The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
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Kevin
New member
c.moore,
What does "by" mean in the Greek? You asked for it...
G1722
å̓í
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Pretty amazing for such a simple little word, eh?
I've already tried to show you how we are cleansed through the washing of water by the word. Look again:
Eph 5:25-26
25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it,
26) that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
When it says "that He might sanctify and cleanse it", what do you think "it" is referring to??? His church (see above).
Who is His chruch? WE ARE.
How are we cleansed? By being WATER baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)
How did all this take place? BY the WORD OF GOD.
The church (us) is cleansed by the washing of WATER (Acts 2:38), BY the word of God, which is what Peter spoke to them.
In other words, if had Peter not spoken to the Jews about the word of God, they would have never been cleansed through the washing of water, for it was BY the word of God that they were commanded to undergo this cleansing through water.
What does "by" mean in the Greek? You asked for it...
G1722
å̓í
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
Pretty amazing for such a simple little word, eh?
I've already tried to show you how we are cleansed through the washing of water by the word. Look again:
Eph 5:25-26
25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it,
26) that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
When it says "that He might sanctify and cleanse it", what do you think "it" is referring to??? His church (see above).
Who is His chruch? WE ARE.
How are we cleansed? By being WATER baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)
How did all this take place? BY the WORD OF GOD.
The church (us) is cleansed by the washing of WATER (Acts 2:38), BY the word of God, which is what Peter spoke to them.
In other words, if had Peter not spoken to the Jews about the word of God, they would have never been cleansed through the washing of water, for it was BY the word of God that they were commanded to undergo this cleansing through water.
c.moore
New member
Yes peter was speaking the Word of God which is the sword, and that`s why people believed because of the living Wordnot water baptism.
Don`t you know that the Word of God is water that cleans our mind daily and we need the word in us to clean all the years of sinful ´thinking, so this is why the water is the Word of God.
The Word of God is God talking to us,a dnthe Word of God is many things to us as well as water like God is to us.
God is also the great I AM, meaning our healer,provider,helper,protector, and what ever our need is HE IS.
So the bible is our instructions book, healing book,cleaning book, food,power for our lives, and it help quicken our spirit with the Holy Spirit.
We are also washed by the blood of Jesus but do you see that as a pool of blood that we must baptize and dive into or do we just need a drop of Jesus blood?
Do you think everytime water is mention in the bible it has to be baptism with getting wet??
now let me get back to Ephesians 5, and I just look or the reference verse , and I have this.
Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
So, the question here is do you think the washing means baptism
and regeration means baptism to generation to generations??
God Bless
frostmanj
Subscriber
C.Moore mentioned the Word of God, and it jogged my memory. Lutheran's such as I have been accused of claiming the water is the active ingrediant in the sacrement of Baptism, and that this is a clear "works" based faith, and as such unsound.
I decided to look up what Martin Luther said on the subject (From his Small Catechism)
"How can water do such great things?
Answer: It is NOT the water indeed that does them, but the WORD OF GOD which is in and with the water, and FAITH which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water, and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism , that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter third: By the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying."
Bottom Line: Any Lutheran who tells you that the sacrement of Baptism has any meaning outside of Faith and the word of God, does not know his own theology.
I decided to look up what Martin Luther said on the subject (From his Small Catechism)
"How can water do such great things?
Answer: It is NOT the water indeed that does them, but the WORD OF GOD which is in and with the water, and FAITH which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water, and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism , that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter third: By the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying."
Bottom Line: Any Lutheran who tells you that the sacrement of Baptism has any meaning outside of Faith and the word of God, does not know his own theology.
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
First, I never even hinted that the Jews believed baptism over the word (which doesn't even make sense), so please stop throwing out strawman arguements.
Secondly, I'm glad to see that you admit it was the Word of God that Peter was preaching to them. Now, considering the fact that Peter commanded baptism, would you not say that it is part of the word, considering that Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:19-20?
Would you then disagree that it was BY the hearing of the word of God that those people were water baptized? If not, why would Peter command something that was part of the word of God?
I'm well aware of what the word of God's purpose is for. And are you trying to imply that everytime that "water" is mentioned in the New Testament that it is referring to the word of God? I hope not. It's like you are trying to take the passage where Christ speaks of being the living water and apply that to every single place in the New Testament that water is mentioned, which is totally incorrect.
Yes, and the Bible is the same book that shows Christ commanding water baptism (Matt. 28:19-20).
What good is the Bible if you don't obey the word. Do not be hearers only, but doers, lest you deceive yourself (James 1:22). That includes obeying the Lord's command of baptism for the remission of sins.
The blood of Christ was shed for ALL mankind. So if you stop right there, then EVERYBODY has their sins forgiven without doing anything. But we both know that's not the case. Now, what was command for the remission of sins? It is baptism (Acts 2:38; Rom 6:1-11). There's nothing magical about the water. Baptism is the act of obedience that comes from faith in Him that allows us to have our sins forgiven by the blood of Christ. What did Peter tell the Jews to do to have their sins fogiven? Baptism.
Nope. That's the beauty of context.
I believe that Titus 3:5 speaking of baptismal regeneration. You just keep burying yourself in a hole. Observe:
Tit 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Let's look at the greek for "washing" and "regeneration" to see what is being spoken of here:
First "washing":
G3067
λουτρόν
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism: - washing.
This is referring to a bath and/or washing, and yes, baptism. A perfect example is when the Bible speaks of Paul being told to arise and be baptized WASHING away your sins... (Acts 22:16).
Now "regeneration":
G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.
Spiritual rebirth.
So God saved us through the washing (bath,baptism) of regeneration (sprirtual rebirth), and by the renewing of the Holy Spirit.
Sound familar? It should:
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water (which is what we WASH with) and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 6:4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life. (regeneration - reborn - walking in the NEWNESS of life)
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
All of these speak of people having their sins forgiven by baptismal regeneration.
So in answer to your question:
The Greek is quite clear about the meaning of "washing" and "regeneration", and we see this (baptismal regeneration) practiced time and time again in the New Testament in the conversion of sinners. Not ONE time do we see record of the gopel preached and then telling the sinners to say some kind of sinner's prayer for salvation. That's a man-made pervsion that has NO scriptual support whatsoever.
First, I never even hinted that the Jews believed baptism over the word (which doesn't even make sense), so please stop throwing out strawman arguements.
Secondly, I'm glad to see that you admit it was the Word of God that Peter was preaching to them. Now, considering the fact that Peter commanded baptism, would you not say that it is part of the word, considering that Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:19-20?
Would you then disagree that it was BY the hearing of the word of God that those people were water baptized? If not, why would Peter command something that was part of the word of God?
I'm well aware of what the word of God's purpose is for. And are you trying to imply that everytime that "water" is mentioned in the New Testament that it is referring to the word of God? I hope not. It's like you are trying to take the passage where Christ speaks of being the living water and apply that to every single place in the New Testament that water is mentioned, which is totally incorrect.
Yes, and the Bible is the same book that shows Christ commanding water baptism (Matt. 28:19-20).
What good is the Bible if you don't obey the word. Do not be hearers only, but doers, lest you deceive yourself (James 1:22). That includes obeying the Lord's command of baptism for the remission of sins.
The blood of Christ was shed for ALL mankind. So if you stop right there, then EVERYBODY has their sins forgiven without doing anything. But we both know that's not the case. Now, what was command for the remission of sins? It is baptism (Acts 2:38; Rom 6:1-11). There's nothing magical about the water. Baptism is the act of obedience that comes from faith in Him that allows us to have our sins forgiven by the blood of Christ. What did Peter tell the Jews to do to have their sins fogiven? Baptism.
Nope. That's the beauty of context.
I believe that Titus 3:5 speaking of baptismal regeneration. You just keep burying yourself in a hole. Observe:
Tit 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Let's look at the greek for "washing" and "regeneration" to see what is being spoken of here:
First "washing":
G3067
λουτρόν
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism: - washing.
This is referring to a bath and/or washing, and yes, baptism. A perfect example is when the Bible speaks of Paul being told to arise and be baptized WASHING away your sins... (Acts 22:16).
Now "regeneration":
G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.
Spiritual rebirth.
So God saved us through the washing (bath,baptism) of regeneration (sprirtual rebirth), and by the renewing of the Holy Spirit.
Sound familar? It should:
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water (which is what we WASH with) and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 6:4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life. (regeneration - reborn - walking in the NEWNESS of life)
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
All of these speak of people having their sins forgiven by baptismal regeneration.
So in answer to your question:
The Greek is quite clear about the meaning of "washing" and "regeneration", and we see this (baptismal regeneration) practiced time and time again in the New Testament in the conversion of sinners. Not ONE time do we see record of the gopel preached and then telling the sinners to say some kind of sinner's prayer for salvation. That's a man-made pervsion that has NO scriptual support whatsoever.
Freak
New member
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus
Shaun
New member
Sidestepping into conversation:
It is interesting to note, however, that in the earliest churches, only those who had been baptized could attend communion. Sometimes, those who had not been baptized could attend the readings, sermons and prayers, but were ushered away during communion--which was the highest act of worship at the time.
However, believers were still considered believers of Christ prior to baptism. Many believers were baptized almost synonymously with conversion, as described in Acts. However, as the church became increasingly Gentile throughout the 2nd and 3rd centuries, the process of instruction, trial and preparation called "catechumenate" came into effect. Baptisms were usually given only on Easter Sunday, and the people to be baptized usually fasted on Friday and Saturday before. They were then baptized early Sunday morning, naked and gender-segregated, and by full immersion. After being immersed in the waters, they were given white robes and water to drink, signifying their new life and cleansing. They were then anointed, emphasizing the fact that all brought into the body of the church by baptism were part of the royal priesthood (unlike what some Catholic churches claim), and given milk and honey to sybolize the new Promised Land. They then proceeded to take communion for the first time.
It is interesting to note, however, that in the earliest churches, only those who had been baptized could attend communion. Sometimes, those who had not been baptized could attend the readings, sermons and prayers, but were ushered away during communion--which was the highest act of worship at the time.
However, believers were still considered believers of Christ prior to baptism. Many believers were baptized almost synonymously with conversion, as described in Acts. However, as the church became increasingly Gentile throughout the 2nd and 3rd centuries, the process of instruction, trial and preparation called "catechumenate" came into effect. Baptisms were usually given only on Easter Sunday, and the people to be baptized usually fasted on Friday and Saturday before. They were then baptized early Sunday morning, naked and gender-segregated, and by full immersion. After being immersed in the waters, they were given white robes and water to drink, signifying their new life and cleansing. They were then anointed, emphasizing the fact that all brought into the body of the church by baptism were part of the royal priesthood (unlike what some Catholic churches claim), and given milk and honey to sybolize the new Promised Land. They then proceeded to take communion for the first time.
Kevin
New member
Freak,
What do those verses have to do with baptism? What, do you think the baptism that Christ commanded after His death (Matt. 28:19-20) is part of the Mosaic Law????
I agree with those verses, we are justified by our faith in Christ. So? But what I want to know is can a person be justified by a faith that doesn't include obedience to Christ's commandments in light of 1 John 2: 3-4?
1 John 2:3-4 (NKJ)
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
What do those verses have to do with baptism? What, do you think the baptism that Christ commanded after His death (Matt. 28:19-20) is part of the Mosaic Law????
I agree with those verses, we are justified by our faith in Christ. So? But what I want to know is can a person be justified by a faith that doesn't include obedience to Christ's commandments in light of 1 John 2: 3-4?
1 John 2:3-4 (NKJ)
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Kevin
New member
Freak,
It depends on what perspective your trying to use. Did Christ fulfill all righteousness that the Father willed, that we may have eternal life? Yes. (Notice the direct answer)
If you're trying to imply that Christ has somehow kept His own commandments so that we don't... that's completely ludicrous:
1John 2:3-4 (MKJV)
3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if WE keep His commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
It's quite obvious that WE are to keep His commandments. So, for the 1,444,502,389th time, Can one be a Christian without keeping Christ's commandments? YES or NO. YES or NO. YES or NO.
Your arguments are easy to answer, and I have answered them directly. Why is it that you cannot do the same, Freak? You told me to answer you yes or no on another thread, AND I DID SO. What's your problem with doing the same?
It depends on what perspective your trying to use. Did Christ fulfill all righteousness that the Father willed, that we may have eternal life? Yes. (Notice the direct answer)
If you're trying to imply that Christ has somehow kept His own commandments so that we don't... that's completely ludicrous:
1John 2:3-4 (MKJV)
3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if WE keep His commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
It's quite obvious that WE are to keep His commandments. So, for the 1,444,502,389th time, Can one be a Christian without keeping Christ's commandments? YES or NO. YES or NO. YES or NO.
Your arguments are easy to answer, and I have answered them directly. Why is it that you cannot do the same, Freak? You told me to answer you yes or no on another thread, AND I DID SO. What's your problem with doing the same?
Freak
New member
The Biblical perspective:
... he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
If we trust Christ we are placed in His righteousness. In Him we fulfill all the obligations/commandments. What is difficult to understand, Kevin?
Kevin
New member
Freak,
How can we be placed in His righteousness without obedience to His commandments? If a man does not keep His commandments, they don't have the truth as clearly spoken in 1John 2:3-4. A person who does not have the truth will NOT be placed into His righteousness. If a man "trusts" in Christ for salvation, but doesn not keep His commandments, his trust is in vain, because he doesn't know Christ.
Can we get into Him without obeying His commandments? Are you saying that once you are "saved" that Christ keeps his own commandments, even though WE are told to do so?
Why you can't bring yourself to answer a simple yes or no question, even though I did so when you asked. :down: Are you so blinded that you don't realize how bad your lack of directly answering my questions is killing your position? You are so lucky we aren't debating in front of a live audience.
And it's not like I'm the only one to notice your lack of answers. Are you really that blind?
How can we be placed in His righteousness without obedience to His commandments? If a man does not keep His commandments, they don't have the truth as clearly spoken in 1John 2:3-4. A person who does not have the truth will NOT be placed into His righteousness. If a man "trusts" in Christ for salvation, but doesn not keep His commandments, his trust is in vain, because he doesn't know Christ.
Can we get into Him without obeying His commandments? Are you saying that once you are "saved" that Christ keeps his own commandments, even though WE are told to do so?
Why you can't bring yourself to answer a simple yes or no question, even though I did so when you asked. :down: Are you so blinded that you don't realize how bad your lack of directly answering my questions is killing your position? You are so lucky we aren't debating in front of a live audience.
And it's not like I'm the only one to notice your lack of answers. Are you really that blind?
Freak
New member
Fairly simple. By faith.
Let's take a glance at a few Scriptures that prove my point.
This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
We are credited righteousness through belief "in Him."
Let's move on...
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
How are we credited righteousness? Through faith.
See above.
I have held debates all across the world. I'm not afriad of little old Kevin.