had been shown that they had been set aside, Paul was inspired by God to write Ephesians. In Ephesians 4:3-6, Paul wrote about the unity of the Spirit. He was writing about God’s dealings with Christians today. He wrote, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, two baptisms.� What? It doesn’t say two baptisms? It says there “is one baptism�? Yes, that’s right. Which one is it then? It must be Spirit baptism since the Holy Spirit is still sealing members into the body of Christ.
Well then, we can see that the gospel message started out with one baptism, water. This was necessary for salvation. It progressed to two: water first, then, Holy Spirit baptism. The water baptism was still necessary for salvation. Finally, in this dispensation, it returned to one, Holy Spirit, which is now necessary for salvation. After the rapture of the body of Christ, the circumcision gospel will be in place again. Water baptism will become necessary for salvation again (1 Pet 3:18-22). So, both of your friends would be right and wrong. Therefore, we must always search the Scriptures to see what is right dispensationally.
With this in mind, we must study the history of water baptism in the Scriptures to come to the vital understanding of its relationship to the covenant of circumcision. We know that a number of baptisms are mentioned in the Old Testament. Numbers 19:9-21 shows that a water rite was necessary for salvation under the law.
Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. 10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them. 11 He who touches the dead body of anyone shall be unclean seven days. 12 He shall purify himself with the water on the third day and on the seventh day; then he will be clean. But if he does not purify himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not be clean. 13 Whoever touches the body of anyone who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD. That person shall be cut off from Israel. He shall be unclean, because the water of purification was not sprinkled on him; his uncleanness is still on him. 14 This is the law when a man dies in a tent: All who come into the tent and all who are in the tent shall be unclean seven days; 15 and every open vessel, which has no cover fastened on it, is unclean. 16 Whoever in the open field touches one who is slain by a sword or who has died, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days. 17 And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel. 18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave. 19 The clean person shall sprinkle the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day; and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, wash his clothes, and bathe in water; and at evening he shall be clean. 20 But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself, that person shall be cut off from among the assembly, because he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of purification has not been sprinkled on him; he is unclean. 21 It shall be a perpetual statute for them. He who sprinkles the water of purification shall wash his clothes; and he who touches the water of purification shall be unclean until evening.
Today, we can see that Jesus Christ, the lamb of God, is the antitype of the red heifer. So it’s easy to see why the Jews disputed with John the Baptist’s disciples about purification when he was baptizing the multitudes who came to him. This dispute probably arose because John was baptizing with authority. Yet, they seemed to think that he was not in compliance with the statutes of Numbers 19. Questions were asked. Why are you baptizing? Who are you? What is your authority? He gave his credentials by quoting the scriptures about the forerunner of Messiah. John had a commission to the nation. I believe the Scriptures show his purpose was to bring Israel back into covenant relationship with God. This would be accomplished by purification and remission of their sins. Zacharias’ prophecy in Luke 1:67-77 established this.
Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: 68 Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began, 71 That we should be saved from our enemies And from the hand of all who hate us, 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers And [notice] to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham: 74 To grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, 75 [notice] In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. 76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins.
In a future day, God said He would baptize (wash away the filth of) all Israel (Isa 4:3,4). God would also judge at that time. Isaiah’s prophecy seems to be pointing to the time of the tribulation. This and similar passages may explain why the whole nation was in expectation (Lk 3:15) and went out to John wondering if he was the Messiah.
It is interesting to see that under the law, the priests were baptized when they were thirty years old (Num. 4:2,3,23; 8:6,7; 1 Ch 23:3) in preparation for their consecration as priests (Ex 28:41-29:9). The anointing with oil during this consecration may represent the Holy Spirit. Since Peter’s message was a Jewish gospel (Acts 2:22,36), water baptism preceded Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 2:38).
God promised to make Israel a kingdom of priests in Exodus 19:5,6 and Isaiah 61:6.
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel (Ex 19:5,6).
But you shall be named the priests of the LORD, they shall call you the servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory you shall boast� (Is 61:6).
Since Isaiah 61:1,2 was fulfilled in Christ’s ministry, it is reasonable to believe that Isaiah 61:6 is linked with it also. The nation of Israel would be baptized to become a kingdom of priests. Isaiah 61:1,2a was quoted by Luke in Luke 4:16-21,
So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: 18 The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD. 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.
I believe John the Baptist baptized Israel in fulfillment of Exodus 19:5,6 and Isaiah 61:6. He baptized great crowds for the Lord from all the tribes, not just from the tribe of Levi, according to Matthew 3:5,6, “Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.� Apparently John sprinkled them with water just as Moses confirmed the old covenant with Israel using blood (Ex 24:3-8). Remember, in Ezekiel 36 God had promised to sprinkle them with water to make them clean. Again, it appears that John was preparing them to be a kingdom of priests. In Acts 2:38, Peter was doing the same thing. In fact, the circumcision believers were later called a royal priesthood by Peter in 1 Peter 2:5,9.
You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
John baptized Jesus when He was about 30 years old (Lk 3:23), possibly for His priesthood. This baptism was for the sins of the world just as His death baptism (Lk 12:50) was. That’s why He told John, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness� (Mat 3:15). Christ was also baptized with the Spirit (Jo. 1:33). These three baptisms witness to Christ’s provision of eternal life according to 1 John 5:8-11.
There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water, and the blood 9 . . . . for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son . . . . 11 And this is the witness: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
John the Baptist explained why he baptized Christ. It was to reveal to Israel that Jesus was the Messiah: “I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water� (Jo 1:31).
John preached a baptism for the remission of sins in Matthew 3:1-6 and Luke 3:3,8.
3:1-6 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!� 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.’� 4 And John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
3:3,8 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, 8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.�
This baptism was referred to as “a baptism of repentance� in Luke 3:3 and Acts 13:24 because the people confessed their sins while he was baptizing them (Mat 3:6). This is why John castigated the Pharisees and lawyers when they came to his baptism but were not willing to submit to this aspect of its meaning (Lk. 7:30). This baptism for repentance would be too humiliating for them. They preferred to resist the counsel of God for themselves. God’s counsel is that all have room for repentance (2 Pe 3:9) [1].
In Matthew 3:11, John said, “I indeed baptize you with water for repentance.� Their sins were forgiven when they submitted to this baptism while confessing their sins. This is why John’s baptism is also referred to as “a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins� (Lk 3:3). John 3:25 shows the Jews understood that the biblical purpose of baptism was purification. Whether or not they based their dispute directly on the purification of Numbers 19:9-21, we can see that John’s ministry was to bring “knowledge of salvation by the remission of their sins to His people,� Israel (Lk 1:76,77).
Therefore, we can draw the following conclusions concerning water baptism:
1. It is Jewish, based on Mosaic law.
2. It is an initiatory rite for the priesthood.
3. It accompanied true repentance and confession of sins.
4. It resulted in the remission of sins.
5. It is associated with the Messianic Kingdom and the new covenant.
Water baptism continued as a requirement for salvation after Pentecost because God continued to offer Israel the kingdom (Acts 3:19-26). If they had repented, God would have sent Christ back (Acts 3:20). Before Pentecost, Christ had commanded belief and water baptism as requirements for salvation shortly after His resurrection. Mark 16:16 says, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.� Both “believes� and “is baptized� are translated from aorist participles. According to Greek syntax [2], the action of these participles must precede the action of the main verb, “will be saved.� Therefore, a person had to believe and be baptized before he would be saved. When viewed in its setting of the circumcision covenant, this is consistent with the purification rituals which were imposed on Israel. [3]
Even after the Ascension of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit in Acts 2, God demanded water baptism for the remission of sins. “Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for (ei") the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’� (Acts 2:38).
Baptist Greek scholars have attempted to explain this difficult passage. Why is it difficult for them? Since they believe that the body of Christ began at or before Acts 2, and they affirm the Pauline doctrine that belief alone is required for salvation, Peter’s preaching of a “baptism for the remission of sins� poses a serious hermeneutical problem which they must reconcile.
In his monumental grammar, A.T. Robertson wrote, “only the context and the tenor of N.T. teaching can determine whether into, unto, or merely in or on (upon) is the right translation, a task for the interpreter, not for the grammarian.� [4] In other words, Robertson says your theological persuasion will cause you to interpret it the way you do. But is there a more objective way to find the meaning of the word eij"? How can we ascertain its meaning in this text? We will see this is done only by thorough observation.
To begin with, years after he authored his grammar, Robertson wrote,
This phrase is the subject of endless controversy as men look at it from the standpoint of sacramental or of evangelical theology. In themselves the words can express aim or purpose for that use of ei" does exist as in I Cor. 2:7 ei" doxan hmwn (for our glory).� [5]
I want to emphasize the fact that ei" generally means for, into, or unto. J.B. Smith tabulated the translation of eij" in the KJV. [6] He showed it occurs 1773 times. Of these 1773 times, it is always translated with the idea of aim or purpose. It occurs 573 times as into, 281 as to, 207 as unto, 140 as for, 138 as in, 58 as on, 29 as toward, 26 as against, 26 as to (with the definite article), 24 times as upon etc. In other words, aim or purpose is the sense of ei" in the New Testament.
Robertson continued,
But then another usage exists which is just as good Greek as the use of ei" for aim or purpose. It is seen in Matt. 10:41,42 in three examples ei" onoma profhtou, ei" onoma dikaiou, ei" onoma maqhtou where it cannot be purpose or aim, but rather the basis or ground, on the basis of the name of prophet, righteous man, disciple, because one is, etc.� [7]
I must be quick to point out that Smith does not list one instance where the translation of ei" is “on the basis� or “because one is.� Unfortunately, Robertson’s interpretation was not driven by his comprehensive understanding of Greek grammar or by linguistics, but by his theological position. Ironically, Robertson is the best source to refute his strained interpretation of ei" here. He wrote that the phrase, “In the name of,� is a common expression and quite suitable to the interpretation of the text. He showed that ei*" has displaced en in modern Greek. He even used Matthew 12:41 as an example. [8]
He continued,
It is seen again in Matt. 12:41 about the preaching of Jonah (ei" to khrugma Iwna). They repented because of (or at) the preaching of Jonah. The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koine generally (Robertson, Grammar, p. 592).
However, Robertson does not list any further references of the “numerous� usages of ei*" as “on the basis,� etc., in his grammar on p. 592. But, he is honest and admits that “One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not.� [9]
Dana and Mantey, also Baptist scholars, have an excellent article on this subject in their Greek grammar. [10] But after showing that Mantey’s examples of causal uses of ei" were forced, Turner wrote, “By way of reply, R. Marcus observed that if Mantey is right to interpret these NT passages causally his support must come from theology rather than linguistics.� [11]
Robertson continued,
My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.� [12]
This interpretation would be the answer Robertson sought, but he came to this conclusion only by citing four obscure instances where he thought ei" should be translated “on the basis,� or “on the ground.� But these instances in Matthew 10:41,42 could be translated more in line with the general meaning of the word, “with a view of�, or “in the sphere of,� and Matthew 12:41 could be translated “they repented into the preaching (khrugma) of Jonah,� that is “into a state of harmony with Jonah’s prophecy,� or “into the object of Jonah’s preaching, righteousness,� or as Turner wrote, “but at is sufficient.� [13]
The important thing to see about Robertson’s argument is this: He took two controversial passages (Matt. 10:41; 12:41) where the meaning is unsure in order to try to prove his point. He could not produce anything stronger. There is nothing to substantiate his translation of this word in the other 1700 plus times it is used.
Robertson truly had reason to try to explain away the normal understanding of this passage, for others have definitely asserted its importance for forgiveness of sins. Pedobaptist Oscar Cullman wrote,
Why is [baptism] further bound up with the immersion for forgiveness of sins that John already practiced, following the precedent of proselyte baptism? It was understandable that proselyte baptism and Johannine baptism should be represented as an act of washing, because its effect was forgiveness of sins. Just as ordinary water takes away the physical uncleanness of the body, so the water of baptism will take away sins. [14]
That able Lutheran expositor, Lenski, also strongly asserted,
The aorist imperative is one of authority and demands a decisive act that is to stand once for all. . . . “Repent� is plural, but “be baptized� has the distributive singular subject “everyone of you.� The two acts, however, always go together in the case of adults, and all difficulty disappears when we properly conceive them as a unit. Let us not separate them. . . . Jesus continued John’s baptism (John 4:1,2). This baptism was not only symbolical. As practiced by both John and Jesus and then as being appointed for all nations it bestowed the remission of sins and was thus a true sacrament. The Twelve, as far as we know, had been baptized only with John’s baptism. . . . “Everyone of you� makes repentance and baptism personal in the highest degree. Salvation deals with each individual. Note the universality: “everyone,� no matter what his condition or position may be. . . . This preposition [eis] connects remission so closely with baptism that nobody has as yet been able to separate the two. It is this gift of remission that makes baptism a true sacrament; otherwise it would be only a sign or a symbol that conveys nothing real. In order to make baptism such a symbol, we are told that Peter’s phrase means only that baptism pictures remission, a remission we may obtain by some other means at some later day. But this alters the force of Peter’s words. Can one persuade himself that Peter told these sinners who were stricken with their terrible guilt to accept a baptism that pointed to some future remission? Had he no remission to offer them now? And when and how could they get that remission, absolutely the one thing they must have? And how can Ananias in 22:16 say, “Be baptized and wash away thy sins!� as though the water of baptism washed them away by its connection with the Name? [15]
C.S. Lovett, a Baptist, dealt with the problem in his commentary on Acts. His explanation of Acts 2:38 is similar to the reasoning of my thesis.
BAPTIZED. This is for Jews ONLY, specifically those guilty of publicly shaming and crucifying their Messiah. Since they denied Him openly, Peter demands they acknowledge Him openly. He requires the Lord’s method of identification, i.e., the long established custom of Jewish water baptism. It was done in a public place with the phrase, ‘In the name of Jesus of Nazareth’ said over them. Such a public acknowledgment would result in the loss of all things precious to Jews. Done in the face of the Sanhedrin and the mobs which hated Christ, it was solid evidence they had really changed their minds about Jesus. The baptism was identical to that of John the Baptist, only this time they had to mean it. The price was too high for phonies to participate. The outward act certified the inward revolution of mind which made them eligible for the gift of God. Jewish baptism differs from Christian baptism in that it occurs BEFORE salvation, indicating repentance. [16]
The apparent source of Lovett’s comments was Arno C. Gaebelein. Gaebelein was also a strong (though Baptistic) dispensationalist.
Repentance and baptism stand out very prominently in this answer to the conscience-stricken Jews, and attached to it is the promise of the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. These words not being correctly understood, have led to much confusion. Upon these words doctrines, especially concerning water baptism, have been built, which are not alone nowhere else taught in the Bible, but which are opposed to the Gospel. The words of Peter to his Jewish brethren have been used to make water-baptism a saving ordinance, that only by submission to water-baptism, with repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, can remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit be obtained. . . . We must bear in mind that Peter addressed those who had openly rejected Jesus. They had, therefore, also openly to acknowledge their wrong and thus openly own Him as Messiah, whom they had disowned by delivering Him into the hands of lawless men. Repentance meant for them to own their guilt in having opposed and rejected Jesus. Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (in which it differs from the baptism of John) was the outward expression of that repentance. It was for these Jews, therefore, [notice] a preliminary necessity. And here we must not forget that Peter’s preaching on the day of Pentecost had it still to do with the kingdom [17], as we shall more fully learn from his second address in the third chapter. Another offer of the kingdom was made to the nation [My emphasis.] . . . . Remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit comes by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. In connection with the Jews, baptism was a condition [My emphasis.]. There is no such condition for Gentiles. The case of Cornelius and those who were assembled in his house to whom Peter preached the Gospel, illustrates this fully. He had not mentioned a word about baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. When he had declared that through “His Name� whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins, his address was cut short; “the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the Word� (chapter x:44). This clearly proves that baptism in water has nothing to do with the gift of the Holy Spirit to these believing Gentiles. Water baptism followed in their case. [18]
Finally, a recent attempt to answer the problem by Robert Gromacki appeared in “Confident Living,� pp. 10,11. Gromacki presented a solid argument under the titles, “Immediate Context, Greater Context, Ministry of John the Baptist,� and “Doctrine of Salvation.� However, his argument from “Grammar� is only an argument using grammar. It does not prove what he asserts. He wrote,
The grammar of the verse indicates that only repentance is required to receive remission of sins. Here is my translation of the verse from the Greek, using some extra words to bring out some key differences not observable in the English text: “Repent [you, plural], and let each one [singular] of you be baptized [singular], upon the name of Jesus Christ into the remission of sins, and you will receive [you, plural] the gift of the Holy Spirit.� The command to repent and the promise to receive are both plural verbs. The command to be baptized is singular. The imperative (“let each one of you be baptized�) is parenthetical. Peter’s actual command was: “Repent . . . upon the name of Jesus Christ into the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.� Peter gave the audience only one thing to do in order to receive the remission of sins. There was only one direct command: “Repent [you, plural].�
Gromacki’s interpretation is not correct for a number of reasons. To begin with, there were two commands: Repent! Be baptized! They were both plural commands (even though “be baptized� is a singular verb) since the use of ekasto", each one, distributes the command among the plural you, umwn. ekasto" is frequently used this way in the Greek New Testament. I will present a few examples:
Luke 2:3 So all went (plural) to be registered, everyone (singular) to his own city.
Acts 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone (singular) heard (plural) them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:8 “And how is it that we hear (plural), each (singular) in our own (plural) language in which we were born?
1 Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together (plural), each (singular) of you has (singular) a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
2 Co 5:10 For we (plural) must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each (singular) one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Phil 2:4 Let each (singular) of you look out (plural) not only for his (ta eautwn, plural) own interests, but also for the interests of others.
Heb 8:11 “None (singular) of them (supplied) shall teach (plural) his (singular) neighbor, and none (singular) his (singular) brother, saying (singular), ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know (plural) Me, from the least (singular) of them (plural) to the greatest (singular) of them (plural).
Rev 20:13 And they were judged (plural), each one (singular) according to his (plural) works.
Next, his translation was not accurate. The following is the Greek text according to the United Bible Societies followed by the NKJV. Acts 2:38 Petro" de (Then Peter) pro" autou" ([fhsin] said to them), metanohsate (Repent, plural), kai (and) baptisqhtw (let be baptized, singular) ekasto" (each) umwn (of you, plural) epi tw onomati Ihsou Cristou (in the name of Jesus Christ) ei" (for) afesin (remission) twn amartiwn (of the sins) umwn (of you, plural); kai lhmyesqe (and you, plural, shall receive) thn dwrean tou agiou pneumato" (the gift of the Holy Spirit).
Finally, although Gromacki teaches Greek, he seems to be unaware that a partitive genitive occurs with ekasto" in this passage. Blass, Debrunner and Funk state, “The partitive genitive or the genitive of the divided whole . . . . is exclusively used with ekasto".� [19] pa" (all) before an anarthrous substantive means everyone (not, each one, like ekasto", but anyone). [20]
Therefore, by taking the natural meaning of this passage, we see that water baptism was essential, at that time, for the remission of sins. This requirement fits right into the other passages which show that water baptism was an imposed condition for salvation under the covenant of circumcision.
 

JustAChristian

New member
Originally posted by c.moore

That is the same like believing you use the faith by just believing in your heart and using your heart and your mouth if you can is the act of faith and believing which we are repented by and saved , washed as white as snow by recieving the blood of Jesus.

But to use a religious ritual, and religious works is losing grace by works.

It is like saying before you take the money first work an hour or two to earn the $20 by doing some kind of work first, and that would be a shame to the person giving the free money.

people try to make salvation hard and when it is easy it is in error.

washed as white as snow by recieving the blood of Jesus.

c. moore,

If you could prove this statement then you would have a valid argument for your position. Give us scripture about "receiving the blood of Jesus." One verse....no, just a half a verse...maybe even a quarter of a verse...


JustAChristian :angel:
 
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rene

New member
Moore, you can cut and paste others words - but the point still before you is why you discount and call minor a teaching of Jesus by one who makes the claim to be a follower of Jesus. One that is a follower - follows the teachings.

You have just proven that you follow others teachings over the teachings of Jesus. His teaching that you called minor.

You may think that such actions are those of a Christian - but with a small amount of study of scriptures, you will find such an approach is not.

Repent. Start following the one that you claim to follow vs. the teachings of men that you follow. Jesus teachings lead to eternal life. The teachings of mankind that go against the teachings of Jesus are covered in Matthew.

Mat 7:20 "Consequently, by their fruits you* will know them.
Mat 7:21 "Not every one saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, _but_ the one doing the will of My Father, the [One] in [the] heavens.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and did many miraculous works in Your name, did we not?
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you*; be departing from Me, the ones practicing lawlessness!'
Mat 7:24 "Therefore, every [one] who hears these words of Mine and does them, I will compare him to a wise man who built his house on the solid rock;
Mat 7:25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat against that house, and it did not fall, for it had been founded on the solid rock.
Mat 7:26 "And every [one] hearing these words of Mine and not doing them will be compared to a foolish man who built his house on the sand;
Mat 7:27 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat against that house, and it fell, and its fall was great."
Mat 7:28 And it happened, when Jesus finished these words, the crowds were being astonished at His teaching,
Mat 7:29 for He was teaching them as [One] having authority and not like the scribes.

Rene
 

c.moore

New member
rene

you are going through a loop of misinterpretated scriptures, and a old testament gospel which you try to make NT, it won`t work.
You use the same old scriptures to try to justify your OT gospel.
We still don`t use animal sacrifices, or go to the temples to a preist and have a tabernacle any more, sorry they don`t work , and the same is with the water baptismo rituals or infrant baptismo , today the salvation is with the heart not with proving of religious works that doesn`t impress my God.
Try using your spirit and heart not your emotions and feelings, and reasonings.
 

rene

New member
Moore, what I quoted to you were the words of Jesus - found in Matthew which is not the "old testament" nor incorrectly interpreted since I used the Analytical-Literal translation of the new testament. You again show you real lack of understanding of scripture and study of it.

What you have proven is that you like cliche' comments - that you can't support with scripture. That you can cut and paste to copy the words of others because you can't support. That you still attempt to side step issues by bring up other things that have nothing to do with the topic at all.

You belittled the words and teaching of Jesus. You called them minor. Your version of sharing what you call the gospel doesn't follow the same instructions given by Jesus:

Mat 28:18 And having approached, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Me.
Mat 28:19 "When you* have gone, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to be observing all [things], as many as I commanded you*. And listen! I am with you* all the days, until the conclusion of the age! So be it!" [Gr. amen, and throughout NT].

See the words all? No pick and choose here. No buffet approach to the teachings of Jesus.
See the word command? It wasn't a suggestion - as you like to teach.

So - whose teaching you going to follow? Yours? or the words of Jesus - the one you claim to follow?

Rene
 
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