The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[rene]

"Just another thought, Jesus said,
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."
Matt 5:30 (NKJV)
Would it be appropiate for me to say I'm going to, "follow the example of Jesus and His words" and cut off my hand??

My reply: And with those words, you have shown that you haven't read not really studied any of the surruonding verses.

 

[PastorZ77]

He will judge all men according to their works, whether they are good or evil

Naturally this judgment of our works will not be related to salvation right? Because works have nothing to do with our salvation?

 

[rene]

Shaun wrote: We must also realize that they whom we think are not saved might actually be saved.

My reply: AGREE! Mankind can get off into all sorts of thoughts that have nothing to do with scripture. Why - a simple look at some discussion area is proof of that.

Shaun wrote: My true opinion? I really think baptism should be something that we focus on after we get them to believe in Jesus Christ. It's hard enough just getting there - why worry about something that they'll do anyway if they believe and have faith in Him? Shoving it down their throat before they've even repented is a quick turnoff.

My reply: Understood. When I look within the NT, I see people that didn't know about the Lord, come to know of Him. The finally came to a point of understand, realized their sin - and the need to be forgiven, the need for relationship with God thru Jesus. They accept/confess Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They then are baptized.

Something that I have wondered about in all the above is where does salvation personally come into it. When they understood? When they accepted? Baptism? Frankly, the bible doesn't make the point 100% clear - or even if it possibly is even different for different people. What is clear is that they all followed those steps to come into relationship with Him.

Like I wrote before - what really bothers me most is to see how some will discount and attempt to make as if one of those steps is nothing - when the fact is unless one has all of them - they are not called a follower of Jesus without all of them being followed.

Seeing negative comments as are so clearly seen within this thread by some - couldn't go unchallenged. Not if one is earnestly seeking to follow Jesus.

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by rene
geralduk wrote: So then we should look to CHRIST and see what HE DID then go and do likewise. But soem have BAPTISM the be all and end all of everything.

My reply: Speaking ONLY for myself and what I have found, such is not the case. What I have seen is that there are many that would

a) suggest that it isn't needed (which approach goes totally against what you yourself wrote)

b) say that such is not needed 'today'

C) say that the words that Jesus stated don't mean what they mean - or - that since they were said under the 'old covenant' that it isn't valid in the 'new covenant'

Such comments need to be addressed from a biblical perspective.

All of the above is saying that CHRISTIANS should NOT be baptised IN ONE WAY or another.
This realy was covered in my post more in the affirmation and biblicly.

This post has over 250 posts to it more than any other.
Which is what \i was refering to.
Both by Christians who do not seem to yunderstand the PRINCIPLES of why we should be baptised .
and by the" 'CURCUMCISION PARTY" of whom Paul spoke of and are still a thorn in the flesh to the work of God.

If we would walk before the Lord and be PERFECT in it we should be BAPTISED in WATER even as He was.
For we "should walk in the LIGHT as He is in the light...."
and even as His BODY was immersed in water IF WE THEN LAY THE CLAIM we are His and therefore a PART of that BODY should we then not be also BAPTISED in COMFORMITY to HIS righousness?and the "LAW OF CHRIST"?
The answer is clearly YES.

 

[rene]

"Naturally this judgment of our works will not be related to salvation right? Because works have nothing to do with our salvation?"

My reply: Faith without works is dead. If a faith is dead - is it rooted within the one that brings life and salvation? I see the point of your comment - but when doing study within scripture - the first thing that comes to my mind is that faith has to be rooted into the source of life. That faith and works goes hand in hand. There is cause and effect from having certain things. In this case - having faith but with no works is a dead faith.

Jesus brings life. Faith in Him brings about life in all things within a life and will have evidence of it working. Faith breeds works (the many examples within the bible how one's faith was counted as righteousness because of how they reflected that faith in what they did an example). It is a result of faith.

Simple example - to convict someone of something, there has to be evidence. Compare this to these scriptures:

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith and works go togeather. To have one without the other doesn't reflect the teachings found within the bible.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by rene
Jesus brings life.

Then leave it at that. Water gets you wet.

 

[JustAChristian]

What You Don't Understand Can Hurt You.

What You Don't Understand Can Hurt You.

Originally posted by Freak
Then leave it at that. Water gets you wet.

Freak,
Don't you believe that what we don't know about water baptism will hurt us spiritually? My post today deals with the subject in order to see if water baptism is essential for salvation. I hope you will give close attention to the lesson.

We see water baptism first mentioned in the work of John the Baptist. He was sent by God to manifest Jesus to Israel. The Bible says, “And I knew Him not, but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore I come baptizing with water” (Jn 1:31). We see that John’s baptism was for the remission of sins (Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3). One might observe, “Why was Jesus baptized since he had no sins?” Jesus answers that question saying”…for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness” (Mt. 3:15). It was the right thing at that time for Jesus to do, and thus he allowed John to baptize him.

Baptism has always been for the remission of sins or as Ananias told Saul “…Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the Lord” (Acts 22:16). It is in order to be saved (Mk 16:16). It has never been suspended. It is what places us into Christ . If you believe you are saved before you are baptized, then you believe you can be saved outside of Christ Galatians 3:27 teaches we are baptized into Christ. Don't you believe that? I know it is impossible to be saved outside of Christ. I know baptism places me into the spiritual body of Christ. If you believe your are saved before baptism, then you believe you can be saved in your sins. As I have often mentioned before, baptism is the medium whereby sins are washed away. The Bible make that all too plain (Acts 22:16). It is not the water that is saving, but baptism. It is in baptism that one contacts the blood of Christ spiritually (Rom 6:3-5). Jesus shed his blood for our sins, and we are cleansed by his blood. But, baptism is the spiritual point of that cleansing. It is therefore necessary that one contact the cleansing blood of Christ for salvation (Rev 1:5; 1 Jn 5:6).

Do you know that baptism saves us? I know, at your current state, you don't believe it. However, 1 Peter 3:20,21 teaches “…baptism doth also now save us.” How can you overlook that? Look at all the illustrations of salvation in Acts. Anytime faith and repentance is mentioned in connection with being saved, baptism always is included because it is always stated or implied. As I said, some passages mention only believe, others only repentance or confession; does this mean we don’t have to repent if the scripture only mentions believe? Or not be immersed if not specifically mentioned? Of course not! Scripture takes a person from where he is in his heart at that place he needs to be in understanding. A person who has not heard of Christ would first have to hear, or be taught, then believe what he was taught. After belief, he would have to repent of his sins and make the same confession the Eunuch made after believing: that “Jesus Christ is the Son of God” (Acts 8:37). Only then is he a fit subject to be baptized.

If you continue to take the stand that we are saved as soon as we believe then you have to throw away the scriptures that tell us we need to have repentance, confession, and baptism. James teaches we are not justified by faith only, “Even the devil believes and trembles” (James 2:17-20). Does this mean the Devil is saved? Of course not.

In the New Testament, every time a person sought to be saved he never took nourishment nor slept until he was baptized (Acts 16:33). They knew how important baptism was unto their salvation. They knew it took baptism to complete their obedience to God’s plan for redemption. The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

The Eunuch knew he was not saved before he was baptized (Acts 8:26-39). The pool of water in the desert place whould have had no significant meaning to him. However, when seeing that body of water, he inquired as to what could hinder his baptism. He didn't want to go another turn of the wheel until he got an answer. On learning he needed only to believe in Christ and confess that belief he did so, and both he and Philip the evangelist went into the water and he was baptized. He then went on his way rejoicing, because after his baptism, he had something to rejoice about. Can you rejoice today? Are you any different in you sins than this man? No, all of us have sins that need to be washed away. That will happen in the watery grave of immersion by the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ for all that will believe and obey.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[rene]

JustAChristian, I am beginning to wonder about how many that are really being negative in replies and not really discussing are being convicted from within by the Holy Spirit about their not being baptized while suggesting that they are Christians and presenting themselves as 'mature' in the faith.

 

[Shaun]

Originally posted by rene
JustAChristian, I am beginning to wonder about how many that are really being negative in replies and not really discussing are being convicted from within by the Holy Spirit about their not being baptized while suggesting that they are Christians and presenting themselves as 'mature' in the faith.

A dangerous ad hominem remark. Be careful about what you assume, rene. I'm actually more inclined to assume that they have been baptized, but don't believe it's necessary for salvation.

 

[rene]

Shaun wrote: A dangerous ad hominem remark. Be careful about what you assume, rene. I'm actually more inclined to assume that they have been baptized, but don't believe it's necessary for salvation.


My reply: Not really. Considering some of the really nasty and un'Christian replies that fill this thread - I think an honest question. Not addressed to those that just have honest questions - directed to the ones that seem intent on snide and childish name calling. Such doesn't reflect a mature walk with God at the very least.

 

[Freak]

Re: What You Don't Understand Can Hurt You.

Re: What You Don't Understand Can Hurt You.

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Do you know that baptism saves us?

No! Jesus saves us. That is why I call you are heretic, because you boast about water.

...at your current state, you don't believe it.

That is correct because I believe Jesus saves.

 

[JustAChristian]

There must be a love of the truth...

There must be a love of the truth...

Originally posted by rene
JustAChristian, I am beginning to wonder about how many that are really being negative in replies and not really discussing are being convicted from within by the Holy Spirit about their not being baptized while suggesting that they are Christians and presenting themselves as 'mature' in the faith.

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved”(2 Thessalonians 2:8-10)

rene,
The secret of a successful attainment of salvation comes from first knowing the truth and then loving the truth. There are a lot in this thread that know what the Bible says but have not yielded themselves to the truth. They do not love the truth because it goes against what they have first been taught. Many people hate to be found wrong in anything, especially religion. Be as it may, they will not be saved until they yield to the truth stemming from a love of the truth. Paul continues by saying:

“...and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie...” (2 Thess 2:11).

Those that do not want to believe the truth on baptism, in spite of the overwhelming evidence in favor of baptism for the remission of sins, will be lead into perdition for their descending nature. God will assist them to be lost. There must be love in the heart before there can be salivation of the soul.

JustAChristian

 

[Shaun]

Note how easily this can apply both ways

Fellow Christians who believe in Grace,
The secret of a successful attainment of salvation comes from first knowing the truth and then loving the truth. There are a lot in this thread that know what the Bible says but have not yielded themselves to the truth. They do not love the truth because it goes against what they have first been taught. Many people hate to be found wrong in anything, especially religion. Be as it may, even though they are saved, they will continue making prideful remarks until they yield to the truth stemming from a love of the truth. Paul continues by saying:

“...and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie...” (2 Thess 2:11).

Those that do not want to believe the truth on grace, in spite of the overwhelming evidence in favor of the cross on Calvary being the ultimate sacrifice for the remission of sins, will lead themselves into deception and pride for their descending nature. God will assist them to be lost. There must be love in the heart before there can be salivation of the soul.

 

[Kevin]

Shaun,

Originally posted by Kevin
So you believe we are automatically baptized with the HS upon believing the word of God?
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Ephesians 1:13-14
13In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ah yes... but don't you know true belief produces obedience? The belief spoken of here is the same kind of belief that the Jews in Acts 2 had when they were preached the gospel. Their belief in the gospel led them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, and they receieved the Holy Spirit (Acst. 2:38).

Look at what Paul said about belief in Acts 19: 1-5. He asked some Ephesian disciples if they received the Holy Spirit when they "believed". They said that they had not heard of the Holy Spirit. What did Paul do at that point, Shaun? Upon hearing that Paul asked them "Into what then were you baptized?" If merely believing is all that's required, why didn't Paul ask "Whom were you preached about?" or something like that? Why do you suppose he asked about into what they were baptized in? Because belief that does not produce obedience to the gospel is NOT enough. Is that true belief only and no obedience true belief in the eyes of God? No. James 2 covers that to the point. Paul himself realized the importance of keeping God's commandments in 1 Cor. 7:19 by saying "but keeping the commandments of God is what matters". Belief on it's own is not enough.

Anyway, they responded that they were baptized into John's baptism. Upon hearing this, Paul preached Christ to them. Were they then baptized with the Holy Spirit when they believed? No, or Paul wouldn't have asked into what were they baptized into. Now after they heard the gospel, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul, who said there is ONE faith and ONE baptism baptized them in the name of the Lord.

I emphisize that they were baptized in the name of the Lord only because it is done with water:

Acts 10:47-48
47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Now, why would Paul, who says there's ONE baptism have people water baptized in the name of the Lord if one is supposedly automatically baptized by the Sprit when they believe the gospel? This the the same Paul whom you quoted your verse. If one is autmatically Spirit baptized upon hearing the word, why did Paul have them baptized in the name of the Lord? Would he allow 2 baptism when he himself said there is ONE?

Then there Acts 8:5-16. The people heard the gospel and believed, but were NOT Spirit baptized upon believing? Why is that? Because there was only ONE baptism commanded by Christ (Matt. 28:19-20), and it wasn't Spirit baptism.

Let me ask you this... do you think the baptism that Paul spoke of in Romans 6 is the same baptism that Christ commanded in Matt. 28:19-20?
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Ephesians 4:4-6
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (said by John)

Mark 10:39
They said to Him, "We are able." So Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;

Okay, so wait. All of the believers Jesus were talking to had already been baptized by water. Why would they need to be baptized again if Jesus meant water? Because he was talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Pretty straightforward, huh?

It's obvious that you need to read Matthew 28:19-20 again... slower. First of all, Christ was speaking to His 11 disciples on a mountain (Matt. 28:16). Now that we know who Christ was talking to, what did Christ say to them? See for yourself:

Matthew 28:19,20
19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Who is "them" in the underlined "baptizing THEM"? Was it the 11 disciples? No. Jesus clearly says here to go out into the world making new disciples (people who have NOT been converted yet) and baptize THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

That's exactly what happened at Pentecost. People were baptized in the name of Christ (the same baptism that happend after Paul preached in Acts 19:5) for the remission of sins, just as commanded by Him. And we know this is done with water (Acts 10: 47-48).

 

[Shaun]

Kevin,
Both you and I know the only real way to have a productive, meaningful debate on baptism is by each doing 6 months of study to prepare for a 2-day meeting/debate in person about the topic.

And I doubt if even that would be productive. We can both endlessly quote Scripture that supports our decisions, but neither will listen on either matter, because both are convinced they have the truth. Therefore it would benefit me more to throw straws at the wind than continue in this time-consuming banter.

I am bowing out of this discussion because I feel it is unnecessary for me to continue. I am not going to turn Catholic (for obvious reasons) and am not going to join a denomination that preaches baptism over the grace given to us at the cross. Whether or not you believe the same beliefs as me is irrelevant, and if you consider this exit as a sign of "weakness" or because I "don't have a good enough case to argue," then I would strongly suggest taking a weekend off to reevaluate your pride.

Goodbye and God bless.

 

[CoCrucified]

I have decided it's time for me to move on to other threads, since the same things are repeated over and over again by the "baptismal regenerationist," and they appear to never have prayerfully read the linked articles and ask God for guidance. I think this thread fits the underlined portion of the verse below. I will continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will guide all of us into truth.

I am greatly saddened to see that some people are placing their faith in their own work of baptism, rather than in what Jesus Christ did on the cross. I just hope your consciences aren't so seared that you cannot ask God to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."
2 Tim 2:15-16 (KJV)

 

[PastorZ77]

How about a battle royal thingy?

 

[Shaun]

I will be out of town until July. The timing is horrid.

 

[Kevin]

CoCrucified,

So you believe we are automatically baptized with the HS upon believing the word of God?
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Yes, upon accepting the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Ok, then why weren't the Samaritans in Acts 8:5-16 automatically Spririt baptized upon beleiving the word of God?:

5) And Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed Christ to them.
6) And the people with one accord gave heed to those things which Philip spoke, hearing and seeing the many miracles which he did.
7) For out of those having unclean spirits, many came out, crying with loud voice. And many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed.
8) And there was great joy in that city.
9) But a certain man called Simon had long been conjuring in the city, and amazing the nation of Samaria, claiming himself to be some great one.
10) All gave heed to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, This one is the great power of God.
11) And they were paying attention to him, because for a long time he had amazed them with conjuring.
12) But when they believed Philip preaching the gospel, the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13) Then Simon himself believed also, and being baptized, he continued with Philip. And seeing miracles and mighty works happening, he was amazed.
14) And the apostles in Jerusalem hearing that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent Peter and John to them;
15) who when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16) For as yet He had not fallen on any of them, they were baptized only in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Common theory, but where does the Bible support it?
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"The key to understanding the baptism by the Spirit is that it is a positional truth. It is not an experience; it has nothing to do with feelings. The baptism is an instantaneous work comprised of many simultaneous acts of the sovereign God. The following comments deal with but five of these acts which concern us here."

"Observing what transpired at Pentecost we see that the first act was regeneration, or new birth, by the Spirit (Titus 3:5; John 3:6)."

Well well well.... thank you ---> "Observing what transpired at Pentecost we see that the first act was regeneration, or new birth, by the Spirit."

You do realize that the baptism perfomed at Pentecost was baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38), which is done with water. Acts 10:47:48 clearly shows that this is done with water:

47) Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

This is not to say that the Holy Spirit was not involved in this event. He was certainly responsible for conversion of those sinners. Peter spoke words inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it was those words, by the Holy Spirit, that those sinners came to obey the gospel and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, just as commanded by Peter, who was commanded to do so in Matt 28:19-20. So by one Spirit through the word of God being preached by Peter they obeyed the gospel, being baptized into Christ. Without the Holy Spirit, this wouldn't have been possible, for He is Who revealed the word. That's why Paul said in 1 Cor. 12:13 that we baptized into Christ by one Spirit... because without the teachings of the Holy Spirit, revealing the gospel to the sinners of the world, they wouldn't be led by the Spirit into baptism in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sins!

"Upon believing, each was sealed with the indwelling Spirit. This has a threefold significance: a finished transaction; a mark of ownership; a guarantee of safe delivery [security]. "In whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest [down payment] of our inheritance, unto the [final] redemption of God's own possession" (Ephesians 1:13, 14, ASV)."

Well yes, because those who believe going to hear the same gospel preached to the Jews - Jesus Christ and Him crucified, being raised on the 3rd day whom God made both Lord and Christ. I can assure you that Paul doesn't simply mean a belief that is dead upon itself, but rather a belief that produces obedience to the gospel, which most certainly includes being baptized for the remission of sins. Would somebody be sealed who has not had their sins forgiven? No. Paul himself had people baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 19:5), which, again, is done with water (Acts 10:47-48). Paul, who says that there is only ONE baptism, practiced water baptism in the name of the Lord.

"Hence each believer from Pentecost to this day has been, by the Holy Spirit, regenerated, indwelt, baptized into Christ, sealed and anointed--

Yup... again, if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit inspiring the words of Peter to those Jews, who preached the saving gospel of Christ, they never would have been water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins. They wouldn't have been reborn, having their sins forgiven, putting the old man of sin away, and arising dead to sin and alive to God (Romans 6:1-11).

The baptism in Acts 2:38 clearly states that it's for the forgiveness of sins. Paul speaks of baptism in Romans 6, coming to the SAME conclusion, that it frees the believer from sins (verses 6-7). Paul performed baptism in the name of the Lord (Acts 19:5), the same as the baptism in the name of the Lord spoken of in Acts 2:38, which is done with water (Acts 10: 47-48). Paul would not speak of one baptism and practice another one. No... Paul proclaimed that there is ONE baptism (Eph. 4:5), he wrote about it in Romans 6 and had it observed in Acts 19:5 - water baptism in the name of the Lord.

So.... I'm still waiting to see a verse from the Bible that supports your theory that the baptism with water pictures what has already happened to the believer upon conversion.

I simply cannot reconcile how a work done by us could save us.

It the Grace of God that saves us through faith in His Son (Eph. 2:8). Our works do not save us... we cannot earn what we do not deserve in the first place. We get water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins not because we are trying to earn our way into Heaven, but because of the gospel produces faith (Rom. 10:17), and faith, true faith, produces obedience. How can we say we have faith in Christ if we don't do what He commands for the remission of sins? Is such "faith" recognized by God? No way! The Bible clearly states HOW we know whether or not we know Christ:

1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

True faith in God produces obedience. Christ is the author of eternal savation to those who "obey" Him (Heb. 5:9). There are many examples in Acts of people being baptized after Christ was preached to them, why? To "earn" salvation? No, because if they have faith that Christ is the Son of God, then they are going to obey His commandment to be baptized, because they have faith in Him and what HE SAYS TO FOR SALVATION, otherwise, how can they say they have faith in Him? If Christ says to be baptized for the remission of sins, then it should be done, not because you "should" or because you are "earning" anything, but because you have faith in your Lord and love Him (those who love Him keeps His commandments - John 14:15), knowing that you can't possibly make it into heaven without having your sins forgiven (which is what baptism is FOR), being reborn into Christ!

Please forgive me if I've missed an earlier posting of yours, but can you please tell me why you do not consider water baptism to be "works?"

Baptism is a work, but so is belief (John 6: 28-29). So is repentance. Technically, a work is anything that man must do. Man must believe. A work. Man must repent. A work. And yes, man must be baptized for the remission of sins. A work. We don't do those things to "earn" anything, no, we do it because true faith produces obedience, and that is the faith that saves! James chapter 2 spells that out. Works work together to perfect faith. Just as the body without the soul is dead, so is faith without works (James 2: 26). Faith without obedience is a dead faith, pure and simple.

Let me ask you this... do you think the baptism that Paul spoke of in Romans 6 is the same baptism that Christ commanded in Matt. 28:19-20?

Matthew 28:19,20
19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
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No, because the baptism of the Spirit is a work of the Holy Spirit, thus the Holy Spirit can only perform it. The baptism performed by the Apostles was a physical act of immersing believers as an act of identification with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and a witness to others.

Show me in the Bible where water baptism is an identification with Spirit baptism and it's a whitness to others.

Who was the Etheopian eunuch witnessing to when he was baptized in Acts 8:38? Where was the crowd?

I believe Romans 6 is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I've already shown you that baptism in the name of the Lord is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) and that it is done with water (Acts 10:47-48). Paul speaks of baptism in Romans 6 as freeing the person of sins (verses 6,7). Coincidental paralell? I think not. And again, Paul, who wrote Romans 6 had people baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 19:5), which I have shown is done with water. Paul practiced the "ONE" baptism that he preached - water baptism in the name of the Lord as commanded by Christ.

I believe Matt. 28:19-20 is commanding the Apostles to perform water baptism.

Agreed. Don't you find it a bit odd that we can find where we are commanded to be water baptized, yet we find NO commandment for Spirit baptism...

Acts 8: 5-16 proves my point. Those people, after being preached Christ, were NOT automatically Spirit baptized upon believing the gospel (see verses 12 and 16), which is what you claim happens. Notice, however, that they WERE baptized in the name of the Lord (again verses 12 and 16), just as Christ commanded. ONE baptism, not two.

 

[Kevin]

Shaun,

Kevin,
Both you and I know the only real way to have a productive, meaningful debate on baptism is by each doing 6 months of study to prepare for a 2-day meeting/debate in person about the topic.

And I doubt if even that would be productive. We can both endlessly quote Scripture that supports our decisions, but neither will listen on either matter, because both are convinced they have the truth. Therefore it would benefit me more to throw straws at the wind than continue in this time-consuming banter.

I am bowing out of this discussion because I feel it is unnecessary for me to continue. I am not going to turn Catholic (for obvious reasons) and am not going to join a denomination that preaches baptism over the grace given to us at the cross. Whether or not you believe the same beliefs as me is irrelevant, and if you consider this exit as a sign of "weakness" or because I "don't have a good enough case to argue," then I would strongly suggest taking a weekend off to reevaluate your pride.

Goodbye and God bless.

First of all, I'm not Catholic or part of any denomination. I'm a member of the chuch of Christ... so don't worry, I'm certainly not trying to convert you to Catholicism.

Regarding grace and baptism, you should read my latest post to CoCrucified. I put some good effort to show that we are not earning our salvation by works. I'm fully aware that we are saved by the Grace of God through faith in His Son. If you care to read it, that would be great. If not, ok.

God bless you Shaun.