The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

[shima]

>>I think fG7 was right on when he predicted that many atheists "will be so ashamed of being ignorant" - at least that's what they will proclaim.<<

The problem is PROOF. If you could PROVE the existence of your God, then all this business with eternal damnation would not be nessecary. However, since there is no such thing, atheists don't believe in God anymore than they believe in Thor, Zeus or the ToothFaery.

>>And that's what makes it all the more sad: most of the atheists here are intelligent people, they just bully their own conscience into silence when it comes to God.>>

Actually, we listen very closely to our conscience. And our conscience says "There is no God" and therefore we are atheists.

Rather, it is Christians who refure to listen to their conscience. Every conscience will say "genocide is evil" yet they refuse to question the actions of their god even when their conscience tells them that these actions are evil.

 

[RogerB]

I know there's a big difference between someone who says they are a [insert name of religion here] and someone who walks the talk, but for the sake of argument, let's assume these statistics from the CIA World Factbook for the United States are correct:

Protestant 56%
Roman Catholic 28%
Jewish 2%
other 4%
none 10%

Or even these statistics from whatthenationthinks.com:

atheist 20%
jesus 60%
allah 3%
buddha 1 %
other 16%

Explain why you think that 90% of the people in the United States (or 60% of the people on whatthenationthinks.com, or the 2 billion Christinas in the world) are wrong? Do you know any intelligent or successful Christians? Do you think they simply possess a good business sense but are totally delusional when it comes to God?

 

[shima]

RogerB:
>>Explain why you think that 90% of the people in the United States (or 60% of the people on whatthenationthinks.com, or the 2 billion Christinas in the world) are wrong? <<

Why do you think that NUMBERS decide if a belief is correct or not? During the 1700's, most scientists believed that the equations written down by Newton were "correct" (which is why they called it a "law") nevertheless his equations were NOT correct.

Besides, there are still 900 million Muslims out there so please provide a reason why 900 million Muslims would be wrong while 2 billion christians would not? Also, does that mean that if Islam had 2 billion followers it would automatically be "correct"?

And ofcourse there are therefore 4 billion non-christians. Now, why would they be wrong but 2 billion christians would NOT?

>>Do you know any intelligent or successful Christians?<<

I do. I also know some stupid ones, and some smart but unsuccessfull ones.

>>Do you think they simply possess a good business sense but are totally delusional when it comes to God?<<

What has their faith got to do with how intelligent they are? I know a very smart Muslim, so do you think that HE is delusional?

The arguement from numbers has been disproven over and over again. The NUMBER of believers doesn't constitute proof that their belief is CORRECT.

 

[Aimiel]

You Forget One Small Thing: Our God IS GOD!!!

You Forget One Small Thing: Our God IS GOD!!!

Originally posted by shima The problem is PROOF. If you could PROVE the existence of your God, then all this business with eternal damnation would not be nessecary. However, since there is no such thing, atheists don't believe in God anymore than they believe in Thor, Zeus or the ToothFaery.

These 'so-called' atheists, who say, "Show me God, I'll believe," would not even believe if God Himself got down off of His Throne, subjected Himself to them, allowing them to do with Him whatever they wanted, even to the point of death; much less believe when they saw Him raised from the dead, and ascended to His Throne, once again, to rule and reign forevermore. No, they have Dr. Carl Sagan and Karl Marx and Charles Darwin, let them look to them for their Salvation; they refuse to believe in the eyewitness accounts of God, and call Him a liar. They have their gods.

Actually, we listen very closely to our conscience. And our conscience says "There is no God" and therefore we are atheists.

I believe Paul can speak to this far better than I, from the first chapter of the book of Romans:16-23

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

Rather, it is Christians who refure to listen to their conscience. Every conscience will say "genocide is evil" yet they refuse to question the actions of their god even when their conscience tells them that these actions are evil.

No, not every conscience; due to the fact that when He spoke that to the Prophet and to the King, it was necessary to do so. We (Christians who are Spirit-filled) know our 'conscience,' personally. That is to say, when we hear the voice of our conscience, which is the conviction of the Holy Spirit, communicating God's will to our conscious minds. The Salvation Message of Jesus Christ cannot be received by someone who has their conscience seared with a hot iron. They don't feel the pain of disobedience, they only know their desire, and follow it. Oh, we have questioned the actions of God, but have found Him to be Faithful and True. He is also Merciful, Loving and Holy. There is none like Him. There is none beside Him. All of the other gods are the imaginations of men, and have no voice or track record, other than being imaginary. Our God has yet to be proven wrong. He has proven Himself too many times to recount in this forum, the database would be overloaded with just His past records.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

 

[RogerB]

Calm down. I wasn't offering you PROOF. Remember, I said there is no scientific proof. I want you to comment on the mental state of the average Christian. Why do you think they choose to believe you don't?

 

[Aimiel]

Roger B.,

Roger B.,

Originally posted by RogerB Keep up the good fight, fG7. I'm learning a lot from you.

When you said that, I thought of this verse:
Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Though most people might have thought of this one:
2 Timothy 4
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Thank you. This is the only reason I post on TOL. Not because I wish to hear accolades, but so that ones who believe, might see things which they know to be true defended. Not because I believe I can persuade the ignorant of the Truth, but so that believers might see the emptyness of the defenses the ungodly try to hide behind. Their problems are obvious to the 'least' in the Kingdom of God, but their own blindness is least obvious to themselves. Blind leading blind never makes sense. Finish your race, because it is not important how fast or how far you run, only that you finish. His Presence is our Goal.

Ecclesiastes 9:11
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

It is this verse that assures me that there is no such thing as luck.

 

[shima]

>>These 'so-called' atheists, who say, "Show me God, I'll believe," would not even believe if God Himself got down off of His Throne<<

Yeah right. He needs to come down first, perhaps then I'll believe.

>>That is to say, when we hear the voice of our conscience, which is the conviction of the Holy Spirit, communicating God's will to our conscious minds.<<

I'm sorry, but your conscience is NOT the voise of God. Rather, it is that part of your personality which makes decisions about good and bad, based on your education and experiences.

>>but have found Him to be Faithful and True. He is also Merciful, Loving and Holy.<<

No, that is the problem. In the Old Testament He did things (like murdering the firstborn children of Egypt) that are NOT mercifull and not loving. Therefore, I believe that God is not a good person. Since the bible claims that God is "good" and that the bible doesn't lie, either of these things MUST be true:

1) God exists, murdered all those first born in Egypt and is therefore NOT a good god, despite the propagandistic claims of the bible.

2) God exists and didn't murdered all those children. However, that would mean that the bible is wrong on this part and therefore NOT the "unerring" word of god.

3) God doesn't exist and those deaths in the Egypt never occured.

Awnser 3 is what I believe. Which of those awnsers do you believe?

>>All of the other gods are the imaginations of men, and have no voice or track record, other than being imaginary. <<

Which is why I think that God is also imaginary. The "track record" of God is no better than that of any other god, so why would God be real while all other gods are not?

>>Our God has yet to be proven wrong.<<

Actually, your God has yet to be proven right. Its not up to me to disprove god, its up to God to PROVE God.

 

[RogerB]

Its not up to me to disprove god, its up to God to PROVE God.

For the last time (ha!) THERE IS NO PROOF, so the 2nd half of your statement is null and void. That leaves it all up to YOU and YOU alone.

 

[Aimiel]

Where is God? I Don't see God!!!

Where is God? I Don't see God!!!

Originally posted by shima Yeah right. He needs to come down first, perhaps then I'll believe.

He did. His Name is Jesus. He wants to meet you, but you have to call upon His Name.

No, that is the problem. In the Old Testament He did things (like murdering the firstborn children of Egypt) that are NOT mercifull and not loving. Therefore, I believe that God is not a good person.

This curse, which Pharoh was about to commit upon Israel, was the 'last straw,' in the Judgement of Egypt. The deaths of the firstborn of Egypt occurred because of the words which came out of Pharoh's mouth.

Since the bible claims that God is "good" and that the bible doesn't lie, either of these things MUST be true:

1) God exists, murdered all those first born in Egypt and is therefore NOT a good god, despite the propagandistic claims of the bible.

2) God exists and didn't murdered all those children. However, that would mean that the bible is wrong on this part and therefore NOT the "unerring" word of god.

3) God doesn't exist and those deaths in the Egypt never occured.

Awnser 3 is what I believe. Which of those awnsers do you believe?

Number four (none of the above).

Which is why I think that God is also imaginary. The "track record" of God is no better than that of any other god, so why would God be real while all other gods are not?

Actually, your God has yet to be proven right. Its not up to me to disprove god, its up to God to PROVE God.

No, He has proven Himself over and over. If you don't believe in Him and believe that He is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him, you can NEVER come to Him; much less find proofs of His Love for you.


Hebrews 11
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[shima]

>>He did. His Name is Jesus. He wants to meet you, but you have to call upon His Name.<<

Jezus was a man. No doubt he was a wise man, but still a man. The myth that he was god was created by Peter. The real Jezus as known by his disciples was a man. King of the Jews, but still a man.

>>This curse, which Pharoh was about to commit upon Israel, was the 'last straw,' in the Judgement of Egypt. The deaths of the firstborn of Egypt occurred because of the words which came out of Pharoh's mouth. <<

So why did God kill those children? Were THEY guilty because of what the Pharaoh did? Do you always judge and condemn a nation based on the actions of its leaders? If so, then you must be all for the execution of Iraqi's and Afghans because of the actions of Osama and Saddam. If you think that you cannot kill innocent people because of the actions of their leaders, then how can you condone God doing so? A double standard that is (one for humans, another for God) and that is called "hypocrisy".

>>Number four (none of the above). <<

That one isn't there. Choose 1, 2 or 3.

>>No, He has proven Himself over and over.If you don't believe in Him and believe that He is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him, you can NEVER come to Him; much less find proofs of His Love for you.<<

Something that requires faith before it can be proven is NOT proof. There is NO proof that God exists, like there is no proof that Allah, Shiva, Thor and Zeus exist. Or like there is no proof that Santa Clause, Toothfaeries and Trolls exist. They are all "figments of the imagination." and that includes God.

 

[Aimiel]

SHIMA, May the Lord Bless you with His Presence

SHIMA, May the Lord Bless you with His Presence

Originally posted by shima "The deaths of the firstborn of Egypt occurred because of the words which came out of Pharoh's mouth."

So why did God kill those children?

WRONG. See above answer. The words of Pharoh did the killing.

Were THEY guilty because of what the Pharaoh did?

NO, but Pharoh had been warned, many times.

Do you always judge and condemn a nation based on the actions of its leaders?

Many wars could be avoided if we could overlook the tyrants who mis-treat their own people or their neighbors; but evil triumphs when good men do nothing. I believe that war is necessary, as long as the devil roams this earth.

If so, then you must be all for the execution of Iraqi's and Afghans because of the actions of Osama and Saddam.

You are now making very foolish accusations, and have never been in the military. If I were sent to the fighting, I would fire. I am not a warmonger, but when the leader of a country refuses to abide by teh laws of this planet and the rules imposed upon him by his superiors, then he must be punished. If we were after the Iraqi's or the Afghan's, we would have 'carpet-bombed' their cities.

Something that requires faith before it can be proven is NOT proof.

That might be your opinion... but I don't have faith that it is. Prove to me that is your opinion. I refuse to believe it. Sorry, I choose to assume that you know better than that.

 

[Zakath]

Re: SHIMA, May the Lord Bless you with His Presence

Re: SHIMA, May the Lord Bless you with His Presence

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
WRONG. See above answer. The words of Pharoh did the killing.

Not true, according to your Bible, YHWH butchered the firstborn himself after causing Pharaoh to refuse to release the Jews.

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments." Ex. 7:3-4

YHWH promises Moses that there will be trouble and that YHWH himself will be the cause of it.

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Yet will I bring one plague more upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence: when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether...

And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts....

And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt. And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land...

For I (YHWH) will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD...

And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

Excerpts from Exodus chapters 10ff

 

[RogerB]

I will admit that my knowledge of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, is not what is should be, but, I don't need the Bible to know that whatever happened was the will of God.

God created everything. He made the rules. He gave man free will. He's in charge.

What I find more interesting is that Zak will discuss the acts of God as if He really exists because he thinks those acts are uncharacteristic of God.

Zak likes to have his cake and eat it too. :nono:

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by RogerB
I will admit that my knowledge of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, is not what is should be, but, I don't need the Bible to know that whatever happened was the will of God.

Oh really?

Perhaps you'd like to qualify that statement a bit...

What I find more interesting is that Zak will discuss the acts of God as if He really exists because he thinks those acts are uncharacteristic of God.

No, I never claimed that the atrocities I describe were "uncharacterstic". On the contrary, they demonstrate the very nature of the biblical deity.

When discussing religions, one needs to discuss things in the framework that is familiar to those with whom he or she is discussing. When talking to Jews I use the Tanakh or their other writings, when Christians, I use the Bible or their other writings. With Muslims, its the Qur'an, etc.

I have enough trouble getting any five of you Christians to agree on anything even when we're discussing the identical passage from your own Bible. "Heaven forbid" that I confuse you any further by using other sources.

 

[Aimiel]

I don't believe that the Lord has killed anyone; for He said: "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you." -- Exodus 12:23

Now, the last time I looked the definition of 'destroyer' has to be a reference to the devil, and not to God. Yes, He allowed this great plague to strike Egypt, and showed a difference between Israelites and Egyptians by not allowing the destroyer into the homes of those with lamb's blood on their doorpost and lintel; but He did not commit the act of killing. In that all things are under His Command, the Lord is Lord of all, even of the Egyptians; however, their actions often demand that He lift His Hands, and allow their actions to bring the very consequences they have called for. If He were not merciful, the entire population of Egypt would have died. If He were not Holy, there might never have been any such thing as a Plan of Salvation through the Blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus, The Messiah.

 

[shima]

>>WRONG. See above answer. The words of Pharoh did the killing.<<

It was God who pulled the trigger. The Pharaoh didn't do anything to hurt these kids.

>>NO, but Pharoh had been warned, many times.<<

So why take it out on the CHILDREN? Why not on the Pharaoh himself? He was the guilty party, so if anyone should have been punished, it should have been him.

>>Many wars could be avoided if we could overlook the tyrants who mis-treat their own people or their neighbors; but evil triumphs when good men do nothing.<<

Yes, but God killed innocent beings in order to defeat the Pharaoh. We have rules regarding war: we take steps to ensure that civilians are not harmed. Sure, we cannot guarantee their safety, but nevertheless we try. We do NOT deliberately target civilians in order to win a war. Deliberately targeting civilians is called "terrorism".

>>I am not a warmonger, but when the leader of a country refuses to abide by teh laws of this planet and the rules imposed upon him by his superiors, then he must be punished.<<

Precisely my point. The LEADER should be punished. But ofcourse in Egypt the children were NOT in charge, the Pharaoh was in charge. Yet, when it came to punishment, God choose innocent children, NOT the Pharaoh to suffer the consequences of the Pharaoh's actions.

>>That might be your opinion... but I don't have faith that it is. Prove to me that is your opinion. <<

It is my opinion.

>>I refuse to believe it. Sorry, I choose to assume that you know better than that.<<

Well, I do know better than people who claim that FAITH equals PROOF. It doens't. No amount of faith or wishfull thinking is going to change the way gravity works. If faith were proof, then the world would function as we believed it functions. Since it clearly doesn't, FAITH is not proof.

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by shima It was God who pulled the trigger. The Pharaoh didn't do anything to hurt these kids.

Demonstrating his contempt of God and putting his vanity above the safety and comfort of his people, time and time again, Pharoh's guilt is obvious.

So why take it out on the CHILDREN? Why not on the Pharaoh himself? He was the guilty party, so if anyone should have been punished, it should have been him.

Perhaps the people needed to learn a lesson about their leader. Perhaps God wanted to demonstrate His mercy differently than we might ever have imagined to do. Maybe this deliverance, this Exodus, was the most important story for many people who will read about it for ages to come. Maybe God, who is Faithful and True, did nothing wrong, even though you might judge that He did. Maybe the Almighty is perfect, even though you judge that He is not. He is, after all, the Lord; not your servant.

Well, I do know better than people who claim that FAITH equals PROOF. It doens't. No amount of faith or wishfull thinking is going to change the way gravity works.

I know better than that too:

"But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary. And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea." -- Matthew 14:24, 25

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -- Acts 1:9-11

If faith were proof, then the world would function as we believed it functions. Since it clearly doesn't, FAITH is not proof.

This is the end of the thing: seeing is NOT believing. The people who had your attitude saw the blind (from birth) receive their sight (which had never happened before), saw the dead raised, and they no more believed in Jesus than you do. Believing is seeing. The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[RogerB]

.

Perhaps you'd like to qualify that statement a bit...

Ummm....no.

I have enough trouble getting any five of you Christians to agree on anything

Christians are people. Try getting 3 people to agree on what time the sun rises in their town

No, I never claimed that the atrocities I describe were "uncharacterstic".

If you're going to twist the truth, at least do it consistently. You are trying to show that our loving, passionate, comforting, healing (these are the characteristics I was referring to) God is a butcher or troublemaker.

Why would someone who doesn't even believe in God attribute characteristics to Him, good or bad?

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
I don't believe that the Lord has killed anyone...

Then you obviously do not read your Bible very literally...

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up." I Sam. 2:6-7

"I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. " Gen. 6:17

Of course if you liked figurative readings, you could always read Revelation where that fellow "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" (hmmm, where have we heard that title before????) kills all the armies that follow the beast and the false prophet...

It appears that the deity you worship is not the same one found in the Bible...

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by RogerB
Ummm....no.

So you believe that "whatever happened" in the OT "was the will of God"? Now that's interesting. Is that your final answer???

Are you certain you don't want to qualify that statement before I trot out say a dozen examples of things describe in the OT and ask you to explain how each was "the will of God"?

Christians are people. Try getting 3 people to agree on what time the sun rises in their town

But the time of the sunrise realtively unimportant. Your theology allegedly describes how to determine whether or not I'm going to heaven or burning in hell for eternity...

If you're going to twist the truth, at least do it consistently. You are trying to show that our loving, passionate, comforting, healing (these are the characteristics I was referring to) God is a butcher or troublemaker.

Hey, don't get exited. I didn't write your Bible. You religionists did! I merely quote it from time to time to show how doubleminded you are when it comes to accepting your deity the way he is actually portraye in your own religious writings.

Why would someone who doesn't even believe in God attribute characteristics to Him, good or bad?

As I said before, to carry on a conversation with someon like you, who alleges to believe in him... :doh: