The Ascension

[Danoh]

I believe it in context, not as a proof text for your views. Justification is about our initial coming to Christ when we are declared righteous (legal term) and our past sins are dealt with. At that point of conversion, there are no future sins yet. Reconciliation deals with our past sins....My objection is to think we can persist in sheer rebellion, sin, and disobedience with impunity because non-existent sins have blanket forgiveness just because our past sins were dealt with at justification.

I think you are jumping to conclusions in a reactive vs responsive way, becoming a godplayer, quick to deny the same grace you have in your fellow believer's lives. You should be going after the Mormons, JWs, Unitarians, etc. here, not your fellow believer who avoids license and legalism by following the way of love demonstrated by Jesus and Paul (loving obedience flowing from grace/faith is not legalism or self-righteousness, but the fruit of yielding to the Spirit)

Nick, I'm thinking that in the above you perhaps meant "without impunity" not "with impunity."

For there is the impunity you appear to be asserting is your belief on this.

As in passages such as...

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

 

[jamie]

God is infinite and eternal. The soul is infinite and eternal.

Therefore, your soul is your god.

 

[Danoh]

Just introduce the clown to GT, and then leave them to one another :chuckle:

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Prizebeatz..... To be more specific, I understand what you mean when you say literal, and I understand that the moral compass and message of love is the little red riding hood, as well as a warning that mankind fails itself regularly.

That brings the 24,000,000 dollar question. Is there any validity to Theism, Deism, or Pantheism at all?


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Please excuse my ignorance but I am not well-versed in Theism/Deism/Pantheism. I think there's validity within many schools of thought. Almost none of them are entirely accurate, however. They tend to have some elements that ring true and others that don't. This applies to Christianity as well. Then we factor in the idea that there are multiple ways to interpret things. Some could or could not be more right or wrong than others but that is in the eyes of the beholder. A friend described it to me like spokes on a wheel. The further away one gets from the center the further they get from the source and vice versa. I've always likened it to looking at different sides of the same house. One view does not necessarily negate another. All in my humble opinion of course.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Please excuse my ignorance but I am not well-versed in Theism/Deism/Pantheism. I think there's validity within many schools of thought. Almost none of them are entirely accurate, however. They tend to have some elements that ring true and others that don't. This applies to Christianity as well. Then we factor in the idea that there are multiple ways to interpret things. Some could or could not be more right or wrong than others but that is in the eyes of the beholder. A friend described it to me like spokes on a wheel. The further away one gets from the center the further they get from the source and vice versa. I've always likened it to looking at different sides of the same house. One view does not necessarily negate another. All in my humble opinion of course.

Understood. Fair enough.


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

Please excuse my ignorance but I am not well-versed in Theism/Deism/Pantheism. I think there's validity within many schools of thought. Almost none of them are entirely accurate, however. They tend to have some elements that ring true and others that don't. This applies to Christianity as well. Then we factor in the idea that there are multiple ways to interpret things. Some could or could not be more right or wrong than others but that is in the eyes of the beholder. A friend described it to me like spokes on a wheel. The further away one gets from the center the further they get from the source and vice versa. I've always likened it to looking at different sides of the same house. One view does not necessarily negate another. All in my humble opinion of course.

The story of Jonah has a prophet of The Living God present himself in a way that the people he had to minister to would understand. The people of Ninevah worshiped a fish God. Jonah was vomited up from a fish. He was given back his life as he was in the belly of the fish for too long a time to have lived. More specifically, he was given life again that his miraculous appearance would bring faith to the people of Ninivah. Ironically, Jonah thought God would destroy the heathen Ninivites for not knowing God as he knew God.

In the end, God had mercy and the Ninivites rejoiced in the message Jonah brought them, by the extreme coaxing of God. Jonah kind of hated the Ninivites and seemed to think God should too.


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[Prizebeatz1]

Therefore, your soul is your god.

The message is that we are one with God because of the soul. "Your soul is your god" sounds like a statement of ownership. We have to allow God to own us instead.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

I believe I understand you and I agree.


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

I would even go as far to say that any other way is theft of what God gave us.


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[patrick jane]

I believe I understand you and I agree.


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Welcome to TOL NIG !!!

 

[Prizebeatz1]

The story of Jonah has a prophet of The Living God present himself in a way that the people he had to minister to would understand. The people of Ninevah worshiped a fish God. Jonah was vomited up from a fish. He was given back his life as he was in the belly of the fish for too long a time to have lived. More specifically, he was given life again that his miraculous appearance would bring faith to the people of Ninivah. Ironically, Jonah thought God would destroy the heathen Ninivites for not knowing God as he knew God.

In the end, God had mercy and the Ninivites rejoiced in the message Jonah brought them, by the extreme coaxing of God. Jonah kind of hated the Ninivites and seemed to think God should too.


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The personality often thinks it can use or control God for its own devices but the story of Jonah shows us what can happen when its the reverse. This is a great example. The personality actually projects its ideas of what is good and right onto what it wants God to think and do and say. My preconceived notions got shattered when my experience of God was supreme stillness and silence. I got my feelings hurt when I found it was not the way I thought it was nor the way it was made out to be by the church leaders. I wanted so badly to be right and I wanted the church to be right too. It was painful to find out the truth but it would be more painful not to in the long run. Thanks for the input.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

More specifically, God is greater than I, and our souls are fractions of infinity. Yet our souls are not as God. Our ways are not Gods ways. Surrender to God is the beginning of Wisdom.


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

The personality often thinks it can use or control God for its own devices but the story of Jonah shows us what can happen when its the reverse. This is a great example. The personality actually projects its ideas of what is good and right onto what it wants God to think and do and say. My preconceived notions got shattered when my experience of God was supreme stillness and silence. I got my feelings hurt when I found it was not the way I thought it was nor the way it was made out to be by the church leaders. I wanted so badly to be right and I wanted the church to be right too. It was painful to find out the truth but it would be more painful not to in the long run. Thanks for the input.

Your words are felt in my heart. I genuinely appreciate what you are saying!!!! I genuinely know that pain!


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

Welcome to TOL NIG !!!

Thank you Patrick.


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[freelight]

The esoteric meaning...............

The esoteric meaning...............

Do we honestly believe a man was taken up into the sky? It's a fairytale and a myth. It must mean something other than the literal interpretation. What could it symbolize?

Hi John and all following,

After reading the dialogue so far, I'll just confirm and add that all aspects of Jesus death, burial, resurrection and ascension can also apply figuratively to our own process of our soul's conversion,...since 'God' is the primal source, the essence from which all experience is configured, apart from which nothing could be. Hence, 'Christ' is the light or divinity in man, unfolding itself via the transformations of matter and spirit in man's experience. This may be far too 'spiritualized' or 'new age' sounding for most of the conversatives here, but we must recognize both 'literal' and 'figurative' aspects of religious writing, the exoteric and esoteric aspects of language. It is the Spirit that gives life, but the soul receives the translations of the divine to its intellect and experience.

On a broad and universal level, "the 'Ascension" from a planetary perspective refers to the entire collective consciousness of man ascending towards the height of God-consciousness, it is the process of our rebirthing and awakening to our divine potential and unity with God. This corresponds with your analogy of the 'soul' being one with the eternal and infinite nature of Deity, being of divine Spirit. Now how the soul is composed and interacts with its various component parts (spirit, matter, energy, etc.) varies from school to school, tradition to tradition, but some basic universal symbols, principles and archetypes hold true, as part of the Ancient Wisdom teaching.

Paul referred to our being crucified, buried, raised and ascended with Christ, and this cannot be understood apart from the inner esoteric meaning and our very identification with that divine essence, light and spirit of God involving itself within the soul's experience. This is what is included in being "in Christ" to coin Paul's terminology,...it is wholly a spiritual interaction and transformational process of the soul with the Spirit. Such an understanding is basic to esoteric wisdom and metaphysical principles. Since man is made/created in the image/likeness of Deity, as an individual expression thereof,.....well....there you have the 'mirrored' experience of the 'inner' and 'outer' aspects of consciousness. Such is seeing the inner meaning or 'soul' behind the 'terms' or 'language' being used on a literal level,...there is always the subjective insight and interpretation of the symbols being viewed, and different explanations of what is being interpreted in various contexts. What is communicated is a matter of 'translation', beyond pure knowing. Essential values and meanings however remain at the heart of so many sayings, and that is what the soul intuits from a deeper level of being.

Hence, the story of Jesus holds all its 'literal' and 'spiritual' value, as they go hand in hand as a "mirror" of the soul, reflecting its own story and experience of 'ascension'. - don't forget...that all the phases preceding 'ascension' must be gone thru, in order for the 'ascension' to take place, (death, burial, resurrection, ascension)...so the 'process' itself shows the natural and spiritual process of the soul. Nothing as far as we know or experience exists outside the soul! (our conscious being) - this is not the exaltation of the soul as 'God' per se,...but that the soul is the medium or translator of God, its individual expression. All transformation is 'translation' of one kind or form to another

To the Ascension! :surf:

 

[freelight]

"I AM" - this includes all soul units

"I AM" - this includes all soul units

Therefore, your soul is your god.

Not quite, but isn't the soul a creation of 'God' in his own image and likeness? Does the soul reflect or express Deity within this context?

 

[Prizebeatz1]

More specifically, God is greater than I, and our souls are fractions of infinity. Yet our souls are not as God. Our ways are not Gods ways. Surrender to God is the beginning of Wisdom.


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I think you've got the right idea. The reason we think the soul is only a fraction is because of identification with the personality. Once we reverse engineer it's structures we actually experience our true infinite selves. It is analogous to the resurrection and Ascension.


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

The Ascension

I think you've got the right idea. The reason we think the soul is only a fraction is because of identification with the personality. Once we reverse engineer it's structures we actually experience our true infinite selves. It is analogous to the resurrection and Ascension.

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I'll step out on a limb here, especially because of prize lights words in addition to our dialogue.

I used grammatical slight of hand. You detected it.

A fraction of infinity is still fully infinity.

The story of Adam and Eve is clearly more than just an occurrence conveyed to give us a sliver of an idea of why and how. It contains verbiage that insinuates a desire of God to convey his desire for us to be unified with Him.

By Yeshewa being equated with Adam later on, it makes this very apparent.

Adam essentially would have rather died, than lose the companionship of Eve, for it was not good for Him to be alone. Yet, his choice of sharing in disobedience to God was a disruption of the souls Harmony with God.

As far as the level of that Harmony, well the word Numa or Breath of God is given to Adam for life and transferred to Eve from Adam after it is clear that harmony and companionship are principles God desires.

The Numa is literally Spirit! It's in the Hebrew study of the word. And to say that God dwells in us as part of us at birth may sound crazy to many, or even offend, but if Paul is taken into account, he says... "Do you not know that your body is the temple of God?" Um... This is clearly a God dwells within us validation.

Our surrender to God is the start of our unique identities union with God. However it also begins a collective union with ALL humanity! Love begins to dominate our decisions. And unity becomes a concern.

To put it basic. Eve was to Adam as We (humanity) are to God. And of course, Yeshewa/Jesus is called our bride groom. That means we are His cherished bride by this frequently used analogy. The very idea again insinuates a collective Union with God and one another.

The importance of this is that many take religious formats of salvation and ritual and dogma. This causes them to believe they must make others understand God as they do. Typically, exactly as they do. And... Vwallla.. Division on a mass human scale. To divide is human and angelic, but to unify is Gods work. Love is the binding of humanity, while division is the obvious work of all that are not God.
When God divides, it is clearly with pain, tears and an overwhelming sense of loss that was unavoidable. It is clearly a function of doing away with that which refuses to unify with God and humanity.

There is a warning in Jesus's words. He says.. "Many will come to me saying Lord, Lord"... (Paraphrasing)... I did this and that for You, but He replies.. Get away from me, I do not know you. This would insinuate they knew Jesus but did not know Love and thus did not really know Him. This is echoed again in a more specific parable about sheep and goats. The bottom line is that God stated that what Love was given to even to least, lowest, most judged of humanity... It was given to Him. And the opposite is true of ill that was given to the least. It is equated with being given to God. There is even verses in the Tanakh and Christian Bible that insinuate and even plainly say, how can we Love God who we haven't seen if we Hate any that we have seen.

More specifically, Union with Gods precepts goes far beyond teaching, or precepts of theology. It goes to our Union with the Numa and its Will. (To be specific... ). The word Numa/Breath that was placed in Adam is the same word that was used for Spirit of God hovering over the formless vapor.

Clearly, there is a need for our souls to listen to infinity. Clearly we are not God, but God is closer than we think. Or more specifically... Part of our very spiritual being. I say spiritual being instead of soul, to allow interpretation to be a little less controversial to any who read this.

In the end, the story of Jesus shows Jesus making it clear that God would rather take responsibility for all of our errors, than be disunified with a single one of us, though God produces no error. Even our imperfection speaks of a God that believes in CHOICE and freedom, above dystopian tyranny and meaningless practices that fail to unify the finite with infinity.







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[Prizebeatz1]

The Ascension

Not quite, but isn't the soul a creation of 'God' in his own image and likeness? Does the soul reflect or express Deity within this context?

I don't want to get too caught up with words here but when I think if Spirit it gives me the connotation of something outside myself. From my understanding God is infinite so I prefer to use the word soul. Yes this includes the ego/personality and many will tend to judge that as bad and will unconsciously try to separate it from Spirit but God is not separate from us because He is infinite. Also Spirit gives me the sense of Holy Spirit that depended on Jesus breathing on the apostles before it was available to humanity. From my experience God's presence is unconditional and does not depend on events in history. It goes far far beyond the human concept of time and the purity of its universal unwavering undivided qualities are absolutely impeccable. There is not a single speck of doubt or fear and this extends without restriction.

IMO the soul is our internal or inner Spirit. The personality is part of the soul too and we have to reverse engineer it to become self-realized and see it is not really our true identity but an imitation. We don't have to judge the ego/personality as bad, wrong, sinful as that is biting of the forbidden fruit of judgement which is the downfall of mankind. All of this is subject to interpretation of course and we will all have our own views and terms and preferred descriptive language. I am not trying to negate anyone's preferences but I am just offering my own view as one out of many.


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[Prizebeatz1]

Hi John and all following,

After reading the dialogue so far, I'll just confirm and add that all aspects of Jesus death, burial, resurrection and ascension can also apply figuratively to our own process of our soul's conversion,...since 'God' is the primal source, the essence from which all experience is configured, apart from which nothing could be. Hence, 'Christ' is the light or divinity in man, unfolding itself via the transformations of matter and spirit in man's experience. This may be far too 'spiritualized' or 'new age' sounding for most of the conversatives here, but we must recognize both 'literal' and 'figurative' aspects of religious writing, the exoteric and esoteric aspects of language. It is the Spirit that gives life, but the soul receives the translations of the divine to its intellect and experience.

On a broad and universal level, "the 'Ascension" from a planetary perspective refers to the entire collective consciousness of man ascending towards the height of God-consciousness, it is the process of our rebirthing and awakening to our divine potential and unity with God. This corresponds with your analogy of the 'soul' being one with the eternal and infinite nature of Deity, being of divine Spirit. Now how the soul is composed and interacts with its various component parts (spirit, matter, energy, etc.) varies from school to school, tradition to tradition, but some basic universal symbols, principles and archetypes hold true, as part of the Ancient Wisdom teaching.

Paul referred to our being crucified, buried, raised and ascended with Christ, and this cannot be understood apart from the inner esoteric meaning and our very identification with that divine essence, light and spirit of God involving itself within the soul's experience. This is what is included in being "in Christ" to coin Paul's terminology,...it is wholly a spiritual interaction and transformational process of the soul with the Spirit. Such an understanding is basic to esoteric wisdom and metaphysical principles. Since man is made/created in the image/likeness of Deity, as an individual expression thereof,.....well....there you have the 'mirrored' experience of the 'inner' and 'outer' aspects of consciousness. Such is seeing the inner meaning or 'soul' behind the 'terms' or 'language' being used on a literal level,...there is always the subjective insight and interpretation of the symbols being viewed, and different explanations of what is being interpreted in various contexts. What is communicated is a matter of 'translation', beyond pure knowing. Essential values and meanings however remain at the heart of so many sayings, and that is what the soul intuits from a deeper level of being.

Hence, the story of Jesus holds all its 'literal' and 'spiritual' value, as they go hand in hand as a "mirror" of the soul, reflecting its own story and experience of 'ascension'. - don't forget...that all the phases preceding 'ascension' must be gone thru, in order for the 'ascension' to take place, (death, burial, resurrection, ascension)...so the 'process' itself shows the natural and spiritual process of the soul. Nothing as far as we know or experience exists outside the soul! (our conscious being) - this is not the exaltation of the soul as 'God' per se,...but that the soul is the medium or translator of God, its individual expression. All transformation is 'translation' of one kind or form to another

To the Ascension! :surf:

+1


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