The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

hello kevin

Christ lived a perfect obedient, sinless life before His Father, and was therefore an acceptable sacrifice to bear the sins of the world and give the hope of salvation through Him. That I will agree with. It was because of His obedience to the Father that salavation was made possible.

so I do see you admit we are righteous through Jesus obedience.

Also by Jesus obedience we have salvation when we believe in Jesaus and trust Him.

But even after that, Christ expects US to keep His commandments. Just look at the Great Commission:

So now you cancel out what Jesus has done for us by putting "But" in your quote, and you now say we must keep commandments to get salvation , and when you say this , this is earning a salvation, or trying to get good brownie points, and commandment merit to heaven and salvation, but this also cancels out the grace , because we are now trying to boast about our salvation on the good commandment we, try to keep, and this is not the good message and your belief stops the free gift and good news of Christ.

It is not the matter of keeping the comandments that save us, and make us sons and daughter of Christ it is a matter and the salvation key to be with Jesus is recieving and accepting Jesus, and His blood.
Joh:1:11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh:5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

we are born again and saved by the washing of the Word 1Pe:1:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

When a person is really born again and saved by repentance and the blood of Jesus , the proof of his or her seed or key to the Kingdom of God is the christian walk after being saved.

It is like we can`t see the winds but if the winds are really blowing you will see the effectsof the winds, but first there must be winds first and not the effect and then comes the winds.

a caterpillar is first a worm like creature, and but it is on it`s way to be a beautiful butter fly at the end, and you can`t say a caterpillar has to be first a butter fly before it can be a living new born creature, and this again is basically what you believe in your baptism theology.

Let me give another thought about salvation and being saved.

When I give my son a new car and I give him all he need to own the car , and he say no, I must first obey all you commands and house rules whatever it is , and keep everything clean, then when I am think I have passed all the commandment tests then I can take the key and own the car, this would disappoint mebecause my som hasn`t recieve my free gift with no works included, I would be sad and even angry.

Now I see another way you also explain about Mark 16:16 is like my son believes he has the car and he does take the key and the car which he owns, but the gift or the car is not completly carried out because he does drive the car he just looks at the gift and doesn`t even get in and act like he owns the car.
"But" even though he doesn`t drive the car and obeys to drive and act like the owner, doesn`t my son still have a car,which is the who point,even though he doesn`t work the car???

But when he doesn`t drive the car and take care of it , it will fall apart , and he will have no car no more which is the same way how some say they are OSAS which is not all true because doing nothing with your salvation will make you drift away from Jesus, but at first you did have salvation just like at first instantly with out driving the car you had a new car which no one can deny.

Now you would be a fool if you have a new car and didn´t drive it wouldn`t you???

So the same with being saved, I would be a fool not to obey the commandments when I know already i have salvation, and everlasting life and love my Father.

I hope this is a clearer example of the free gift of believing and trust Jesus and being saved without a baptism ritual.

Yes it is good and please the Father after being completly saved to get baptized, and wet,teach other, witness,pray for others , love others,go to church,be a cheerful giver and do what ever you can for the Kingdom of >God.

If we were washed of ours sins BEFORE baptism, then why did Peter tell the Jews in Acts 2:38 to be baptized for the remission of sins AFTER they believed?

The Jews did at that time have still the tradition of John of water baptism which the Jew followed , but the main thing and the key is the believing first that get them saved, ands also the baptism is in the following of Jesus.

Christ has already shed His blood so that our sins can be forgiven over 2000 years ago. Forgiveness of sins has since then been made available to all mankind. However, only those who do what Christ commanded for the remission of sins would be washed clean by His blood (otherwise everybody would have their sins forgiven for doing nothing).

No, not everyone could automatically be saved , but anyone who recieves which I have mention above, recieving and believing, and that is what many people don`t do and accept or recieve.

Just like you can I can give everybody a car if I was a billionaire, but this is not true because not everyone will want to take a car from me,or recieve the free car, and the same is with salvation it is a free gift of grace not earn or obeyed , or sacrificed for in any way.

Heb:9:20: Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb:9:21: Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb:9:22: And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb:9:23: It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb:9:24: For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Heb:10:10: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb:10:11: And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb:10:12: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb:10:13: From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb:10:14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb:10:15: Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb:10:16: This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb:10:17: And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb:10:18: Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb:10:19: Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,



God Bless

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by rene
If you notice, I used quotation marks. It was a quote from "Freak". He made several such 'proclamations' - all along the same line. "Freak" was directing those words towards Kevin.

I quoted scripture back at his rather - shall we say 'rude' words.

As born again really christians , when somebody slaps us on one side of the cheek turn and give them the other cheek.

When somebody yells in one ear, give him or her the other ear.


Fight evil with good, and bless those who might curse you.


God Bless

 

[rene]

"As born again really christians , when somebody slaps us on one side of the cheek turn and give them the other cheek."
and
"When somebody yells in one ear, give him or her the other ear."
and
"Fight evil with good, and bless those who might curse you."

My reply - WELL, I do know the verse that tells us to turn the other cheek. Even had a prof. tell some interesting insights into what that means within the culture not only of that time - but still of those withn that area today. To 'turn the other cheek' is a declaration of being equal to the one doing the hitting. A hit with the back of the hand is an insult, suggesting one is lower than the other whereas to hit open handed not with the back of the hand another - declares that they are equal. Just thought I would toss that one out there for you...

My reply to people when they suggest that the only responce is to 'turn the other cheek' is to point out to them that the scripture does not indicate one also has to tie their hands behind their backs.

My intent when making the reply was to point out the obvious - such an attiude as he showed needed to be addressed. I made the choice of scripture to do that. Mostly with the HOPE that he might actually start reading ALL the scriptures and not just pick and choose. Such an approach is not one of a mature fully grounded Christian.

 

[c.moore]

rene


Do you believe in the same teaching as Kevin that you have to get wet or baptized before being saved??

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,

Yes indeed, it was your good friend Freak to asked God to curse me.
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:think:

What, you don't believe me? Why would I make this up? Look for yourself:

"Let me warn you in the strongest of terms, Kevin, you have bought into Satan's lies--believing water saves. You will not inherit God's kingdom believing that lie. I pray, in the Name of Jesus, that God curse you for speaking heresy. Watch your life fall apart mentally and in many other ways.....

Take heed..."

Here's the link: http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7912&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

You may not be able to come to terms with this, but yes, Freak did say this to me. It's towards the bottom of page 5 in the "I'm curious to know what happens to unbaptized believers?" thread.

 

[rene]

I believe that one has to hear the gospel. Believe the gospel. Repent of the sins. Confess of not just knowing that one has sinned, but acceptance of Jesus as Savior. Be baptized.

Can you think of any person within the NT that isn't/wasn't baptized that is redeemed, called a follower of Jesus, a Christian?

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

so I do see you admit we are righteous through Jesus obedience.

As said before, it is because of His obedience that salvation was made possible. I've never denied this. What I do deny is that this somehow make us exempt from keeping the commandments of Christ.

But even after that, Christ expects US to keep His commandments. Just look at the Great Commission:
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So now you cancel out what Jesus has done for us by putting "But" in your quote, and you now say we must keep commandments to get salvation , and when you say this , this is earning a salvation, or trying to get good brownie points, and commandment merit to heaven and salvation, but this also cancels out the grace , because we are now trying to boast about our salvation on the good commandment we, try to keep, and this is not the good message and your belief stops the free gift and good news of Christ.

If your done with your unbiblical rhetoric, would you please deal with the verse I provided as proof that we are to obey His commandmnts? You didn't even touch it. Here it is, again:

Mat 28:19-20 (MKJV)
19) Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching THEM to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

According to verse 20, WHO is to observe all things, Christ or us?

It is not the matter of keeping the comandments that save us, and make us sons and daughter of Christ it is a matter and the salvation key to be with Jesus is recieving and accepting Jesus, and His blood.
Joh:1:11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh:5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Well of course it's our faith in Christ. But if that faith doesn't lead to obedience, that faith will NOT save. Again Acts 2 is a perfect example of how sinners are converted. They had faith, and they acted upon it.

we are born again and saved by the washing of the Word 1Pe:1:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That's right, without the word of God, one couldn't be born again. Remember this is Peter talking here, the same Peter who preached in Acts 2. When the Jews asked him what to do to be saved, why didn't he tell them to just believe? WHY?

Peter spoke the word of God, which led to them believing, and they believed and obeyed Peter when he answered their question on how to be saved: Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins! It was through the word of God that all this is made possible.

When a person is really born again and saved by repentance and the blood of Jesus , the proof of his or her seed or key to the Kingdom of God is the christian walk after being saved.

See above. Why didn't Peter tell them to just believe?

a caterpillar is first a worm like creature, and but it is on it`s way to be a beautiful butter fly at the end, and you can`t say a caterpillar has to be first a butter fly before it can be a living new born creature, and this again is basically what you believe in your baptism theology.

No, I don't believe or preach that way, as I've alread addressed.

Let me give another thought about salvation and being saved.

When I give my son a new car and I give him all he need to own the car , and he say no, I must first obey all you commands and house rules whatever it is , and keep everything clean, then when I am think I have passed all the commandment tests then I can take the key and own the car, this would disappoint mebecause my som hasn`t recieve my free gift with no works included, I would be sad and even angry.

You still don't get the free gift thing. Christ came and died for ours sins, and there's NO way we could have earned God's gift of salvation through His Son. Christ died on the cross so that we can have salvation. Salvation was freely given, but that salvation won't be given to those who disobey Him (Heb 5:9).

So the same with being saved, I would be a fool not to obey the commandments when I know already i have salvation, and everlasting life and love my Father

Again, the disobedient will NOT be saved. You have to OBEY the gospel:

2Thess. 1:5-9 (MKJV)
5) For this is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer,
6) since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,
7) and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,
8) in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
9) who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Yes it is good and please the Father after being completly saved to get baptized,

I would like to know how a person is saved when he is alive to sin and dead to God. Romans 6 makes it quite clear that we crucify the man of sin through baptism. Verse 7 says that it is THOSE WHO HAVE DIED WHO HAVE BEEN FREED FROM SIN. And how do we die with Christ? Through BAPTISM (verse 4). If you have not died with Christ, you are still ALIVE to SIN and DEAD to God. But if you have died with Christ, being freed from sin, you have DIED to SIN and are ALIVE to GOD (Rom. 6:11).

If we were washed of ours sins BEFORE baptism, then why did Peter tell the Jews in Acts 2:38 to be baptized for the remission of sins AFTER they believed?
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The Jews did at that time have still the tradition of John of water baptism which the Jew followed , but the main thing and the key is the believing first that get them saved, ands also the baptism is in the following of Jesus.

I can see you've been note taking from HopeofGlory. The people who were baptized in Acts 2 were baptized in the name of the Lord, which is different from John's baptism (Acts 19:1-5). Paul, HopeofGlory's favorite apostle, also baptized people in the name of the Lord (Acts 19:5).... why is that?

No, not everyone could automatically be saved , but anyone who recieves which I have mention above, recieving and believing, and that is what many people don`t do and accept or recieve.

Beleif will profit you nothing if you don't do what Christ commanded for the remission of sins. If you haven't had your sins forgiven, you won't make it to heaven. The burden of proof is on you to show me when baptism was no longer the method of forgivness of sins after Acts 2.

 

[c.moore]

Quote kevin
I'm curious to know what happens to unbaptized believers?" thread.


Quote c.moore

They will not be condemn, and they will come into the Kingdom of Heaven, and they will be in the lamb book of life, and they will have eternal life in heaven , "but" they might lose their crown or rewards for not being baptized and disobeying the following of Jesus baptism ritual.
It would be not so good to here jesus say i am not proud of you not being baptized, and he won`t say well done my faithful son, but you will still be a son because of God grace and mercy.


M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

So the question should be is those who believeth also damned?

God Bless

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by rene
I believe that one has to hear the gospel. Believe the gospel. Repent of the sins. Confess of not just knowing that one has sinned, but acceptance of Jesus as Savior. Be baptized.

Can you think of any person within the NT that isn't/wasn't baptized that is redeemed, called a follower of Jesus, a Christian?

Yes,the thief on the cross.


God bless

 

[Francisco]

c.moore,

The thief on the cross did not have an opportunity to receive the normative means of remission of original sin and grafting into the Body of Christ through water baptism. He received his baptism by desire. And many martyrs died while in their catachumenate period before they were water baptized, and so received martyrs baptism or baptism of blood.

However, people who do have the opportunity to receive the normative baptism by water are commanded to do so by Jesus Christ, as you well know.

Out of curiosity, have you ever been baptized in water?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[c.moore]

Yes , it is a commandment to be baptized , but it is not salvation , it is the thing to do in you christian walk after being saved.

Yes, i`ve been baptized three times, and the first two times I just needed a bath , meaning I went in a dry sinner , and came out a wet sinner.


but answering the question about has anyone been not baptized in the new testament would still be the thief on the cross, or any one not alive to make it a water baptism, like if somebody dies after believing,repenting , and trust Jesus before they get baptized is still in the will of God and is faithful.
Now our church is so big and the baptism is so large we have people getting saved everyday by us so we can´t have a baptism everyday , so we have them every two or three month and sometimes the people miss them so if they have to wait till next year even to get baptized , their heart is willing to get baptized and that is what counts, to symbolize to others their choice for Christ in the open.

God Bless

 

[c.moore]

Kevin you asked:
Mat 28:19-20 (MKJV)
19) Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching THEM to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

According to verse 20, WHO is to observe all things, Christ or us?

quote
c.moore
But how can you teach when a person haven`t learned yet?

This is why we need to disciple new born christian and they need to be washed in the Word of God first so they know what to do after they have become sons and daughter in Christ Jesus.

Yes we are to observe the things of Christ but please keep thing in order, and in the right time period.

I can`t say to my son first talk walk, think,and finish school before you can become my son.

my son is in my family freely as soon as he is born, and the same is as soon as we are born agin spritually , we are instantly sons and daughters in the Kingdom of God without any kind of work obedience, commandment, rituals,sacrifices, or works.

the same is when I go to an homless house where I can adopt some child I just pick a child I think would be my child without any kind of works, it is a kind of grace that I pick taht one child out of many freely.
So is by us with God we are choosen from many and we don`t have to do anything to be in the family except recieve it.

Now if a orphan child say`s he doesn´t want to be in my family them he is not accepted, or if that child runs away he is no more in the family , but even if he just sits around and does nothing in the faily but stills wants to be a part of the family he will still remain a child of my family but I would not be please with his no working, and not obeying me, the same is with God, but God has alot more patience , and love for His children than we can think.

Again I will say when we are saved first then God will what us to obey HIm and then Heb 5:9 comes into action but not before the person is saved unless you believe first obey, then maybe your believing will be accepted, after judgement day.

God Bless

 

[Francisco]

c.moore,

Yes , it is a commandment to be baptized , but it is not salvation , it is the thing to do in you christian walk after being saved.

It would be difficult to be baptized after you're saved since we must endure to the end to be saved:

"He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13)

Yes, i`ve been baptized three times, and the first two times I just needed a bath , meaning I went in a dry sinner , and came out a wet sinner.

You seem to imply that the third time you came out of the baptismal waters a different person than the previous two times. How were you different, and why?

but answering the question about has anyone been not baptized in the new testament would still be the thief on the cross, or any one not alive to make it a water baptism, like if somebody dies after believing,repenting , and trust Jesus before they get baptized is still in the will of God and is faithful.

Exactly what I mean by 'baptism of desire' and 'martyr's baptism.'

Now our church is so big and the baptism is so large we have people getting saved everyday by us so we can´t have a baptism everyday , so we have them every two or three month and sometimes the people miss them so if they have to wait till next year even to get baptized , their heart is willing to get baptized and that is what counts, to symbolize to others their choice for Christ in the open.

While I agree with the point of your comment, that those who may die before they have the opportunity to be baptized are presumably baptized by their desire, I must take issue with the portion I bolded.

No one is being saved by you and your church c.moore. All salvation is through the merits of Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[c.moore]

hello fancisco

you said:
It would be difficult to be baptized after you're saved since we must endure to the end to be saved:

"He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13)


quote c.moore

what happens if the rapture comes before the end are we saved those who believed??

in this verse it looks like it is taking about the end times, at the time of tribulation and there is a struggle to stay saved after being attacked, and I think this is the question in all that tribulation last day prophecy are the ones left behind able to keep their faith , and stay saved to the end even if it will cost them their lives???

the first two time I had no relationship with Jesus , and I got baptized religiously knowing alot about the bible and Jesus but I didn`t know ´Jesus.

the second time I got baptize was a baptism I didN`t even know I was being baptized , they just said put on a white robe and I thought it was a ritual , but they didn`t even tell me I was going to get baptized , because their object was to get people wet as soon as possible and they had that belief of not being saved unless you are baptized .
The Church was called Mission Church of Christ.
I even recieved a baptismal packet from the showing I was baptized in black and white.

the third time I feel out in the Holy ghost and the Spirit of God fill on me and I knew I was saved before I got baptized so i went in the water saved and I came out showing others what happen in my spiritual life , that i was buried in Christ , and i come out the water with a new powerful filled new life in the annointing of God healing people , witnessing the Word of God with power and authority praise God.

When I say my church help them to get saved or I help them to get saved, is that we are a willing tool to be used by God to witness the sinners prayers to them or show them the way.
They hear the Word of God in our church that open their heart so the church is used for their salvation so they recieve in our church the free good news gospel of Christ or when I teach and preach on tv , i lead the people into the sinners prayeror when they call me I pray them through the sinners prayer and get them set up to be taugh how to walk the christian walk after they get saved.
So yes we are willing tools for the Kingdom of God Acts 1:8.

When I am teaching and showing others the way , I love it because it is easy and no debates included , they are so hungry for the truth they just accept praise God by the multitudes.

God Bless

 

[Francisco]

c.moore,

hello fancisco

you said:
It would be difficult to be baptized after you're saved since we must endure to the end to be saved:

"He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13)


quote c.moore

what happens if the rapture comes before the end are we saved those who believed??

in this verse it looks like it is taking about the end times, at the time of tribulation and there is a struggle to stay saved after being attacked, and I think this is the question in all that tribulation last day prophecy are the ones left behind able to keep their faith , and stay saved to the end even if it will cost them their lives???

I would like to make two points here. First, the 'end' this verse speaks of is the end of our life. In another verse, when Paul is very near to the end of his life, he writes to Timothy:

"For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Tim. 4:6-8)

Paul is very clear that he knew the end of his life was very near. He knew he had 'fought the good fight' and 'finished the race', which is exactly what 'enduring to the end' means. Earlier in Paul's life he wrote very clearly that he did NOT have any infallible assurance that he was 'eternally secure':

"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).

And:

"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27)

Paul knew better than to count himself among the 'saved' until he had 'finished the race' and 'endured to the end.'

The second point I would like to make regards the 'pre-tibulation rapture' theory. This is a theory developed largely by a fellow named John Nelson Darby to whom the invention of dispensationalism is also attributed, and subsequently promulgated by C.I. Schofield in the footnotes of the Schofield version of the KJV bible. The theory varies from group to group, but consists primarily of a theory that Christ will sneak back to earth one more time before the perousia to 'rapture' the faithful from the earth, that is if you hold to the pre-tribulationalist view of the rapture theory. This theory is completely unscriptural since the bible declares very clearly that Christ will come again 'with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God' (1 Thess 4:16). All three scriptures that reference the tribulation and rapture always place the rapture AFTER the tribulation. See Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12.

So, in answer to your question about those who are still alive when the rapture occurs, if they remained faithful until the end, even during the great tribulation, then they will be saved as they have 'endured to the end.'

the first two time I had no relationship with Jesus , and I got baptized religiously knowing alot about the bible and Jesus but I didn`t know ´Jesus.

the second time I got baptize was a baptism I didN`t even know I was being baptized , they just said put on a white robe and I thought it was a ritual , but they didn`t even tell me I was going to get baptized , because their object was to get people wet as soon as possible and they had that belief of not being saved unless you are baptized .
The Church was called Mission Church of Christ.
I even recieved a baptismal packet from the showing I was baptized in black and white.

the third time I feel out in the Holy ghost and the Spirit of God fill on me and I knew I was saved before I got baptized so i went in the water saved and I came out showing others what happen in my spiritual life , that i was buried in Christ , and i come out the water with a new powerful filled new life in the annointing of God healing people , witnessing the Word of God with power and authority praise God.

It appears from what you have just told me that you received a valid baptism the first time you were baptized. That didn't mean you were 'saved' as in 'eternally secure', but you were forgiven your sins and grafted into the body of Christ and received some share of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, just as Peter promised the Jews they would receive through baptism at Acts 2:38. I'm assuming that you were sincerely desiring a union with Christ at your first baptism.

The third time you spoke of being filled with the Holy Spirit sounds similar to the Catholic equivalent of Confirmation which is a second sealing with the Spirit and a receiving of a larger share of the Spirit, just as the Church received at Pentecost. You had matured as a Christian by the time you received your third baptism and your desire to be united completely to Christ was even stronger, thus you received the gift of the Spirit in a fuller measure than at your first baptism.

When I say my church help them to get saved or I help them to get saved, is that we are a willing tool to be used by God to witness the sinners prayers to them or show them the way.

But that is not what you said. You said "we have people getting saved everyday by us".

They hear the Word of God in our church that open their heart so the church is used for their salvation so they recieve in our church the free good news gospel of Christ or when I teach and preach on tv , i lead the people into the sinners prayeror when they call me I pray them through the sinners prayer and get them set up to be taugh how to walk the christian walk after they get saved.
So yes we are willing tools for the Kingdom of God Acts 1:8.

I'm gald to hear you are a willing tool for God's use. But doesn't all this contradict what you have been saying? You repeatedly say ALL you have to do is 'BELIEVE.' But now you say they must say 'the sinners prayer', etc... Are they saved, according to your position, before or after they say the 'sinners prayer'? This sounds like the 'works salvation' you have previously accused Catholics of adhering to.

Also, if they fail to 'walk the christian walk after they get saved', does that mean they lose their salvation? You told me before you believed a person can lose their salvation if they turn their back on Jesus. Does not walking the Christian walk constitute turning your back on Jesus?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Quote kevin
I'm curious to know what happens to unbaptized believers?" thread.


Quote c.moore

They will not be condemn, and they will come into the Kingdom of Heaven, and they will be in the lamb book of life, and they will have eternal life in heaven , "but" they might lose their crown or rewards for not being baptized and disobeying the following of Jesus baptism ritual.
It would be not so good to here jesus say i am not proud of you not being baptized, and he won`t say well done my faithful son, but you will still be a son because of God grace and mercy.

First of all, you have yet to prove your position.

Second of all, the reason I gave you the name of that thread was to show you that Freak did indeed ask God to curse me. Interestingly enough, you mentioned NOTHING about it. Did you not find it?

M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

So the question should be is those who believeth also damned?

If belief does not produce obedience, it will do that person no good. What good is belief if you don't do what Christ commanded for the remission of sins? You can believe all you want (even the demons believe), but until you have your sins forgiven through baptism, you are still alive in your sins. That's why Christ said that it is those who believe AND are baptized will be saved. You have to have your sins remissed before one can be saved. Faith alone is dead, and Matt. 25:41-46 proves this point.

Yes,the thief on the cross.

You just don't get what baptism is all about, do you? Romans 6 makes it quite clear that when we are baptized, we are baptized into Jesus's DEATH. How could the thief on the cross (even if he wasn't on the cross) be baptized into Christ's death when Christ hadn't died yet?

That's why Christ commanded men to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit AFTER His death on the cross.

The thief on the cross was saved because Jesus had the power to forgive sins on earth (Matt. 9:6), and that's exactly what He did for the thief.

After Christ died, He instituted a way for people to have their sins forgiven - baptism in His name, exactly as shown in Acts 2:38.

Kevin you asked:
Mat 28:19-20 (MKJV)
19) Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching THEM to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

According to verse 20, WHO is to observe all things, Christ or us?

quote
c.moore
But how can you teach when a person haven`t learned yet?

They would have already heard the gospel. That was the first thing Christ said to do in the verses I quoted.

Yes we are to observe the things of Christ but please keep thing in order, and in the right time period.

So if WE are to observe all things commanded by Christ, how is Christ keeping His own commandments when you admit that WE are to obey His commandments? Why would Christ tell US to observe His commandments if He was going to do them for us? Makes no sense.

Again I will say when we are saved first then God will what us to obey HIm and then Heb 5:9 comes into action but not before the person is saved unless you believe first obey, then maybe your believing will be accepted, after judgement day.

I would like you to explain how one is saved without having his/her sins remissed. That's what the purpose of baptism is (Acts 2:38), so how is one "saved" before having their sins forgiven?

 

[rene]

"Yes,the thief on the cross."

This was the last man covered by the old covenant, before Jesus had est. His new.

Rom 6:4 When we were baptized, we died and were buried with Christ. We were baptized, so that we would live a new life, as Christ was raised to life by the glory of God the Father.

Till he rose again, the covenant was not in place. He hadn't been buried. He hadn't risen from the dead.

Now, either this verse means what it says - or it is a lie. I know how I believe. Do you accept these words from within the bible as true?

"This is why we need to disciple new born christian and they need to be washed in the Word of God first so they know what to do after they have become sons and daughter in Christ Jesus."

To be a Christian means 'one is in Christ'. HOW can one be 'in Christ' - yet not be following the most basic first instructions? Also, WHERE within the bible to do find what your suggesting is what is to be done? I and others have shown scriptures to back up what we are saying. Do you have ANY that suggest that such is a biblical approach? Something found within scripture??

"Yes we are to observe the things of Christ but please keep thing in order, and in the right time period."

This is the order found within the bible:
Mar 16:15 Then he told them: Go and preach the good news to everyone in the world.
Mar 16:16 Anyone who believes me and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe me will be condemned.

Now, either the bible is true and full of truth and correct - or it isn't. If it isn't - then it's a lie.

God sets the standards. Jesus followed His standard and est. a covenant the way that follows His Father's will They are found within the bible. To be within the family of God, one is going to have to follow all that to be within the family of God. Unless your suggesting - - that we don't have to follow what is said??

 

[freelight]

baptism in God, primary........

baptism in God, primary........

Hi rene,

Spiritual regeneration and immersion in Gods Spirit generates LIFE.
You and others insistence based on a few scriptures (your quote from Mark is not in the earliest manuscript ...and I find Matt. 28:19 somewhat suspect - but besides the point.) Your logic continues to cling to this emphasis on water baptism to the point of fanaticism.....however refined.

Faith in God/Christ is the essential. Differences and opinions of how this faith is expressed or effectuated in practice are in the arena of the religionists. That is fine.

What is vital to ones salvation is the living reality/presence of God in ones life here, now. This is life eternal - knowing God and His Son. I have life now in the Spirit of Christ......and know life and peace while abiding in and minding the Spirit of God.

I am baptised in Him......immersed. He abides and dwells within me. I have forgiveness of sin in Him and LIFE eternal, now.

This is what my faith in God affords me.

This is what we rejoice in.......not the manner of how one is forgiven or remitted. Its all in Him. We look to the inner reality and experinece of abiding in God....and He in us. He is Love, right here, right Now. I am complete in Him.

This is our meditation and joy in the Holy Spirit. This is the baptism of Spirit and fire we enjoy with-in our LORD.

Lets focus on the spiritual - for it begins and ends there - what is expressed in the physical shall compliment and fulfill what has taken place within and without us.

We look to the Spirit of the Lord....who is our Life-giver - Herein is Liberty.

How much longer must this 'bone' over the requirement of water baptism for remission of sins continue? So be it - let one be water baptised as a sign and act of ones participation in Christ and regeneration. This is a wonderful compliment and act of faith one ones immersion into Christs death and resurrection. We dont focus on the physical act - ONLY on what the physical act respresents and means in relation to ones faith and identification with Christ in the process of death and rising to new Life.

The SPIRIT gives Life. All christians with sense and intelligence know this as being primary. Differences of opinion on the subject of water baptism exists among christians.....and even the manner in which baptisms are performed/validated.

Key is: Those who have the Spirit of Christ and His; those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God; He gives the Holy Spirit to all who sincerely ask for it.



Shalom,


paul

 

[Francisco]

freelight,

Is this all you have? It's no more convincing than your wierd interpretation that John 3:5 is speaking of natural birth, which I replied to and you have yet to answer. Your comments above appear to be no more scripturally based or supportable than your notion Jesus was describing natural birth to Nicodemus at John 3:5, even though Jesus tells him we are to be born again through baptism and then goes immediately to Judea with the apostles and sets up a baptism ministry.

rene is right on target, no matter how much you drone on with your nonsensical assertions which you supply no scriptural support for. Your attack on the ending of Mark useless, and your assertion that you find Matthew 28:19 'somewhat suspect' is laughable at best. Are you trying to say you are a better scholar than all those who have examined and accepted these scriptures as inspired for the last 2,000 years. That's extreme arrogance and the epitomy of stupidity. You need to stop reading scripture through the filter of your preconceived notion. You've been taught a man-made modern theology that has no basis in scripture or in apostolic tradition.

Keep up the good work rene!

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[rene]

Paul. I don't believe that I have seen any suggest that anything of what you said (from a quick glance) is wrong. What has been attempted to be pointed out is that all within the new covenant that Jesus est. are baptized. That there are none within the NT that are called believers that were not baptized. You will see many pointing out the scriptures that tell of the need of baptism by Jesus. Oh - BTW - the questions that some have about Mark 16 verses 9-20 are indeed quoted by Irenzeus and Hippolytus (2 or 3 century). Been awhile since I read up on it - but there have been recent discoveries to show that the verses are to be there.

What some seem to want to suggest is that baptism isn't important - something that one can or can't do. Considering all the verses that show otherwise - that approach is more than questionable. Even if the verses were NOT to be there - the fact that such is clearly seen as the standard held by all that were Christians - it is indeed at the least important. That it is spoken of within scripture makes it biblical, part of God's will.

But the fact is that similar is within Matt. 28. So - what point your attempting to make - not sure exactly what it is.