The Easter Debate ~ Lion and DDW on Eschatology (HOF thread)

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Knight: I hear that there are medications available (even in Colorado) for those delusions you are suffering with.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Dear Knight: I hear that there are medications available (even in Colorado) for those delusions you are suffering with.

Its time for me to get in on the "theologian" speak.... and the "big-word-fest" that has been plaguing TOL lately, therefore I will refer to your above statement as an SDA. That being a........... Subjective Delusional Assertion.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Actually my assertion that you are delusional was quite objective.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Actually my assertion that you are delusional was quite objective.

OK... but was THAT statement subjective or objective?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

What statement?? Are you imagining things again?? I hear those meds kick in real fast. If you get your scrip now, perhaps you will be able to think coherently for the rest of the debate (be sure to read the high altitude directions).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren (be sure to read the high altitude directions).

Ah ha! That's why the preterist arguments don't make any sense! I haven't been using the high altitude directions!!!! Why didn't I think of that!!!????

OK... add one extra tablespoon of flour and pre-heat the oven an additional 25 degrees.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Lion:

I hope to post a response this weekend. I have been away from the house for most of the week as I had let you know in PM. And yesterday I got some disturbing job news.....

 

[Lion]

Waiting with baited breath. I will be gone for the weekend, my son has hockey games in Vail and Aspen.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Lion
Waiting with baited breath. I will be gone for the weekend, my son has hockey games in Vail and Aspen.

Lion... I have been meaning to say something about your breath. :shocked:

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Let’s throw the kitty in the mermaid pool…..

Let’s throw the kitty in the mermaid pool…..

Dear Lion:

Okay, let’s roll…. The first subject you tackled was the identity of the “he” in the following verse:

Daniel 9:27 – Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

You responded:

Okay, the he (notice the small “h”, and don’t go crazy on me - I know the original doesn’t have capitals), is the antichrist.

Since you know that the capitalization or lack thereof has NOTHING to do with the original text, why in the world would you even mention it? But its time for you to wipe your paws for you have now stepped in it big time, and you’re tracking it across the floor. We both agree that this verse speaks of the beginning of the 70th week to the middle. However, while I believe that the 70th week began with the baptism of Christ, thus placing His crucifixion in the midst of the 70th week bringing a judicial end to sacrifices and offerings (Hebrews 10:10-14), you believe that the 70th week started immediately after the crucifixion and was halted about one year later. Take a deep breath Lion… really?? Well, then, please do educate us on exactly who the first century antichrist was that confirmed a covenant with the many for one week immediately after the crucifixion. Ouch!

And now for the next episode of As the Question Begs……

After I pointed out to you that Scripture nowhere else EVER refers to the Great Tribulation as lasting seven years (and there is VERY good reason for that – i.e. the symbolism of a broken seven indicating judgment), you simply assumed what you must prove and said,

The great Tribulation is the same one as spoken of in Daniel’s 490 year prophesy, and the same one as spoken of in Revelation. And it isn’t three and one half years as you proclaim, it is seven years, just as the prophesy states.

Thank you for the demonstration in circularity, but now where exactly does Revelation say that the Great Tribulation is seven years? It doesn’t. Everywhere a period of time for the entire event is mentioned in Revelation it is 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2, 12:6, 13:5). So once again, without illegitimately using the disputed passage to prove the disputed passage, you cannot prove that the Great Tribulation is seven years, and there is tremendous proof to the contrary.

It becomes much harsher for Israel in the last three and a half years, once the temple and the city are destroyed, and that is why such a big deal is made out of the
time, times, and half a time.

Really? And what verse says that? None. The verses in question simply say that 3.5 years is the length of the time of “Jacob’s Trouble” which you keep insisting began immediately after the crucifixion, but apparently now are backpedaling, since by your own admission, it could not have began until 3.5 years AFTER the crucifixion since only the latter half of the 70th week can properly be called that time. It is becoming painfully obvious that we are entering into uncharted waters for you as you keep tripping over your own tail.

But does this 3.5 years of “Jacob’s Trouble” really begin after the city and (some alleged future) Temple are destroyed? Well let’s see. In Revelation 11:5, the Temple and city are specifically said to be still standing during the “42 months.” Oops for you. Revelation 18:19 which describes the fall of the city happens at the END of the terrors after which (taking your presuppositions as true) Christ returns in Revelation 19 and destroys those who came up against her. Oops Number Two. Also, in comparing the synoptics in the Olivet Discourse, specifically Luke 20-24 with Matthew 24:15-22 we see that the Tribulation happens while the city and Temple are still standing and its destruction ushers in the “coming” of Christ mentioned in those passages, which Matthew takes great pains to tell us happens immediately after the destruction. Thus, there is no greater period of Tribulation AFTER the destruction, the Tribulation is the events leadings TO the destruction Matthew 24:21. Three Oops, and you’re out.

**Drat those five letter words!

I have shown numerous times, but I do not mind rubbing it in, that the text of Daniel 9:26 specifically says that the Messiah is cut off AFTER the 69 weeks. Apparently you have some difficulty understanding the word AFTER so here are some synonyms – following,subsequent in time, past, and later.[/I] The Messiah is not cut off in the 69th week, He is cut off AFTER and the text then goes on to say exactly WHEN AFTER….In the midst of the 70th week which is patently obvious in the parallelism which I will once again demonstrate….

Verse 9:26 –And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Verse 9:27 – Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.

The red colored text is parallel as is the blue. This places the timing of the cutting off in the midst of the 70th week. There is no controversy at all that the blue texts are parallels, but in that admission, it becomes obvious that the red is as well.

And contrary to your assertion that I did not deal with the use of the word “determined” – this is a repeat of a point made several posts ago - Notice in the concluding words of verse 26 and 27 in parallel, that it is only the determination of the desolations that is said to take placed in the 70th week itself. The effecting of those desolations could take place any time thereafter.

**The Grammar Hammer

But this brings up another devastating reason why the pronoun “HE” of 9:27 cannot be the antichrist - simple rules of grammar. A pronoun will refer back to the last dominant character. Well who was that? Simple, there has only been one dominant character introduced in this whole prophecy… the Messiah! It cannot be “the people,” that is not a “he,” that is a “they.” It cannot be the “prince who is to come” for the noun “prince” is NOT the last dominant figure, it is not a dominant figure at all, but rather is the subject of a prepositional phrase! The “he” refers back to the Messiah who appears in the verse already set in Hebraic parallelism. It is only the gerrymandering insertion of a predetermined grid upon the text that could cause anyone to deny this.

**The Dating Game

After I pointed out how misplaced your reliance was upon trying
to pin down the fulfillment to exact month due to the fact that the prophesy was not in months, it was in patterns of Jubilee years, and that for every evidence you can provide of the dating of certain decrees, there is differing evidence (i.e. the dating of ancient events is an imprecise science) you in a stunning display of melodrama say:

Are you saying that the prophesy is wrong? That it is inaccurate? One of the founding prophesies proving God’s ability to bring something to pass?

And perhaps you would like to point out where I said that? I did not. I said that the prophecy certainly came to pass but using selected material (and from Bullinger of all people!) to bolster your particular position that things panned down to a specific month, when the prophesy does not even say that is misplaced. Nice drama though, it brought a tear to my eye.

**They Make Such a Cute Couple….

And as to your couplet theory, I refer you back to my last post. It sounds good if you decide to look at it through preterists filters, and ignore the actual text.

And in this comment you analyze the text where? Oh, an ex Cathedra statement from you is sufficient, when I in fact demonstrated the parallelism.

**The Missing Link….[/color=green]

As to the leaving out of Christ’s earthly ministry, I answered that as well, when I said that His appearing, (in this prophesy), is primarily concerned with His death, because that is what the dating relates to, as well as the beginning of the Tribulation, which happens to be what Daniel’s vision is all about.

The baloney-meter just went off the scale. You did not answer that for you cannot answer how Christ claimed to the Jubilee figure that was ALREADY anointed in His citation of Isaiah 61:1-2; you never adequately answered my proofs of two Messianic events in the text; you simply assumed the dating relates to His death and the beginning of the Tribulation; and funny, if the vision is so much about the Tribulation how Gabriel neglects to mention that even once in the goals stated in verse 24.

And of course all of this is supported by this verse of which you have remained silent…..

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

You are so focused on preterists details that you cannot see the forest for the trees. The entire thrust of this prophesy is about setting a date for Messiah’s death, (that is accurate and record able, just as with His birth, so that it cannot be denied), as well as bringing in the needed information about the end times.

Your question begging abilities are unparalleled. The passage speaks of two Messianic events, with the second being His death, the first being “until Messiah [the anointed one] the Prince.” My view fits in perfectly with the NT texts which present Jesus as the Anointed One well prior to His crucifixion, and claims that the “time is fulfilled” well prior to that event as well. John the Baptist was the forerunner until the public presentation of the Messiah which Jesus affirms in Matthew 11:13. Ironically, it has been noted by scholars that the dating of Christ’s baptism (Luke 3:1-3)receives unusually detailed information in the NT, which is the only reason we can date His death with any accuracy.

Ironically you state after my numerous proofs that TWO Messianic events are predicted:

Well I certainly hope it was before the crucifixion. And this does nothing to bolster your position, it only shows that the first appearance of Christ would be followed quickly by His death, the Tribulation and then the second coming.

LOL! Did you really read what you said? If you concede that the “until Messiah the Prince” refers to the first public Messianic appearance of Christ, then you have conceded it is the baptism! And funny, when it suits you, 3.5 years all of a sudden becomes “followed quickly,” yet when it doesn’t suit you, such a timeframe becomes a yawning “gap.” How art Thou Inconsistency?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Sppplllaasssh!!!

Sppplllaasssh!!!

**A Ko-desh Moment

About ko-desh. I’m sorry, I thought I explained that well enough, but I must have been mistaken.

You mean when you said…

The Hebrew word used is Ko-Desh (Strong’s #6944). I searched numerous translations and several commentaries and what I found is that this word is never once used (except by you in this one place) in denoting a person, but rather is always used to describe an item, object or building, as in; the Most Holy of places. (emphasis on “the” mine to show that you were even using the definite article the last time you addressed this point)

Hmmm. You now state:

The words ko-desh, ko-desh without the definite article, (in said placement with anoint) are never used in conjunction with a person, only with an object, a place, or a thing. That is why I made the statement about Christ never being referred to as a thing…. The correct translation of the verse is best served as; “To anoint a most holy place”.

Well no personal offense, but such a simplistic rendering of the issue of the definite article in Hebrew would make a JW proud. Surely you are aware (see An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax. Bruce Waltke and M. O'Connor, Eisenbrauns:1990), that there are multiple ways to indicate the definite status of a phrase in Hebrew besides the definite article, which in fact, is the least common way to do so?? Could that be why every nonparaphrase translation of the Bible that I consulted translates the phrase “THE most holy [with some completely adding out of thin air the word “place’]? And for the record, all the verses that I previously cited, save two, showing the use of the word “ko-desh” in reference to persons (or in one case animals) do not have the definite article either!! Thus, your point is????

And Jesus is very often referred to as “thing” (your bait and switch about neuter pronouns is irrelevant), and He in fact describes Himself as the very “thing” that you are claiming this passage is about, the Temple (John 2:20-21).

For you to take this stance would require you to state that this is the only place in the bible that uses it as such.

Untrue as demonstrated, but you have no trouble doing such things when you insist the Tribulation is seven years. Just how black is that pot anyways? Next!

**Put Down a Drop Cloth First….

Oh, and any response to that painted corner of Luke 4:19 that I brought up?

You mean when you said….

Jesus is totally acknowledging the Isaiah 61 passage and He does completely leave out the last line; the ”day of vengeance of our God.” But you miss the whole point as to why He does this. It is because He, (Jesus) is still in the 69th week of the prophesy, and the day of the vengeance of God (the beginning of the 70th week) is not yet at hand. Which completely destroys your argument of the 70th week starting at the baptism of Christ. If it was the 70th week, Jesus would have finished the last line. But He did not because that day was still in the future, awaiting His crucifixion.

Yes, here is my response. All you have simply done is once again assumed your position that the 70th week MUST be the Great Tribulation, inserted that unproven assumption into the text, and said “Ah ha!”

But let’s look at it once again. Jesus, prior to His crucifixion, was announcing Himself as the fulfillment of the Jubilee imagery of Daniel 9 and said that this Scripture is fulfilled THAT day in their hearing. You would have this taking place in the 68th week, and be completely irrelevant to the Daniel 9 prophecy which reeks of said Jubilee imagery. In so doing, you have destroyed the whole typological and polemical purpose of Jesus citing and utilizing that passage. You are being faithful to your “system” at the expense of the text. He omits the reference to the say of vengeance because that is a result of the rejection of the Jubilee He offered, and they had not yet done that. The passage completely supports my chronology.


I will be working on my Jeremiah 18 response tomorrow, and hopefully will complete it and post it then.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jeremiah was a bullfrog……

Jeremiah was a bullfrog……

Okay now onto Jeremiah 18 which Lion believes explains how God allegedly “interrupted” the Great Tribulation after beginning it for one year. I will repeat something I initially posted on this idea:

Let’s take a look at the passage from this is derived.

Jeremiah 18:7-11 – The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”

There are a lot of interesting things here.

The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.

This portion teaches that the threats to destroy and pull down and pluck up are God’s response to the evil that a nation has done. If that nation then turns from its evil, God will not bring the disaster upon it.

And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

God here speaks conversely to the truth already taught. Just as he will prosper an “evil” nation that turns from its evil, he will destroy a “good” nation” that turn from its good. In other words in this passage God is not talking about blessing an evil nation… it is presumed that when the blessing is pronounced, the nation is good, but if it turns evil, then the blessing is withdrawn.

The relevance to this discussion is apparent. At the time that Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse, He was not speaking of a “good” nation upon whom He was now going to pronounce some blessing, He was speaking of an evil nation that would soon demand that He be crucified rather than a murderer (Mark 15:11 Matthew 27:21), cried out for His blood to be upon them and upon their children (Matthew 27:25), and pledged allegiance to no king but Caesar (John 19:15). They did not repent from those ways but continued in them, thus, even under the rubric of conditionalism there is no way out. The Great Tribulation was a first century event.

And continuing on the “escape” clause in prophecy, it is also apparent that this is only valid when the reaction of the people prophesied about is not also the subject of the prophecy. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, not only did He tell Moses what to say, and what the consequences of Pharaoh’s refusal would be, He also told Moses that Pharaoh would in fact refuse. That closes any escape hatch. God has spoken the whole thing. Likewise, the rejection of Christ by the Jews (except for a Remnant, which is all that ever really existed as the people of God to begin with) was also foretold. Their rejection was certain and prophesied. I can see no way out of this fact.

Lion has turned on its end the whole judgment aspect of the Great Tribulation which Jesus described as God’s retribution for the blood of the all the righteous blood shed upon the earth:

Matthew 23:35-36 – that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

and the “days of vengeance –

Luke 21:22 – For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Jesus in describing these same events parabolically ALWAYS referred to it as a judgment event that was to happened BECAUSE OF THEIR REJECTION: Matthew 21:33-44

“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

Matthew 22:1-14 –

“The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

And very interesting is the parables that contains Boom’s signature verse:

Luke 19:11-27 – Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’ “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’ “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”

The point of all of these passages is that the rejection of the Jews was ALREADY predicted, and the consequences were clearly laid out. And the fact is that the Jews behaved exactly how predicted, and thus there is absolutely no reason for judgment to have been averted. Lion tries to ignore this very, very clear context and say that the result of all this punishment was a good thing because God would then give the Kingdom to the Jews. Lion would have us believe that if the Jews back then had repented He would have brought on them the most terrible of judgments (described by Jesus as the greatest tribulation that has ever been or shall ever be) but because they remained unrepentant, judgment was averted. That is total nonsense as all of Christ’s word were completely and contextually within the assumption that they were unrepentant. What Lion is proposing is exactly opposite to what Jeremiah 18 teaches and to what Jesus taught, i.e. that the coming conflagration was directly BECAUSE of their rejection and unrepentance. And irony of all ironies….. everything predicted did in fact happen!

Notice closely, Jesus predicted that the nation would reject Him and His rulership and described the consequences of that rejection through parables, and then ultimately in the Olivet Discourse. Lion claims that since the nation rejected Him that the Olivet Discourse was postponed and if they had repented, God would have brought His wrath down upon them. Who do we believe?

 

[Lion]

Mmmmmm....mermaid...taste like chicken.

Mmmmmm....mermaid...taste like chicken.

DD-You said;

We both agree that this verse speaks of the beginning of the 70th week to the middle. However, while I believe that the 70th week began with the baptism of Christ, thus placing His crucifixion in the midst of the 70th week bringing a judicial end to sacrifices and offerings (Hebrews 10:10-14), you believe that the 70th week started immediately after the crucifixion and was halted about one year later.

Yes let’s look at this just a little more closely, shall we? The preterists position on the Daniel 490 year prophesy isn’t really a 490 year prophesy at all is it?. It is really a 486 and 1/2 year prophesy, because that is the only way they can try and make things fit. Their theory states that the 483 years until Messiah, happened at the beginning of the 483rd year, then about 3 and 1/2 years later Jesus was crucified, bringing us up to about the 486 and 1/2 year in the prophesy. What happens for the other 3 and 1/2 years of the prophesy? Nothing really, except maybe the apostle Paul, might have been converted at around the end of that time. So just what is it that really marks the end of the prophesy? Who knows? Not the preterists that’s for sure. I guess Daniel really meant 486 and 1/2 years were determined for their city and their prople.

Now let’s look at it the way the Bible states it. The prophesy highlights three important points in time, (1) the beginning, (2) the culmination of 483 years, and then (3) the end.
It is a 490 year prophesy so what happens at the beginning? The command goes forth. What happens next? The Messiah is killed at the culmination of the 483rd year, (in the exact month as foretold), thus linking it without question to the prophesy. Next, the beginning of the 7 year period of the Great Tribulation. The end of the prophesy is at the end of the Tribulation period, at the culmination of the 490th year, when the millennial kingdom begins for Israel. Boy, it really is a 490 year prophesy after all, and not just a 486 and 1/2 year prophesy as the preterists claim.

Next, you ask:

Well, then, please do educate us on exactly who the first century antichrist was that confirmed a covenant with the many for one week immediately after the crucifixion.

Here again the preterist’s theory has to completely abort the prophesy in order to try and make their stance work. In the preterist’s theory, none of the things spoken about the tribulation times in the Daniel verses are part of the 486 and 1/2 year prophesy at all, but are instead refereeing to a future time, some 40 years away, (even though there is no mention of the intervening years anywhere in the text). Sort of a futurist concept don’t you think?

In the biblical rendition of this prophesy (Acts-9 dispensational view), we see that Christ was cut off as foretold in the 490 year prophesy and that the tribulation times (7 years or 1 week) did start immediately after His death, but was stopped approximately 1 year later, just as Christ himself foretold would happen if Israel did not repent and recognize their Messiah;

Luke 13:6-9 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. “Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground? “But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. ‘And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down. ”

So the logical answer is that we do not know who it was that would have made the covenant because the plan was stopped prior to his making himself known, due to the continued rejection of Israel toward their Messiah. And Just as Christ foretold, if after a year, they continued to produce no fruit, they would be cut off.

Next you say:

Thank you for the demonstration in circularity, but now where exactly does Revelation say that the Great Tribulation is seven years?

Oh, just about everywhere, if you aren’t looking at it through the preterist’s filter, and are willing to take the passages in context such as in:

Rev. 12:7-14:8 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. “Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood, which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now let’s see, I was never that great at math but hmmmm, the woman (Israel) flees to the mountains for a time, times and half a time, I believe that adds up to 3 and 1/2 years. And then we see that the beast was given more time to continue. How much time? Oh, another 42 months. Now let’s see, 42 divided by 12 equals 3.5 years, converted for our purposes that would be 3 1/2 years. So, 3 1/2 years plus 3 1/2 years….hey that makes 7! That’s one of the places where it states the tribulation is 7 years, when taken in context. And notice that the last 3 1/2 years are especially tough because the Beast was then given authority to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Then you bring up the “Grammar Hammer”. Interesting. That might be true except for the phrase:

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Now in order for your “Grammar Hammer” to be correct then the people of the prince to come, must be the people of Christ Himself, since He is the afore mentioned Prince. In that case you are saying that the followers of Christ are the ones that destroy the temple, the city and then set up the abomination of desolation. Is that really what the preterists believe?

Then you go on to the “Dating Game.” And state:

and that for every evidence you can provide of the dating of certain decrees, there is differing evidence (i.e. the dating of ancient events is an imprecise science)

Oh and you have given soooo many. As in zero. Then you claim that you do believe in the prophesy but not in the fact that it could accurately predict down to the month. Then why did God go to such great lengths to show us exactly what month and year the proclamation started?

Here’s a little gift for you:

Neh. 1:1-4 The words of Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah.
It came to pass in the month of Chislev, (That’s the month of December for us) in the twentieth year, (of King Artixersies rule) as I was in Shushan the citadel, that Hanani one of my brethren came with men from Judah; and I asked them concerning the Jews who had escaped, who had survived the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem. And they said to me, “The survivors who are left from the captivity in the province are there in great distress and reproach. The wall of Jerusalem is also broken down, and its gates are burned with fire. So it was, when I heard these words, that I sat down and wept, and mourned for many days; I was fasting and praying before the God of heaven.

Neh. 2:1-6 And it came to pass in the month of Nisan (Babylonian name for the month of Abib our March-April) in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, that I took the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had never been sad in his presence before. Therefore the king said to me, “Why is your face sad, since you are not sick? This is nothing but sorrow of heart.” So I became dreadfully afraid, and said to the king, “May the king live forever! Why should my face not be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers’ tombs, lies waste, and its gates are burned with fire?” Then the king said to me, “What do you request?” So I prayed to the God of heaven. And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers’ tombs, that I may rebuild it.” Then the king said to me (the queen also sitting beside him), “How long will your journey be? And when will you return?” So it pleased the king to send me;

Now why did it take four months for Nehemiah to tell the king what he wanted? And why would God take such care to make sure that this particular month and time would be recorded?

Ex. 13:3-4 And Moses said to the people: “Remember this day in which you went out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out of this place. No leavened bread shall be eaten. “On this day you are going out, in the month Abib.

Deut. 16:1 “Observe the month of Abib, and keep the Passover to the LORD your God, for in the month of Abib the LORD your God brought you out of Egypt by night.

John 19:14-18 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!” Then he delivered Him to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus and led Him away.
And He, bearing His cross, went out to a place called the Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha, where they crucified Him,

The Passover lamb, crucified in the month of Abib (Nisan ), which is the exact same month that the order was given to rebuild the city exactly 483 years before. You can try to argue the year (with no success) but you can’t possibly argue the month, because it is plainly stated so in the verses above. Jesus was not baptized in the month of Nisan (Abib), the time of the Passover. He was crucified in that month, because He is the Passover lamb.
Feel free to accept this gift or reject it as you see fit.

About ko-desh. Once again you make a statement without any proof, (this is beginning to become your strong point). There is NOWHERE in the bible where the words ko-desh and anoint are used without the definite article, in conjunction with a person, only with an object, a place, or a thing. And despite your claim that Jesus is often referred to as a thing, you are wrong, as shown here:

Much older, more general, and also nearer the truth, is the explanation which refers these words to the anointing of the Messiah, an explanation which is established by various arguments. The translation of the LXX, ___ ________ _____ _____ , and of Theod., ___ ______ _____ _____ , the meaning of which is controverted, is generally understood by the church Fathers as referring to the Messiah. Theodoret sets it forth as undoubtedly correct, and as accepted even by the Jews; and the old Syriac translator has introduced into the text the words, “till the Messiah, the Most Holy.” 77 But this interpretation is set aside by the absence of the article. Without taking into view 1 Chron. 23:13 , the words ______ _________ are nowhere used of persons, but only of things. This meaning lies at the foundation of the passage in the book of Chronicles referred to, “that he should sanctify a ______ _________ , anoint him (Aaron) to be a most holy thing.” Following Hävernick, therefore, Hengstenberg (2nd ed. of his Christol. iii. p. 54) seeks to make this meaning applicable also for the Messianic interpretation, for he thinks that Christ is here designated as a most holy thing. But neither in the fact that the high priest bore on his brow the inscription ______ ________ , nor in the declaration regarding Jehovah, “He shall be ___________ ,” Isa. 8:14 , cf. Ezek. 11:16 , is there any ground for the conclusion that the Messiah could simply be designated as a most holy thing. In Luke 1:35 Christ is spoken of by the simple neuter _____ , but not by the word “object;” and the passages in which Jesus is described as _ _____ , Acts 3:14 ; 4:30 , 1 John 2:20 , Rev. 3:7 , prove nothing whatever as to this use of ______ of Christ. Nothing to the purpose also can be gathered from the connection of the sentence. If in what follows the person of the Messiah comes forward to view, it cannot be thence concluded that He must also be mentioned in this verse.

Cf. Raymundis Martini, Pugio fidei, p. 285, ed. Carpz., and Edzard ad Abodah Sara, p. 246f., for evidences of the diffusion of this interpretation among the Jews.
Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (2002). Commentary on the Old Testament. (Da 9:24). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson

Hebrew and Greek won’t translate to my posts.

Next you said:

But let’s look at it once again. Jesus, prior to His crucifixion, was announcing Himself as the fulfillment of the Jubilee imagery of Daniel 9 and said that this Scripture is fulfilled THAT day in their hearing. You would have this taking place in the 68th week, and be completely irrelevant to the Daniel 9 prophecy which reeks of said Jubilee imagery.

The only thing that reeks here is the misinterpretation that the preterists shove into these passages. The fulfillment that Jesus is talking about here, as plainly stated in the passage, is the Isaiah verses. He, Jesus, is the fulfillment. He is the one who does these things. He doesn’t state, as you contend, that this is the fulfillment of the Daniel 9 passage, in relation to the Jubilee, but rather that He is the fulfillment of the Isaiah passage. He is the one to preach good tidings to the poor; He is the one that has been sent to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

Finally you try and deal with the Jeremiah passage:

The relevance to this discussion is apparent. At the time that Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse, He was not speaking of a “good” nation upon whom He was now going to pronounce some blessing, He was speaking of an evil nation that would soon demand that He be crucified rather than a murderer (Mark 15:11 Matthew 27:21), cried out for His blood to be upon them and upon their children (Matthew 27:25), and pledged allegiance to no king but Caesar (John 19:15)…

…The point of all of these passages is that the rejection of the Jews was ALREADY predicted, and the consequences were clearly laid out. And the fact is that the Jews behaved exactly how predicted, and thus there is absolutely no reason for judgment to have been averted.

Unfortunately your preterists bias has forced you to miss the entire point of the tribulation period, as well as God’s character. Yes God pours out His wrath on the Jews, but why? Because He wants Israel to turn back to Him, so that He can fulfill the promises He made to the fathers. God has always purged Israel to refine her. Through all of her troubles and captivities, it was always to bring her back to Him, just as it is in the Tribulation period.

Zech 13:7-9 “ Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion,” Says the LORD of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones. And it shall come to pass in all the land,” Says the LORD, “That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one- third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.”

Is. 1:24-27 Therefore the Lord says, The LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel, “Ah, I will rid Myself of My adversaries, And take vengeance on My enemies. I will turn My hand against you, And thoroughly purge away your dross, And take away all your alloy. I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city.” Zion shall be redeemed with justice, And her penitents with righteousness.

Mal 3:2-4 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap. He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. “Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem Will be pleasant to the LORD, As in the days of old, As in former years.

Rev 2:25 “But hold fast what you have till I come. “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations”

God will refine Israel through the Tribulation period and she will return to Him, so that He can give her the Kingdom, and so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

This is yet another reason why your idea of the Tribulation falls flat. The preterist position shows God completely abandoning Israel, and stomping the whole nation out in His wrath.
The biblical position shows that the tribulation is a nessissary pre-condition to
Israel’s receiving the kingdom, a blessing, but that God stoped the tribulation because corporate Israel refused to return to Him. And since they refuse, He will not give them their promised kingdom until she is ready for it. Perfectly in keeping with the Jeremiah passage, and God’s character as shown throughout the bible. And notice how even after the crucifixion, (which you claim sealed Israel’s fate), the apostles are still trying to get Israel to repent so that:

Acts 3:19 “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Now why would they still be doing that if it was already too late for Israel?

In summation: As clearly shown DD completely misses the entire point of the tribulation period and God’s unique relationship with the nation of Israel, thinking that the tribulation is only intended to punish the nation, rather than its true intent, which is to cleanse Israel so that she is ready to receive her eternal kingdom as promised.

Once again we see that the correct translation of the Dan 9 prophesy is “to anoint the most holy place.”

It has also been established, (as everyone in Christendom, except the preterists, already know), that the tribulation period is 7 years long, with the last half being especially horrible.

It has been shown that the “he” in the Dan 9 prophesy could not be referring to Christ, unless DD is willing to state that she believes God ordered His own people to construct the abomination of desolation to defile His own temple. I doubt even she will go that far.

I have demonstrated how Daniel’s 490 year prophesy really is 490 years, and not the 486 1/2 years the preterists think it is. I have outlined how the prophesy shows a distinct beginning, (the order to rebuild the city), when the messiah will be cut off after exactly 483 years, (the crucifixion of Christ), and an exact end, (the end of the tribulation and giving of the kingdom). The preterists theory has the crucifixion happening around the middle of the 483rd year (with no clear indicator), and the end happening some ambiguous time around the conversion of Paul. Wow that really puts some teeth in the prophesy. Who could possibly doubt God on that one?

And most importantly it has been proven that the date of the crucifixion of Christ was established by Daniel’s 490 year prophesy to the exact year and month, thus completely disputing the preterists entire theology.

So DD, do you really think Antiochus was one of Jesus followers?

 

[OMEGA]

EZEKIEL'S WAR

EZEKIEL'S WAR

The "Servitude of the Nation" and the
"Desolations of Jerusalem"

are often confused. They are two independent

periods, largely overlapping, but

both lasting seventy years.

The "desolations of Jerusalem" began with the annihilation of
the city of Jerusalem

and the Solomon's Temple in 587 B.C. According to Jeremiah it
was punishment

for not yielding to the "Servitude of the Nation" which began
in 606 B.C., with the

first siege of Nebuchandnezzar.[Jeremiah 27:6,8,11; 38:17-21.
29:10, Daniel 9:2 ]

"In the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the
books the number of

years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the
prophet, that he

would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of
Jerusalem." (Daniel 9:2)

"Seventy weeks are determined For your people (Israel) and for
your holy city

(Jerusalem)," (Daniel 9:24)

Since two separate prophecies are talked about here can we
apply the same

calculations used for the "Servitude of the Nation" on the
"Desolations of

Jerusalem"? In Ezekiel 4:1-7 the prophecy is not only for the
"Servitude of the

Nation" but also for the "Desolations of Jerusalem."
-------------------

Jewish calendar: 8 Elul 3243
=25,200 days (Daniel 9:24)

Gregorian calendar: 10 August 587 BC (modern civil calendar)
Jewish calendar: 27 Av 3174

Solomon's temple was destroyed on 9-10 Av 3174
=23-24 July 587 BC.
[Jeremiah 52:12-13 ]
------------------------------
Jeremiah 25:11
"And this whole land shall be a desolation and an
astonishment, and these nations

shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years"

There are 360 days in the Jewish year
In this prophecy the 360 day year time scale must also be used

for the 70 year prophecy.

360 days x 70 years = 25,200 days.

The period from the summer of 606 B.C (the first siege)
to the summer of 537 B.C. (the decree of Cyrus) is exactly
25,200 days.
This corresponds to 70 years of 360 days duration!
--------------------------------------

Ezekiel 4:3-6

"This will be a sign to the house of Israel. Lie also on your
left side, and lay the

iniquity of the house of Israel upon it. According to the
number of the days that you

lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity. For I have laid on
you the years of their

iniquity, according to the number of the days, [390] three
hundred and ninety days;

so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
And when you have completed them, lie again on your right
side; then you shall

bear the iniquity of the house of Judah [40] forty days.

I have laid on you a day for each year" .

Each day represents one biblical year.
[390 + 40 years] = 430 biblical years .
----------------

(Leviticus 26:18 - 28
"And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish
you
7x more for your sins"

430 years = first 70 years
= 360 years x 7
= 2,520 biblical years x 360 day
= 907,200 days

( 907,200 / 360 = 2485 years + 5 months + 25 days.)

( 70 x 360 = 25,200 days / 365 = 69 years + 15 days )
--------------------------

The Servitude of the Nation: the loss of independence in 606
B.C

Gregorian calendar: 15 July 0537 BC (modern civil calendar)
Jewish calendar: 15 Av 3224

= 25,200 days (Jeremiah 25:11)

Gregorian calendar: 17 July 0606 BC (modern civil calendar)
Jewish calendar: 5 Av 3155 (3155/12/5)

= the loss of independence in the summer of 606 B.C.
------------------------

The loss of Jerusalem in 587 B.C. was also 19 years.


Israel lost its independence in 606 B.C. but Jerusalem was
left intact with the

Second temple.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Lion:

Hey thank you for taking at least a few days to respond. And I thank you for giving me several posts to catch up with the unanswered questions from some of your posts.... but speaking of unanswered questions.... I would really, really prefer not to respond until you do the same. There is that really big honking unanswered question that I have asked you about three times now (that you briefly answered once and I forcefully rechallenged) about the rest of the timing passagqes in the NT. It is restated on page 8 of this thread at 01-08-2003 05:28 AM. I would appreciate it if you would answer that as well before I post anything further so that we are both "caught up" so to speak.

Please let me know if that is amenable to you.

 

[Explosived]

dummie stuff

dummie stuff

Let me ask a question If I may, If the Jews had received Christ as their Saviour as as nation what would of happened?
Do you believe they would of went right into the Millin.?

 

[Lion]

...nose is longer than a telephone wire...

...nose is longer than a telephone wire...

DD-You said:

but speaking of unanswered questions.... I would really, really prefer not to respond until you do the same. There is that really big honking unanswered question that I have asked you about three times now (that you briefly answered once and I forcefully rechallenged) about the rest of the timing passagqes in the NT. It is restated on page 8 of this thread at 01-08-2003 05:28 AM. I would appreciate it if you would answer that as well before I post anything further so that we are both "caught up" so to speak.

OH PA-LEASE! This is the fourth time you have asked this question, and I have answered it each and every time! Now you may not like, or accept my answer, but you must acknowledge that I have answered it. As proven below. Your question:

…which book also declares it is near and soon with such time indicators which you have conceded in the Gospels places such prophetic fulfillment squarely within the first century. You cannot have it both ways. As of the time of the writing of Revelation (which of course I place prior to 70AD) the Great Tribulation was near, and soon, and at hand for them, not us or anyone else. You cannot concede in the Discourse that those timing statement do place the events within the first century, but after the prophesy was given, the prophesy was aborted, and then deny the implication of the near timing phrases uttered after said near time fulfillment was already allegedly aborted.

My answer:

Not true at all. Since the plan has been put on hold. And since there are no prophesies to indicate when God will resume working with Israel, (except for the passage concerning the fullness of the gentiles), no one knows when it will happen. None of the apostles knew, including Paul or John, and neither do we. So they adopted the attitude that it would be soon, just as we should adopt the same attitude, acting as if it will come tomorrow so that we will be ever watchful.

You asked:

I have one other issue to bring in, that I brought in my prior post which has remained unacknowledged thus far. Specifically, you agree that there are unambiguous time references in the Gospels teaching that the Great Tribulation and a “coming” of Christ was expected in the first century. You differ with the preterists in that you believe that although this was expected and actually begun, it was interrupted about one year after the resurrection. This puts you in a tremendous bind for you have sold the farm with the concessions to the preterist position made thus far. Why? Because the “near” time references do not end in the Gospels, they continue throughout the entire New Testament even in NT books written after this plan was allegedly interrupted.

I answered:

You need to go back and read my last post again. I not only completely answered this question, but also showed how it fits perfectly with an Acts-9 theology but flies in the face of your theology. I’m going to paste my previous answer for you here, but it will make my post longer, so don’t blame me for being wordy. In the last post I said;

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true at all. Since the plan has been put on hold. And since there are no prophesies to indicate when God will resume working with Israel, (except for the passage concerning the fullness of the gentiles), no one knows when it will happen. None of the apostles knew, including Paul or John, and neither do we. So they adopted the attitude that it would be soon, just as we should adopt the same attitude, acting as if it will come tomorrow so that we will be ever watchful.

You asked:

And what was that you said about the rest of the very damaging New Testament timing verses??? Oh that’s right. Nothing.

And, again, I answered:

I assume you are again referring to the last half of the tribulation period. Already answered above.

SO, now that you see I have answered it each and every time you have asked it, I will, hopefully for the last time answer it again. Christ spoke as if the coming tribulation and kingdom were imminent! For that generation, in fact it would happen so fast that they wouldn’t even get through all of the cities of Israel before it was done:

Matt. 10:23 “When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Hey that brings up another point against you, do you really think it would have taken 40 years just to make it through the cities of Israel? No, that sounds a lot more like a seven-year job to me.

However, once the plan was put on hold, due to Israel’s continued rejection of their Messiah, the time of the end was anyone’s guess. Only the Father knows when it will be:

Mark 13:32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John didn’t know when the time would be when he wrote the book of Revelation, neither did the angel that spoke to him, nor even God the Son, but rather only God the Father knows. So from the time the plan was stopped, until this very day, we should treat each day as if the time is now, but realize that it could be another thousand years away.

Now as I said, you may not agree with, or like this answer, since it does not go along with the preterist’s version of the Tribulation, but I have, indeed, once again answered it for you.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Lion:

I acknowledged that you gave that answer, so forgive me if you got the impression that I was saying you never gave an answer. However, the last round that I refered you to interacted with that response and required further defense from you. That is what I was referring to. That post I referred you to totally acknowledged your first answer and requires further response as I poked holes in your answer. I am not trying to misrepresent you or what you have or have not answered, and ask your forgiveness if it appears that I have done that in any way. I truly would like a fuller answer to that post I referred you to because I showed in that post how your imminence answer is impossible. Of course you already gave the imminence answer, if not, I would not have known to address it, and you have not addressed my fuller challenge. If you choose though not to provide a fuller answer now, I will then just simply bring it back up again in fuller detail in my response. I was hoping you would interact more with my objections now though.

 

[Lion]

Zech. 8:23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language

Zech. 8:23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language

Explosived-You asked:

Let me ask a question If I may, If the Jews had received Christ as their Saviour as as nation what would of happened?
Do you believe they would of went right into the Millin.?

Great question, for both of us.

If the nation of Israel had accepted Jesus as their Messiah what would have happened?

The 70th week (the 7 year period of the Great Tribulation) would have happened, immediately following the crucifixion, as foretold in the 490 year prophesy. Why? Because that was God’s plan all along, so there would be no reason to stop it. God would sift Israel, as well as the rest of the world, to expunge the dross, and refine His people. The events listed in the prophesy, as well as all the horrifying events in the book of Revelation would have come to pass. God’s people would emerge as the silver and the gold and become the nation of priests they were meant to be. The Kingdom would have been given to them and the thousand-year reign would have commenced as promised. The rest of the events would continue to proceed as stated in the Book of Revelation.