ECT The Gospel Proper

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john w

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From my vantage point, you’re making Paul out to be something he’s not based on God’s intervention in his conversion and his zeal. Paul is no different than the 12, he’s a messenger sent from God.


Correct-thanks for the disclaimer-from your vantage point-not from the details of the book, as Paul is not one of the 12, despite your assertion that he was merely an errand apostle, a "two bit flunky." Survey:


We are commanded to follow Paul today, not Peter, for following Paul is following the Lord Jesus Christ. The Body of Christ's prophet, or leader, is the apostle Paul, "...the apostle of the Gentiles...."(Romans 11:13 KJV). Just as Israel followed Moses, believers in this dispensation are commanded by the risen, ascended, and glorified Lord Jesus Christ to follow Paul: 1 Corinthians 4:16 KJV,1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV; Philippians 3:17 KJV, Philippians 4:9 KJV ; 1 Thessalonians 1:6 KJV; 2 Thessalonians 3:9 KJV; 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV. His writings are scripture, the "is given by inspiration" scripture(1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV; Titus 1:3 KJV; 2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV), and are the Lord Jesus Christ's words and commands in this dispensation: Romans 15:18 KJV; 1 Corinthians 14:37 KJV; 2 Corinthians 13:3 KJV; 1 Thessalonians 4:2 KJV; 1 Timothy 6:3 KJV . The Lord Jesus Christ appointed Paul as :

-our apostle(not Peter, nor "the 12"): Romans 11:13 KJV; 2 Corinthians 11:5 KJV; Galatians 2:8 KJV; 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV; 2 Timothy 1:11 KJV
-our pattern; 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV
-the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles in this dispensation: Romans 15:16 KJV; Ephesians 3:7-8 KJV; Colossians 1:23-25 KJV
-a preacher: 1 Timothy 2:7 2 Timothy 1:11; Titus 1:3;
- a teacher of the Gentiles: 1 Corinthians 4:17 KJV; 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV; 2 Timothy 1:11 KJV
- a prophet: 1 Corinthians 14:37 KJV
-the masterbuilder, having laid the foundation of the Body of Christ: 1 Corinthians 3:10
-a steward of the mysteries of God: 1 Corinthians 4:1 KJV
-the administrator, "steward", for the present dispensation of the grace of God: Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV
-authoritative: Titus 2:15 KJV; 2 Corinthians 13:10 KJV

Paul calls The LORD God to witness more often than any other biblical writer, and no other biblical writer spoke with an oath more than Paul: Romans 9:1 KJV; 2 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 2 Corinthians 11:10 KJV, 2 Corinthians 11:31 KJV; Galatians 1:20 KJV; Philippians 1:8 KJV; 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV

Despite what you have been taught by "tradition", the Lord Jesus Christ's "marching orders" for today are given through Paul(the mystery program), not Peter(the prophetic program). And the reason for the apostasy following the prophetic program, and knowing "Christ after the flesh"(2 Cor. 5:16 KJV-his earthly ministry, presented as King of the Jews), instead of the mystery program, and knowing him as "the head of the body", the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven as revealed to the apostle Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles"(Romans 11:13 KJV).

Paul alone was chosen to be God's spokesman for this new dispensation. The other 12 Apostles knew nothing about this dispensation; they knew only what Paul taught them ,and that is why Paul said he went by revelation- by direct command of the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ of heaven, to Jerusalem to confer with the 12 Apostles, and to teach them what gospel he preached- Gal. 2:2 KJV. If the Jerusalem apostles had been preaching the same gospel, that would had not have been not only unnecessary, but insane! And thus, we have TBN and the rest of the apostates preaching the gospel of the kingdom.





Why Paul? I could ask the same question about Barnabas.

You do realize,that there were other apostles, "post Paul," including Barnabas, do you not?


Turbosixx: Yea....And Paul was no different from them or the 12,you see, as it all says the same thing, you see, well, uh, urr....
 

Danoh

New member
I keep asking because the replies I get don't make sense with what I read in scripture...

You've jumped all over the bible and forced pieces together that don't belong together to come up with...

I am honestly testing what I believe to be truth. I'm not going to believe just anything. I test what I'm told to see if it holds up compared to scripture.

Problem is, it is you who are unwittingly jumping all over the bible and forcing pieces together that don't belong together to come up with what you assert.

You take this passage - one of your favorite mantras...

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Repeatedly, you demonstrate that you are reading what YOU think the salvation being referred to INTO its' words, is.

Why?

Because His Words in just that passage alone are based on the Law and the Prophets, Luke 24: 46, 47, Acts 3: 23, 24 - and that is a whole lot of ground you have yet to demonstrate both much familiarity with, nor much actual interest in being proven off on, for your own good.

Result?

You have ended up at a confused understanding that has one both saved by faith, but expecting to go through the wrath to come, completely unaware that is exactly what you are asserting.

Acts 17: 11, 12.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Long ago, I had a really tough time trying to cram Eph 2:8-9 into my head alongside Mark 16:16. Several times I asked people I knew about this conflict. How do we reconcile it, I'd ask? I was told there's nothing to reconcile but always got some doctrinal fog machine in response. It always went something like this:


Them: We're forgiven all sins by grace through faith without works, but we are disobedient if we don't get water baptized to give a testimony of having given our lives to Jesus and making Him Lord of our lives.

Me: By 'disobedient' do you mean 'sinning'?

Them: Technically, yes. To refuse to follow Jesus' example is a sin and denies His Lordship over our lives.

Me: So being water baptized amounts to a work that avoids that sin?

Them: NO. I already told you, forgiveness of sins is absolutely not by works.

Me: Yes, and I agree. But let's say someone has believed the gospel and yet, for whatever reason, neglects or refuses water baptism. Is he saved?

Them: Well...I guess maybe he is...if he REALLY TRULY REALLY HONESTLY REALLY SINCERELY REALLY BELIEVED IT. But in that case he's going to WANT to get water baptized! Because Jesus did it!

Me: But what if he still never gets water baptized?

Them: Then he's still disobedient. Refusing to obey Jesus in baptism is indeed a sin, there's no two ways about it.

Me: So will that sin of disobedience remain unforgiven until he submits to water baptism?

Them: Yes, because only then he will have fully obeyed Jesus as Lord.

Me: And not before?

Them: Not before.

Me: So what you're saying is, submission to water baptism either avoids or forgives the sin of disobedience to Christ, which makes it a work, because that sin can be avoided or forgiven not by believing something but only by DOING something...by being water baptized?

Them: All right, I've had enough of this. Are you sure you're saved? Go away and examine yourself to make sure you're in the faith.



Easily 98% of the people on TOL could be "them" in this scenario.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Long ago, I had a really tough time trying to cram Eph 2:8-9 into my head alongside Mark 16:16. Several times I asked people I knew about this conflict. How do we reconcile it, I'd ask? I was told there's nothing to reconcile but always got some doctrinal fog machine in response. It always went something like this:


Them: We're forgiven all sins by grace through faith without works, but we are disobedient if we don't get water baptized to give a testimony of having given our lives to Jesus and making Him Lord of our lives.

Me: By 'disobedient' do you mean 'sinning'?

Them: Technically, yes. To refuse to follow Jesus' example is a sin and denies His Lordship over our lives.

Me: So being water baptized amounts to a work that avoids that sin?

Them: NO. I already told you, forgiveness of sins is absolutely not by works.

Me: Yes, and I agree. But let's say someone has believed the gospel and yet, for whatever reason, neglects or refuses water baptism. Is he saved?

Them: Well...I guess maybe he is...if he REALLY TRULY REALLY HONESTLY REALLY SINCERELY REALLY BELIEVED IT. But in that case he's going to WANT to get water baptized! Because Jesus did it!

Me: But what if he still never gets water baptized?

Them: Then he's still disobedient. Refusing to obey Jesus in baptism is indeed a sin, there's no two ways about it.

Me: So will that sin of disobedience remain unforgiven until he submits to water baptism?

Them: Yes, because only then he will have fully obeyed Jesus as Lord.

Me: And not before?

Them: Not before.

Me: So what you're saying is, submission to water baptism either avoids or forgives the sin of disobedience to Christ, which makes it a work, because that sin can be avoided or forgiven not by believing something but only by DOING something...by being water baptized?

Them: All right, I've had enough of this. Are you sure you're saved? Go away and examine yourself to make sure you're in the faith.



Easily 98% of the people on TOL could be "them" in this scenario.

Intra-dispensational principle:

James 1:8 KJV A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

1 Kings 18:21 KJV... How long halt ye between two opinions?...
 

turbosixx

New member
you been denominationally trained to read and understand scripture.
For the record, I'm not denominationally trained. Never have been part of a denomination and don't agree with the idea of there being different types of Christians. There is only one name by which we are saved and it's not hyphenated.

I do appreciate you pointing things out to me.
 

turbosixx

New member
Because His Words in just that passage alone are based on the Law and the Prophets, Luke 24: 46, 47, Acts 3: 23, 24

What exactly do you mean by this?

It is my understanding that the law and prophets help us to understand that Jesus is the Christ.
Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

That they speak of things that would take place.
Acts 26:22 To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:
 

Rosenritter

New member
Long ago, I had a really tough time trying to cram Eph 2:8-9 into my head alongside Mark 16:16. Several times I asked people I knew about this conflict. How do we reconcile it, I'd ask? I was told there's nothing to reconcile but always got some doctrinal fog machine in response. It always went something like this:


Them: We're forgiven all sins by grace through faith without works, but we are disobedient if we don't get water baptized to give a testimony of having given our lives to Jesus and making Him Lord of our lives.

Me: By 'disobedient' do you mean 'sinning'?

Them: Technically, yes. To refuse to follow Jesus' example is a sin and denies His Lordship over our lives.

Me: So being water baptized amounts to a work that avoids that sin?

Them: NO. I already told you, forgiveness of sins is absolutely not by works.

Me: Yes, and I agree. But let's say someone has believed the gospel and yet, for whatever reason, neglects or refuses water baptism. Is he saved?

Them: Well...I guess maybe he is...if he REALLY TRULY REALLY HONESTLY REALLY SINCERELY REALLY BELIEVED IT. But in that case he's going to WANT to get water baptized! Because Jesus did it!

Me: But what if he still never gets water baptized?

Them: Then he's still disobedient. Refusing to obey Jesus in baptism is indeed a sin, there's no two ways about it.

Me: So will that sin of disobedience remain unforgiven until he submits to water baptism?

Them: Yes, because only then he will have fully obeyed Jesus as Lord.

Me: And not before?

Them: Not before.

Me: So what you're saying is, submission to water baptism either avoids or forgives the sin of disobedience to Christ, which makes it a work, because that sin can be avoided or forgiven not by believing something but only by DOING something...by being water baptized?

Them: All right, I've had enough of this. Are you sure you're saved? Go away and examine yourself to 1make sure you're in the faith.



Easily 98% of the people on TOL could be "them" in this scenario.

John 13:6-9 KJV
(6) Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
(7) Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
(8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
(9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

Did Peter have part with Jesus only if his feet were clean? Or because he was willing to submit to Christ with his whole heart?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
For the record, I'm not denominationally trained. Never have been part of a denomination and don't agree with the idea of there being different types of Christians. There is only one name by which we are saved and it's not hyphenated.

I do appreciate you pointing things out to me.

Yet someone preached the gospel to you and led you to be water baptized, right?
 

musterion

Well-known member
John 13:6-9 KJV
(6) Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
(7) Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
(8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
(9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

Did Peter have part with Jesus only if his feet were clean? Or because he was willing to submit to Christ with his whole heart?

They weren't talking to or about you there.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Here's a relevant question for you, Rosie.

What must an ignorant, never seen a Bible sinner know about how God saves souls from Hell, in order to be saved?
 

Rosenritter

New member
That's my point. What they were talking about is irrelevant to you. It has nothing to do with the way anybody can be saved today so your question is irrelevant.

It is irrelevant whether anyone else was told to submit to his feet being washed. The question is entirely relevant because it addresses the principle of submission to Christ.

John 13:6-9 KJV
(6) Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
(7) Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
(8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
(9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

Did Peter have part with Jesus only if his feet were clean? Or because he was willing to submit to Christ with his whole heart?

Are you asserting that submission to the instruction of God (regardless of specific circumstance) is not a principle that God maintains? In Stam's book, he did seem to think that there were such things as principles that apply regardless of specific commandments or dispensation. Do you disagree?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Here's a relevant question for you, Rosie.

What must an ignorant, never seen a Bible sinner know about how God saves souls from Hell, in order to be saved?

As much as I like this particular tangent, I must insist that you at least observe civilized protocol and answer the previous question first please.
 
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