Swine Sausage - Sin?

[6days]

I'm surprised to discover that there are people who use the Bible to say that certain foods, such as pork, are unclean and sinful. Various verses seem to clearly indicate we can't defile ourselves by the type of food we eat.

Ex...Mark 7:18-19King James Version (KJV)
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

I was using Acts 10, Peters vision, to show that there is no unclean foods. The counter argument is that the food in Acts 10 in only to be taken metaphorically.

What say you.... is it a sin to eat oysters, pork, *blood sausage, head cheese etc?

 

[Bright Raven]

I'm surprised to discover that there are people who use the Bible to say that certain foods, such as pork, are unclean and sinful. Various verses seem to clearly indicate we can't defile ourselves by the type of food we eat.

Ex...Mark 7:18-19King James Version (KJV)
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

I was using Acts 10, Peters vision, to show that there is no unclean foods. The counter argument is that the food in Acts 10 in only to be taken metaphorically.

What say you.... is it a sin to eat oysters, pork, *blood sausage, head cheese etc?

Peters vision proclaims all thing clean.

 

[aikido7]

I'm surprised to discover that there are people who use the Bible to say that certain foods, such as pork, are unclean and sinful. Various verses seem to clearly indicate we can't defile ourselves by the type of food we eat.

Ex...Mark 7:18-19King James Version (KJV)
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

I was using Acts 10, Peters vision, to show that there is no unclean foods. The counter argument is that the food in Acts 10 in only to be taken metaphorically.

What say you.... is it a sin to eat oysters, pork, *blood sausage, head cheese etc?

What we categorize as sinful is not necessarily sinful to others in different denominations or different faiths.

It's interesting to me that I can chalk up differences between and among others as part of our shared reality and don't get too upset at differences in details. I try to focus on the underlying patterns and structures that unite all those serious about their beliefs.

Of course, I also need to be open as I can to focused criticism of my stance. I can never truly assert that I am right and others are wrong.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

I've never seen Peter's vision as being about unclean food, that is about diet, at all, as scripture bears out, when you read the rest of Acts 10.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The entire lesson isn't about diet, but about not considering the Gentiles unclean, or any person unclean, that the God of the New Covenant is the God of all. (Though one can also conclude the Gentile diet is not, therefore, unclean of itself, or Gentiles would have been unclean by diet.) As to foods, what goes into the belly or not spiritually commends nothing, as you well point out of our Lord's teaching in the Mark verses, though one must do whatever they do in faith. If you're thinking something is a sin in these things, to you it's sin.

Romans 14

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I'd hasten to add that not all food is healthy, that I find some unclean foods grotesque and don't eat them for this reason, but neither think twice there's any merit in diet, don't think twice about dietary so-called sin. Grace, of course, is not by any works, only by faith in the work and righteousness of Christ. People who think they're helping the Lord save them by avoiding some food have a very weak or perverted faith. God is not impressed by what we put or don't put at the end of a fork! I'd be more concerned to keep the law of loving God and neighbor, this first and always first.

 

[rstrats]

6days,
re: "I'm surprised to discover that there are people who use the Bible to say that certain foods, such as pork, are unclean and sinful."

I'm not aware of any scripture that refers to unclean animals as "food".



re: "Various verses seem to clearly indicate we can't defile ourselves by the type of food we eat. Ex...Mark 7:18-19King James Version (KJV)"

The context of Mark 7 has to do with the Pharisees' practice of always washing their hands before eating. The subject is not clean and unclean animals, but unclean hands. The Messiah showed that unclean thoughts are the things that most defile a man, not just unwashed hands. After explaining that inner defilement of the mind is far worse than defilement of the body, the Messiah concluded, 19"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness blasphemies. 20"These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

The Pharisees watched every word and movement that the Messiah made. They falsely accused Him of breaking the Sabbath, and claimed that He blasphemed when He said God was His Father John 5:18. But never did any Jew accuse the Messiah of eating, or advocating the eating of unclean animals.



re: "What say you.... is it a sin to eat oysters, pork, *blood sausage, head cheese etc?

In Isaiah, before the new heavens and new earth are established, God speaks about a rebellious people who walk in a way that is not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoke Me to anger continually to My face, (65:2,3). One of the reasons these people provoke the Lord is because they eat swine's flesh, and broth of unclean meat is in their pots, (65:4).

Also, God declares that He will consume those people who eat swine's flesh, detestable things, and mice. (Isa.66:17). The context of this prophecy is the end times, right before the new heaven and new earth. This would certainly seem to suggest that the Lord will still expect an obedience to His dietary laws.

And Revelation talks of unclean birds which doesn't make sense if all unclean animals have been made clean.

 

[chrysostom]

paul said what goes in your mouth can't hurt you
what comes out of it can
pork?
this is just one of the so called laws paul was talking about
the other laws still apply

 

[rstrats]

chrysostom,
re: "paul said what goes in your mouth can't hurt you what comes out of it can"

Where does Paul say that?

 

[chair]

It is part of Jewish Law to not eat some types of food. It was not meant for Gentiles. Due to the history of Christianity, and how it grew out of Judaism, you still hear echoes of this.

 

[chrysostom]

chrysostom,
re: "paul said what goes in your mouth can't hurt you what comes out of it can"

Where does Paul say that?

okay
it was Jesus who said that
what do you expect from a catholic?

 

[patrick jane]

Colossians 2:16 KJV - Colossians 2:14-23 KJV -



Colossians 2:14-15 KJV and 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23

All food is good good good - :TomO:

 

[daqq]

When was the last time anyone asked the swine if he would like to offer up his flesh for the eater? Or a lamb, or a cow, or a bull, or an ox for that matter? "Thou shalt not murder-kill", (PERIOD).

Isaiah 1:10-15
10. Hear the word of YHWH, you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah:
11. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? says YHWH: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats:
12. When you come to appear before Me, who has required this at your hand to tread my courts?
13. Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto Me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14. Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15. And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide My eyes from you: yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

All because they did not understand the Torah, and that it concerns not the slaying and carving up of literal physical living creatures, or the literal eating of the innocent flesh thereof; and likewise the same genos of religious leaders of the so-called church today have the same errant misconceptions concerning the Torah, and blood on their hands for killing and eating living creatures with souls, every time they raise their hands to pray. Meat is murder. :chuckle:

 

[musterion]

Legalists gonna legal.

 

[jamie]

In preaching the kingdom of God Paul said, "the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17 NKJV)

 

[daqq]

Legalists gonna legal.

Have you noted the title of this legalistic thread? It is probably the most often raised legalistic dietary question, (especially if you ever visit Messianic forums). If we are gonna do it then so be it, let's do it. Do you eat steaks, cow-burgers, and-or happy meal cheeseburgers? If so you have innocent blood on your hands for causing the deaths of those living creatures whose flesh you enjoy devouring, (wow, that really sounds heinous now that I actually wrote it and read it back to myself). :crackup:

By the way look what Peter actually says in the Acts 10 passage already referenced:

Acts 10:13-14
13. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; slay, and eat!
14. But Peter said, Not so, Master; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Do you realize that this is at least seven to ten years after the physical ministry of Messiah? If Messiah "declared all foods clean" in Mark 7:19, (as some claim) then apparently Peter never got the memo! Likewise most of the arguments and statements made by Paul concern broma which is food that has been ordained by God as food to be eaten by man. Anything else simply does not qualify as "food". You can find such broma-foods which qualify as food in the book of Genesis, (chapter one and chapter nine which adds fish that swarm in schools because they are not living souls). :chuckle:

 

[patrick jane]

Have you noted the title of this legalistic thread? It is probably the most often raised legalistic dietary question, (especially if you ever visit Messianic forums). If we are gonna do it then so be it, let's do it. Do you eat steaks, cow-burgers, and-or happy meal cheeseburgers? If so you have innocent blood on your hands for causing the deaths of those living creatures whose flesh you enjoy devouring, (wow, that really sounds heinous now that I actually wrote it and read it back to myself). :crackup:

By the way look what Peter actually says in the Acts 10 passage already referenced:

Acts 10:13-14
13. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; slay, and eat!
14. But Peter said, Not so, Master; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Do you realize that this is at least seven to ten years after the physical ministry of Messiah? If Messiah "declared all foods clean" in Mark 7:19, (as some claim) then apparently Peter never got the memo! Likewise most of the arguments and statements made by Paul concern broma which is food that has been ordained by God as food to be eaten by man. Anything else simply does not qualify as "food". You can find such broma-foods which qualify as food in the book of Genesis, (chapter one and chapter nine which adds fish that swarm in schools because they are not living souls). :chuckle:

So, why don't you run around worrying about what you eat according to OT law and keep it to yourself. You won't save anybody while complaining about a ham sandwich.

Romans 14:6 KJV - Romans 14:7-9 KJV -


Romans 14:10 KJV Romans 14:12-13 KJV - Romans 14:14 KJV


Romans 14:15-17 KJV -

Eat up Zackree !!!

 

[daqq]

So, why don't you run around worrying about what you eat according to OT law and keep it to yourself. You won't save anybody while complaining about a ham sandwich.

Romans 14:6 KJV - Romans 14:7-9 KJV -


Romans 14:10 KJV Romans 14:12-13 KJV - Romans 14:14 KJV


Romans 14:15-17 KJV -

Eat up Zackree !!!

I see, so ya'all simply start legalistic threads so that anyone who responds in a way with which you disagree can be labeled a legalist? Sounds like nothing more than bait and switch tactics people such as yourselves use to corner others they do not agree with and stick a label on their foreheads. How about this: if you want nothing to do with this topic or have nothing to add to such a conversation then why do you not simply go find another thread more suited to your kosher ham sandwhich taste buds? (no, there really is no such thing as a kosher ham sandwich, lol). And who says it is my job to "save" anyone? Do you think that is what you are commissioned to do in your life? You reveal your messiah complex all too flippantly. I do not run around worrying about what others eat but I did respond to a thread about the topic which was started by someone else. Did I start this thread? Are you that blind? Why are you suggesting to me that I should be keeping my thoughts on the topic of this thread to myself? Why are you not castigating the one who started this legalistic thread for doing so in the first place? You seem like you really need the true love of Messiah in your life. How are you going to "save" anyone if you have no love? However, I would not advise going around bragging that you have "saved" anyone if I were you, (the real God is a jealous God). :chuckle:

 

[Angel4Truth]

1 Timothy 4:22 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

 

[daqq]

1 Timothy 4:22 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

YOU also were created by God were you not? There must be restrictions so what are they? Otherwise you may eat your neighbor according to your apparent understanding of the passage you quoted.

1 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV
3. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, [GSN#1033 broma] which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Strong's Ref. #1033
Romanized broma
Pronounced bro'-mah
from the base of GSN0977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law:

As stated on the previous page most of the arguments and statements of Paul on this topic concern BROMA which is foods that are declared by God as food to be eaten by man. BROMA does not mean MEAT as translated by your favorite carnivores. Get someone else besides carnivores to render the Scriptures into English for you, (yes I see that at least your version was not as bad as the KJV). :chuckle:

 

[Angel4Truth]

YOU also were created by God were you not? There must be restrictions so what are they? Otherwise you may eat your neighbor according to your apparent understanding of the passage you quoted.

1 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV
3. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, [GSN#1033 broma] which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Strong's Ref. #1033
Romanized broma
Pronounced bro'-mah
from the base of GSN0977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law:

As stated on the previous page most of the arguments and statements of Paul on this topic concern BROMA which is foods that are declared by God as food to be eaten by man. BROMA does not mean MEAT as translated by your favorite carnivores. Get someone else besides carnivores to render the Scriptures into English for you. :chuckle:

Im not under jewish law.

 

[patrick jane]

I see, so ya'all simply start legalistic threads so that anyone who responds in a way with which you disagree can be labeled a legalist? Sounds like nothing more than bait and switch tactics people such as yourselves use to corner others they do not agree with and stick a label on their foreheads. How about this: if you want nothing to do with this topic or have nothing to add to such a conversation then why do you not simply go find another thread more suited to your kosher ham sandwhich taste buds? (no, there really is no such thing as a kosher ham sandwich, lol). And who says it is my job to "save" anyone? Do you think that is what you are commissioned to do in your life? You reveal your messiah complex all too flippantly. I do not run around worrying about what others eat but I did respond to a thread about the topic which was started by someone else. Did I start this thread? Are you that blind? Why are you suggesting to me that I should be keeping my thoughts on the topic of this thread to myself? Why are you not castigating the one who started this legalistic thread for doing so in the first place? You seem like you really need the true love of Messiah in your life. How are you going to "save" anyone if you have no love? However, I would not advise going around bragging that you have "saved" anyone if I were you, (the real God is a jealous God). :chuckle:

I thought I was talking to ZacharyB - that's why I ended with: eat up Zackree. So, do you feel that certain foods are unclean and forbidden to eat ?