The Case Against Universal Healthcare

[lovemeorhateme]

IF that meant decent healthcare for everyone, I would welcome them as well.

For me, it just seems like it should walk hand in hand with the prolife/anti-abortion position.

Yes, I mean everyone can get the healthcare they need irrespective of income. To me it's the most compassionate position.

I certainly wouldn't support any funding of cosmetic surgery which should absolutely be paid for privately.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

If we make up a scenario that happens in the UK, will you be convinced that your system is bad as well?

I don't believe that the system we have in the UK is perfect, indeed it has flaws. I just believe it's better than the alternative described above which is utterly abhorrent.

 

[Stripe]

I don't believe that the system we have in the UK is perfect, indeed it has flaws. I just believe it's better than the alternative described above which is utterly abhorrent.

You're responding to an argument from consequence and emotional blackmail — irrational ploys loved by liberals. If you want to make a case for universal healthcare, you have to make it a rational one. :up:

 

[Arthur Brain]

You're responding to an argument from consequence — an irrational ploy loved by liberals. If you want to make a case for universal healthcare, you have to make it a rational one. :up:

Which he has done from the outset. Seriously, you should change your name to something else starting with 's' and ending in 'e', namely 'Soundbite' just to clarify...

lain:

 

[Rusha]

Yes, I mean everyone can get the healthcare they need irrespective of income. To me it's the most compassionate position.

I certainly wouldn't support any funding of cosmetic surgery which should absolutely be paid for privately.

If it's not for medical reasons, I agree.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

You're responding to an argument from consequence and emotional blackmail — irrational ploys loved by liberals. If you want to make a case for universal healthcare, you have to make it a rational one. :up:

There have been a number of rational points made throughout this thread. The reality is that to fully understand such a system one needs to know the consequences which arise from having or not having universal healthcare.

The scenarios mentioned above happen in the USA. The USA does not have universal healthcare. Those same scenarios could never happen in the UK. The UK does have universal healthcare.

Using this argument I will now posit that unless you want such scenarios to happen, one should logically accept that universal healthcare is the way to prevent them from happening.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

If it's not for medical reasons, I agree.

That's what I meant, plastic surgery for reasons of vanity.

 

[Rusha]

That's what I meant, plastic surgery for reasons of vanity.

Agreed.

 

[Stripe]

There have been a number of rational points made throughout this thread. The reality is that to fully understand such a system one needs to know the consequences which arise from having or not having universal healthcare.

The scenarios mentioned above happen in the USA. The USA does not have universal healthcare. Those same scenarios could never happen in the UK. The UK does have universal healthcare.

Using this argument I will now posit that unless you want such scenarios to happen, one should logically accept that universal healthcare is the way to prevent them from happening.

I'm afraid this argument is not rational. As you say, there are consequences from universal healthcare as well. Why are we not logically justified in rejecting your system because it has consequences?

 

[rexlunae]

Can you understand how we look across the Atlantic with bemusement and feel mystified when we hear things like this? It's difficult to even get my head around how a healthcare system would allow this to happen, especially when that system is in the richest country in the world.

Yes, I completely understand that. About this and many other things.

From that I take it that you would welcome an NHS style system with open arms.

The NHS isn't the only way to do it, and it's not the only system I'd acccept. But it's the simplest I know of, and it seems to be founded on ideals that get right to the point.

I'm sure that not every Christian shares exactly the same views. I have a number of American Christian friends, and they are all lovely people. There's a few on this site who seem to be more hate filled than loving, however. It's not necessarily what's said, but how it's said...

That's exactly my point. What you see on TV and from politicians is actually a pretty poor representation of Christians in the US. But it is the form that political Christianity usually takes, and it's pretty ugly, and it's a diminishing but still fairly potent voting block.

 

[Granite]

Seriously? What do you think about that?

What I don't understand is why certain Christians around here would support such an abhorrent, cruel system.

Because interestingly enough there is a mean streak of Social Darwinism throughout much of evangelical Christianity.

You're right: On paper, the first people in the world you'd expect to be behind caring for and providing medical assistance for absolutely everybody should be Christians. So what does that tell you about the state of Christianity in my country?

 

[resodko]

the retarded satanist bloviates on and on about what Christians should do:

Because interestingly enough there is a mean streak of Social Darwinism throughout much of evangelical Christianity.

You're right: On paper, the first people in the world you'd expect to be behind caring for and providing medical assistance for absolutely everybody should be Christians. So what does that tell you about the state of Christianity in my country?

good one, retard! :thumb:

 

[resodko]

Here in the U.S. there are literally millions of people who work full time and still cannot afford health insurance.

:think:

The federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour

7.25 dollars/hour x 40 hours/week x 52 weeks/year = $15080 per year

In 2012, consumers shouldered 16.3 percent of all health care costs, spending an average of $768 per person on copays, coinsurance and deductibles —$35 more than in 2011.Sep 24, 2013

15080 - 768 = $14312 a year

 

[lovemeorhateme]

I'm afraid this argument is not rational. As you say, there are consequences from universal healthcare as well. Why are we not logically justified in rejecting your system because it has consequences?

The consequences of not having universal healthcare are far worse than the consequences of having it. What do you think should happen to those who cannot afford healthcare?

 

[resodko]

The consequences of not having universal healthcare are far worse than the consequences of having it. What do you think should happen to those who cannot afford healthcare?

here in the states they get medicare or medicaid, or are provided care at non-profit hospitals who pass the burden onto the (privately) insured

nobody gets turned away

 

[This Charming Manc]

try some real stats

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/individual-premiums/

Average cost per month per person is £235

Average take home on minimum wage is $1,120.70

One person is borderline, as soon as there is a dependent its just plain unaffordable.

That is why 25+ million odd Americans dont have health insurance.

You are bright enough to know this so why are you spreading disinformation?

:think:



7.25 dollars/hour x 40 hours/week x 52 weeks/year = $15080 per year



15080 - 768 = $14312 a year

 

[This Charming Manc]

here in the states they get medicare or medicaid, or are provided care at non-profit hospitals who pass the burden onto the (privately) insured.

would it be better if the people who paid for the system of free care get to use it as well?

 

[resodko]

average monthly premium (from your source) is $235.27

235.27 x 12 = $2823.24

annual salary for minumum wage is $15080

15080 - 2823.24 = 12256.76

that's just over $1000 a month

 

[resodko]

would it be better if the people who paid for the system of free care get to use it as well?

in canada (and britain too, i suspect) those who can afford to purchase additional insurance do

or, if they're in government or a union, they arrange to get it as a perk

 

[Granite]

try some real stats

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/individual-premiums/

Average cost per month per person is £235

Average take home on minimum wage is $1,120.70

One person is borderline, as soon as there is a dependent its just plain unaffordable.

That is why 25+ million odd Americans dont have health insurance.

You are bright enough to know this so why are you spreading disinformation?

Because most of those people seem to think the poor and working class have only themselves to blame for their troubles.

Funny but I don't remember Jesus ever saying "sink or swim."