The Hebrew Epistles: Where Do They Fit?

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
You are not in my league. Watch, as I expose you for the biblical illiterate that you are, a fraud, poser, humnist, just spamming, "In my opinion....I think..."


Acts 20:35 KJV I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Show us the chapter, verse, where the Lord Jesus ever said:

It is more blessed to give than to receive



Per your "as what Jesus says himself in the New Testament" "argument."


Fraud. Poser. Oprah-"In my opinion...."



Let's take a good hard look at this John.

For it is you who are imposing Dispensation opinion on scripture.


Who wrote Acts?

Can we agree it was Luke?

Now we see in Acts 20 that at the time Paul spoke that Luke was with him.

13 And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed , minding himself to go afoot .

14 And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in , and came to Mitylene.


With me so far?

Now who was Luke?

Can you say one of those who was with Jesus and the twelve from the beginning?

From Gospel of Luke:

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,


Now granted Luke did not write in his Gospel that Jesus said those exact words.

That does not mean that he did not hear Jesus say it.

Or that when he was preaching in person that he didn't relate that Jesus said it.

Chances are Paul heard it from Luke or another disciple that had been with Jesus.

Paul hung out with more than one who had been with Jesus, take Barnabas for instance.

This is another reason why Nick's idea that Paul didn't write Hebrews is just another Dispy opinion.


Hebrews 2
3 How shall we escape , if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


So for Paul to be quoting them fellas would mean he believed em, dontcha think?


Acts 20:35 KJV I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I believe the scriptures show that there was a mixed bag (as some say) at Corinth and all not necessarily became members of the one Body of Christ. Some did and some didn't.

Then why did Paul tell those whom he addressed the following?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Jn.12:13).​

If only some of those at the church at Corinth became members of the Body and some didn't then why would Paul say "for by one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one Body"?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I believe the scriptures show that there was a mixed bag (as some say) at Corinth and all not necessarily became members of the one Body of Christ. Some did and some didn't.

Don't you ever get tired of making things up over and over again?

Do you even keep track of the things you make up?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Here is what Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote about that:

Here is what godrulz said.

You underestimate the caliber of scholars that God has raised up to keep the sheep from falling for false teaching and ignorance on important subjects. Why should I trust you as an expert on things, and reject those with proven track records and godly character/insights? Eph. 4:11-13 vs internet wannabees with no training or accountability…Any credible biblical theology of John and Paul or any credible commentary or NT scholar or average believer has no problem with I Jn. vs Paul
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
We are not told to rightly divide our Bibles, but to rightly divide the word of truth which is the gospel of our salvation. It is not found in the Hebrew epistles.

The above fits the millions of timelines and MAD charts we have all seen.

I am not incorrect to point out the emphasis on studying Scripture, etc. for truth. The Spirit of Truth does lead us into truth, but you have to explain why so many sincere, godly believers have such a myriad of divisive, doctrinal views despite the same indwelling Holy Spirit, same sincerity, same prayerful study of Word, etc. (hint: noetic effects of sin; bad teaching; subjective, fleshly impressions mistaken for the Spirit, etc.

You are undermining His finished work (Hebrews shows the superiority of New/reality in Christ over Old/shadows and types) by suggesting there is a temporary 'Jewish/circ' gospel before Paul. Keeping the Law after the Lamb of God sheds His blood is nonsense and futile, even for Jewish Christians. The dividing wall is down because of the cross and there is nothing needed for Jew/Gentile to be one in Christ based on the one true NT gospel.

:plain:
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Then why did Paul tell those whom he addressed the following?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Jn.12:13).​

If only some of those at the church at Corinth became members of the Body and some didn't then why would Paul say "for by one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one Body"?
Just as Paul wrote that we are all baptized into one body in 1 Corinthians 12 does not mean that he did not address some that weren't as we can see there were some at Corinth who believed in vain (1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV) as they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:12-17 KJV). So to say that all in Corinth were in the one Body is ignorant. We cannot apply 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV to them, now can we?

Go study, Jerry.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Just as Paul wrote that we are all baptized into one body in 1 Corinthians 12 does not mean that he did not address some that weren't as we can see there were some at Corinth who believed in vain (1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV) as they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:12-17 KJV). So to say that all in Corinth were in the one Body is ignorant. We cannot apply 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV to them, now can we?

Go study, Jerry.

More foolishness.

Your "kingdom" and "body" churches theory is once again proved wrong.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
So to say that all in Corinth were in the one Body is ignorant.

(1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Please stop dividing Christ!

Was Paul crucified for you?

Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
Let's take a good hard look at this John.

For it is you who are imposing Dispensation opinion on scripture.


Who wrote Acts?

Can we agree it was Luke?

Now we see in Acts 20 that at the time Paul spoke that Luke was with him.

13 And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed , minding himself to go afoot .

14 And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in , and came to Mitylene.


With me so far?

Now who was Luke?

Can you say one of those who was with Jesus and the twelve from the beginning?

From Gospel of Luke:

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,


Now granted Luke did not write in his Gospel that Jesus said those exact words.

That does not mean that he did not hear Jesus say it.

Or that when he was preaching in person that he didn't relate that Jesus said it.

Chances are Paul heard it from Luke or another disciple that had been with Jesus.

Paul hung out with more than one who had been with Jesus, take Barnabas for instance.

This is another reason why Nick's idea that Paul didn't write Hebrews is just another Dispy opinion.


Hebrews 2
3 How shall we escape , if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


So for Paul to be quoting them fellas would mean he believed em, dontcha think?


Acts 20:35 KJV I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
I understand your defensiveness and alarm. Many of my posts draw from our long tradition of historical scholarship and contextual research--most of which we have not heard from the pulpit.

I tend to be more focused on raw data, evidence and facts uncovered by normal historical methodology. This does not mean that I discount or ignore theological, faith-based verses in the Bible. It means that I try to draw a difference between faith and facts.

Jesus was a preacher in first-century Palestine: that is a statement of FACT.

Jesus was the Messiah, Son of God, etc. Those are statements of FAITH.

For myself, I identify as a Christian because I see in the man Jesus the definitive disclosure of God on earth.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Just as Paul wrote that we are all baptized into one body in 1 Corinthians 12 does not mean that he did not address some that weren't as we can see there were some at Corinth who believed in vain (1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV) as they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:12-17 KJV).

If there were some people in the church at Corinth who were not baptized into the Body of Christ then it would make no sense for Paul to write:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Do you not know what the word "all" means? Evidently you must think that it means only "some." You are incapable of carrying on an intelligent discussion about the meaning of this verse.

So to say that all in Corinth were in the one Body is ignorant. We cannot apply 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV to them, now can we?

You are the ignorant one because you either do not know the meaning of the word "all" or you refuse to believe what Paul said at 1 Corinthians 12:13. Again, he said that "all" those who he was addressing were in the Body. That verse is right in front of you but you are so blinded by the false teaching of those in the Neo-MAD community that you cannot even see that Paul said that "all" of them are baptized into one Body!

Not only that, but you think that 1 Corinthians contains doctrine for the kingdom church even though Paul tells them that "all" of them are baptized into the Body of Christ.

Are you now teaching that the kingdom church was made up of those belonging to the Body of Christ?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

Since you're so confused, maybe a modern translation will help you:

(1 Cor 1:2 NIV) To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It's perfectly okay to describe the activity of the inspired authors and followers of oral tradition and textual preservation in theological phrases such as "excess to the heavenly sphere..."

I spoke of those who received the book of Hebrews as having "access" to the heavenly sphere, and not "excess to the heavenly sphere."

I don't understand how the rest of the theology you offer is pertinent to an evaluation and history of the Book of Hebrews.

The subject of this thread is a discussion as to whether or not the doctrine found in the Hebrew epistles (or General epistles) is doctrine for those in the Body of Christ.

And the evidence which I present proves that it is for those in the Body:

Those who received Hebrews had access into the heavenly sphere, a blessing that just applies only to those in the Body of Christ:

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" (Heb.10:19-20).​

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Heb.4:16).​

It is only those who are in the Body of Christ who dwell in the very presence of God because only those in the Body have been raised up and made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved); And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" (Col.3:1).​

From this we can know that it is impossible that the book of Hebrews, which tells all "to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus," is for the future tribulation when only the high priest will have access to God. Instead, these words are speaking of the access into the heavenlies which members of the Body of Christ enjoy now. Cornelius Stam, the founder of The Berean Bible Society, wrote:

"The Holiest place of the tabernacle, still closed to Jewish believers at that time, except representatively through the High Priest once each year, reminds us of our free entrance into 'the holiest of all' in heaven itself. By grace we enter the presence of God, '. . . by the blood of Jesus . . . a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh' (Heb. 10:19,20). Think of it! The old dead way replaced by 'a new and living way,' specially consecrated to our use through the blood of Christ! This is the great Pauline doctrine of our access to God (Rom. 5:2)" [emphasis mine] (Stam, The Berean Searchlight, Volume L, Number 2).​

Of course this destroys the teaching within the Neo-MAD community that the doctrine found inn the book of Hebrews is not for those in the Body of Christ.

And not even one of those who deny that the doctrine found in the book of Hebrews is for those in the body has even attempted to address these facts.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

Are you under the impression that the words you 'bolded" somehow nullifies Paul's words that the epistle was also addressed to those in every place who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).​
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
If there were some people in the church at Corinth who were not baptized into the Body of Christ then it would make no sense for Paul to write:

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
 

Danoh

New member
First, to cut it out from among the other gospels found in the Bible, such as the one in the four gospels and Hebrews-Revelation.

Secondly, even though our gospel is found in all 13 letters of Paul, we should consider which ones were written before the mystery of the gospel was revealed.

Then why the exact same sense in 1 Corinthians 12 thru 14 as Romans 12 thru 15 and Ephesians 2 thru 4?

A simple example.

Romans 12:

1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Romans 15:

7. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.


13. Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14. And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15. Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16. That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:

1. Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

Ephesians 2:

11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 3:

1. For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 4:

1. I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2. With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

In short, this here:

1 Corinthians 12: 2. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Is this here:

Ephesians 2: 11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Both passages speak of where God had left the Gentiles off in Genesis 11, until the Mystery [singular, not plural].

In both passages, Paul is talking about prior, overall, Gentile status, in general, before the revelation of the Mystery of the one New Man.

2 Kings 17:

9. And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city.
10. And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree:
11. And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger:
12. For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

Psalm 115:

4. Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6. They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7. They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8. They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
9. O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
 
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