ECT Suggestion to Knight

Derf

Well-known member
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the inner man will never experience the second death.
But the outer man will experience the second death?

In regard to your suggestion that when the Scriptures speak of receiving life that it might no[t] happen right now then please consider the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (Jn.5:24-25).​

They did! Everyone who heard the voice of the Son of God telling them to arise, arose. Lazarus, Jairus' daughter. the widow's son. And the concept of the foregone conclusion of death being replaced with the foregone conclusion of life fits just fine with Jesus' words. I don't see why this statement has to contain some impenetrable nugget of truth about the inner and outer man.

But one thing your verse does not have is a time when those that hear shall live. The only indication we have is that it is in the future: "shall" live. So, even though the time "now is", the living is in the future for the dead folk.

shall
SHal,SHəl
verb
1.(in the first person) expressing the future tense.
"this time next week I shall be in Scotland"



I can only believe that those who received life received it right then and there. Even if you don't can we not agree to disagree?
This is what I'm talking about, Jerry. You can only believe what you already believe. That's a great position to be in when you have every exactly right, but what if you don't?
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
It always happens!

When people cannot answer the message they attack the messenger.



Little john weenie can give it but he sure can't take it!

He spams that "wounded soul" routine to everyone. Should we get our hankies out, "sensitive" one?

Your a pathetic wimp.


Quite weighty, effeminate Jerry. Put up your pic, weakling, sissy.

Yeh...I thought so, old man.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
After such a declaration, why is anyone taking this fellow seriously at all?

There are many people who took Sir Robert Anderson seriously, and he wrote the following:

"The revelation of the Son of Man will lead the spiritual Christian, who has learned to note the hidden harmony of Scripture, to recall the language of the creation story: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." The type," as the biologist would phrase it, is not the creature of Eden, but He after whose likeness the creature was fashioned. And this suggests the solution of a "mystery." We are but men, and while angels behold the face of God, no man hath seen Him or can see Him. We are "flesh and blood," and "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." And yet as men we are to dwell in heavenly glory; and that wonderful promise shall be fulfilled to us-" They shall see His face.

"How is this seeming paradox to be explained? "Flesh and blood" are not essential to humanity. True it is that, as "the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same. He assumed "a natural body." "For there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The one pertains to "the first man," who is "of the earth earthy, the other to "the second Man," who is "of heaven." For the Lord from heaven is "Very Man," and it is as Man that He is now upon the throne. But the body is not the man: it is but the tent, the outward dress, as it were, which covers Him. And He is "the same yesterday, and to-day, and for ever " the same who once trod the roads of Galilee and the streets of Jerusalem. He is enthroned as Man, but no longer now in "flesh and blood." For ere He "passed through the heavens" He changed His dress."" (sir Robert Anderson, The Lord From Heaven).​

Charles Spurgeon considered Anderson's book Human Destiny to be “the most valuable contribution on the subject.”
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
They did! Everyone who heard the voice of the Son of God telling them to arise, arose. Lazarus, Jairus' daughter. the widow's son.

What is said there cannot be divorced from its context:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"
(Jn.5:24-25).​

The Lord said that NOW is when dead shall live. And those very words must be referring to those who passed from death unto life.

From spiritual death unto spiritual life. And "now is" the hour when this will happen.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I fully believe in free will. You are free to do what your will desires. However, after the fall, man’s will was so altered that it is incapable of doing any moral good pertaining to salvation.
Only Calvinists are incapable of doing any moral good pertaining to salvation.
 

Derf

Well-known member
What is said there cannot be divorced from its context:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"
(Jn.5:24-25).​

The Lord said that NOW is when dead shall live. And those very words must be referring to those who passed from death unto life.

From spiritual death unto spiritual life. And "now is" the hour when this will happen.

But you keep missing the "shalls". The phrase between your bolded text says "shall not come into condemnation". That's a promise of no judgment in the future.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
There are many people who took Sir Robert Anderson seriously, and he wrote the following:

"The revelation of the Son of Man will lead the spiritual Christian, who has learned to note the hidden harmony of Scripture, to recall the language of the creation story: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." The type," as the biologist would phrase it, is not the creature of Eden, but He after whose likeness the creature was fashioned. And this suggests the solution of a "mystery." We are but men, and while angels behold the face of God, no man hath seen Him or can see Him. We are "flesh and blood," and "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." And yet as men we are to dwell in heavenly glory; and that wonderful promise shall be fulfilled to us-" They shall see His face.

"How is this seeming paradox to be explained? "Flesh and blood" are not essential to humanity. True it is that, as "the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same. He assumed "a natural body." "For there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The one pertains to "the first man," who is "of the earth earthy, the other to "the second Man," who is "of heaven." For the Lord from heaven is "Very Man," and it is as Man that He is now upon the throne. But the body is not the man: it is but the tent, the outward dress, as it were, which covers Him. And He is "the same yesterday, and to-day, and for ever " the same who once trod the roads of Galilee and the streets of Jerusalem. He is enthroned as Man, but no longer now in "flesh and blood." For ere He "passed through the heavens" He changed His dress."" (sir Robert Anderson, The Lord From Heaven).​

Charles Spurgeon considered Anderson's book Human Destiny to be “the most valuable contribution on the subject.”


The Lord Jesus was in heaven as Man before He came down to earth and was born of Mary.

Thanks for unpacking that for us, Donnie, Jr. Mormon.


_
Hebrews 10 KJV
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
But you keep missing the "shalls". The phrase between your bolded text says "shall not come into condemnation". That's a promise of no judgment in the future.

Did you not read that a person who believes "is passed from death unto life" and "hath everlasting life."

And as the Lord Jesus said, NOW is the hour. Not later!
 
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genuineoriginal

New member
So you believe that you earn your salvation through good works. Duly noted. Good luck keeping the entire law perfectly.
You cannot earn your salvation through good works alone.
You cannot gain salvation through faith alone.
You do not gain salvation by assuming you are one of the "elect".

Only Jesus can decide whether you will be given eternal life (salvation) and He bases His decisions on the criteria He said He would use: they do the will of God the Father.

Matthew 7:20-23
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Please notice that Jesus also provided the criteria for those that go into damnation: they work iniquity.
 

tdhiggins

New member
You cannot earn your salvation through good works alone.
You cannot gain salvation through faith alone.
You do not gain salvation by assuming you are one of the "elect".

Only Jesus can decide whether you will be given eternal life (salvation) and He bases His decisions on the criteria He said He would use: they do the will of God the Father.

Matthew 7:20-23
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Please notice that Jesus also provided the criteria for those that go into damnation: they work iniquity.

Funny, in verse 20 Jesus said "By their fruits you will know them." I didn't realize that fruits came before that which produced them. See, works follow salvation, they do not proceed salvation. When the Holy Spirit regenerates the heart, then a person is able to do the will of Father. Even faith is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9).

If we are to take your opinion on the matter, then Jesus is not ultimately the one who decides. If I do the will of the Father, then I am the one securing my salvation. However, if doing the will of the Father is a fruit, then there has to be something which produces that fruit, which would be regeneration.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Indeed. Thus, the completion of the sentence above..
Adam had the same nature, but he chose to disobey God, failing in his probation, thus corrupting that unfallen human nature and, as a direct consequence, all his progeny by ordinary generation.​

Thanks for responding, AMR. :)


Except for one minor detail. Adam sinned while in that supposedly uncorrupt or unfallen nature. And where do you get the idea that he was "in his probation".

That last bit, ordinary generation, accounts for the fact that Our Lord was conceived very differently than all us other folks. ;)

It didn't make a difference to Adam...not being by "ordinary generation". He still sinned exactly like we do.

Hence the term, in Adam, meaning those who possess that fallen nature, if and until they are born anew, and becoming in Christ by adoption.

AMR

I don't agree the term "in Adam" is talking about anything other than being in a body of flesh....a natural human being.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
And how is it that the condemnation is passed down from Adam? That is the whole point. Since Adam sinned, and we being united to him in some way, also sinned and fell and are condemned. That is why death reigned (reigns) over men. People die because it is an effect of the totally corrupted nature.

The only way we're united to Adam is being in this body of flesh living in a world of sin. When Adam sinned, sin entered the world, and because of Adam's sin, the very ground is cursed while man returns to the ground from which he came. This is why death reigns....it's part of the curse as a result of Adam's sin.

Gen. 3:15-19 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Believers in the gospel of Christ, as laid out in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, have submitted themselves "unto the righteousness of God"(Romans 10:3 KJV).

We now have the righteousness of God, Romans 3:21-25 KJV, 4:5, secured through the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ-again Cor. 15:1-4 KJV.)

The LORD God has justified us forever only because He sees us "in Christ": Acts 13:43 KJV; Romans 3:24-28 KJV, Romans 4:25 KJV, Romans 5:1 KJV, Romans 5:9 KJV, Romans 8:30 KJV; 1 Cor. 6:11 KJV; Galatians 2:16 KJV, Galatians 3:24 KJV; Titus 3:7 KJV. This is an permanent, irreversible reckoning, decalared by the LORD God. Justification is that judicial act of a holy, just LORD God, by which, on account of the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom I am united("in Christ") by faith, and He is in me, united, He declares me to be no longer exposed to the penalty of the righteous requirements of the law, but restored to divine favor. I have been declared righteous. Justification is an act, a declaration, not a process. Upon believing 1 Cor. 15:1-4, I was given a free gift(Romans 5:18 KJV)-a righteous standing before a holy LORD God. This gift, by definition, has nothing to do with what I have done, or who I am. No amount of self-effort, or "good" works could ever bring one to justification. I did not justify myself-it is the LORD God who justifies. This gift is unchanging, cannot be given back. Once the LORD God declared me righteous, only because of what His only begotten Son did for me, what He merited, the sin/sins question regarding me has been settled once for all.

However, justification is more than forgiveness, since implicit in forgiveness, is guilt and cancellation/removal of sin, of the sin of "just doing what is required," while justification is "not guilty" at all, and the bestowing of the merit, and standing of the Lord Jesus Christ. Justification is not equivalent to being pardoned. A pardoned criminal is still a criminal. That is, a forgiven, pardoned thief, murderer,.......is still a thief, murderer....Justification removes the guilt. The LORD God thus not only "forgets" my sin, as though it never happened, but does not consider me a sinner anymore, because He sees me "in Christ".

Because I am "in Christ Jesus", I have been "...made the righteousness of God in him..."(1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV). I am "... found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..."(Phillippians 3:9 KJV)

All my sins(plural-1 Cor. 15:1-4) were forgiven at Calvary and the resurrection 3 days later:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense)of sins" Col. 1:14 KJV

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven(emphasis mine-past tense) you all trespasses" Col. 2:13 KJV

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave(emphasis mine-past tense)you, so also do ye." Col. 3:13 KJV

"In whom we have (present tense-emphasis mine) redemption through his blood, the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense) of sins, according to the riches of his grace" Eph. 1:7 KJV

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven(emphasis mine-past tense) you" Eph. 4:32.

Romans 5....."sin on a person."

In Romans 5:12 KJV Paul is no longer dealing with sins(plural), but rather with the source of sins, indwelling sin. Romans 5:12 KJV is speaking of identification, who we were in history, "positionally." We were all identified, reckoned, with the source of humanity-"in Adam". When Adam sinned, he died spiritually, and thereby died to God, and so did I- I died with him. When he became flesh, so did I-again, "in him." When he was judged/condemned, I was also judged in him.

Unlike the result, product of sin, sins(plural), the source, sin could not be forgiven, as it would be sin still. Again, the analogy-a forgiven thief is still a thief! Hence, sin had to be condemned/judged in death, Thus.....

"...God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for SIN(emphasis mine-not sins), condemned SIN(emphasis mine) in the flesh."(Romans 8:3 KJV).

Thus, our sins, plural, were forgiven by the principle of substitution(the doctrine being woven through the book):

"...Christ died for our sins..."-1 Cor 15:3 KJV

"...gave himself for our sins...."- Gal. 1:4 KJV

But our sin, singular, was condemned/judged by the principle of identification(again, woven throughout the book):

-2 Cor. 5:21="...to be SIN(emphasis mine) for us..."


Again, sins(plural) can be forgiven, but sin(singular), cannot be forgiven-it must be judged, condemned. That is, the sin nature, who I was "in Adam,"1 Cor. 15:22 KJV, was not forgiven at Calvary. My then future sins were forgiven........."Christ died for our sins"-plural-emphasis mine-1 Cor. 15:3 KJV.....) but we, as the Adamic "old man,"Romans 6:6 KJV, Eph. 4:22 KJV, Col.3:9 KJV, the source, "root," cause of those sins, was not forgiven. Sin must be judged/condemned, and it was at Calvary.. "For he(God the Father-emphasis mine) hath made him(the only begotten Son of God-emphasis mine) to be sin for us....,"2 Cor. 5:21 KJV, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh...,"Romans 8:3 KJV.

Sin-singular. The wages of sin is death...

Thus, while the Saviour was on the cross, it pleased God the Father, for our sakes, to lay our my as-yet-uncommitted sins upon Him,, and His death, by blood, for those sins freed me from the penalty. While the Lord Jesus Christ was on that same cross, God the Father identified(the meaning of the word "baptize") me, in my Adamic life of sin, with His only begotten Son, who was made to be that sin-2 Cor. 5:21 KJV). In Him, "in Christ," I died to sin. Dead. Crucified with Christ. In my death unto sin in the Lord Jesus Christ's death, baptized into His death, I was set freed from all that I was in the "first man Adam,"1 Cor. 15:45 KJV, and was re-created in the "last Adam,"1 Cor. 15:45 KJV, Romans 6:5 KJV, 2 Cor. 5:17 KJV, Eph. 2:10 KJV.

Thus, again, all my sins, plural, were forgiven via the principle of substitution, i.e., "...Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures....,(1 Cor. 15:3, KJV. However, my sin, who I was
"in Adam," was condemned/judged via the principle of identification, i.e., "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin....."2 Cor. 5:21 KJV). The Lord Jesus Christ did not die for sin, but for sins. Being made sin, our sin, He was judged, condemned, and crucified in our place.

Thus, the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for sin, singular, but for SINS. Being made sin, our sin, who we are in Adam, by nature kids of disobedience, subject to wrath, He was judged, condemned, and crucified. He, being without sin/sins, died unto sin,out of the realm of sin,having paid the price in full. Thence He was free, qualified, to rise from among the dead into "newness of life"-heavenly, glorified, "new creation life."

I, the natural man in condemned Adam, was not forgiven at the crossfor who I am "in Adam"-"wrong being." My then future sins, plural, were forgiven, but I, as the Adamic "old man", the cause/root/source of those sins, could not be, was not forgiven. Sin must be judged-it was -Romans 8:3 KJV . While the Saviour was on the cross, God the Father laid every last one of my future sins upon the Lord Jesus Christ , and His death for those sins freed me from their penalty. While the Lord Jesus Christ was on that same cross, God the Father baptized me into, identified me, in my Adamic life of sin, my sin nature, with His only begotten Son, who was made to be that sin, 2 Cor. 5:21 KJV. In Him, I died unto sin, was reckoned there. Again, I, the sinful one, was not forgiven for who I am "in Adam"-my sins were forgiven, but not the "old man", the root/source/cause of those sins. I was not forgiven in order to start all over as a "first-Adam" person. No! I was crucified with Christ,Gal. 2:20 KJV, Romans 6:6, KJV), and I died unto sin in Him-dead-sentenced-judgment.....justice carried out, served!. In that death I was reckoned to be severed/ separated from my Adamic life, the source of sin...Romans 7..... The Lord Jesus Christ's death for me redeemed me from the penalty of my sins; my reckoned/imputed death with Him freed me from the condemned/judged Adamic life and its dominion, jurisdiction, control.


The Lord Jesus Christ did not die to make "good"(i.e., no sin nature in men/women argument when born)people "better;" Ney, He died to make spiritually "dead" people, "in Adam," spiritually alive "in Christ."
 
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Danoh

New member
No one will be charged with sinning unless they know that what they are doing is wrong:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

Of course infants do not know right from wrong so they cannot be said to be sinners and neither can it be said that they sin.



When the context is examined it becomes obvious that the reference is to the sins of people and not the sin of Adam:

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21-23).​

All people sin and as a result all people die spiritually when they sin. And since all people die spiritually when they die then that means that all people were once alive spiritually. And the only possible way that can happen is because all people eerge from the womb spiritually alive.

That by itself is a dagger into the heart into the theory of Original Sin.

Nope.

In the lost, the fruits (plural) are the result of their being unable to stop themselves from serving the "old man" residing within and thus the descriptive "the body of sin" (sin - singular).

In contrast, in the Believer, the fruits are the result of allowing oneself to serve said old man's deceitful lusts.

You're wilfully being an incompetent: as in all behaviour in life: the lusts / desires compel the behaviour.

This is exactly why the Believer is to walk by faith and not by sight (the physical senses).

Faith in an INTELIGENT understanding of The Word - on ALL issues.

Because the flesh tempts the behaviours it would that one engage in: it tempts that through the five plus senses.

The other perceptual senses being the proprioceptive; the emotional; and the imaginary-visual systems.

Which is what this passage is describing...

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

In contrast to the Believer's new reality...

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Why?

Because if any man be in Christ, he...is...a new...creature...in...Him.

And so on.

Body of Sin / Body of Christ.

The Old man / The New.

In Adam / In Christ.

And so on...

You really need to properly restudy all these issues out, Jerry.

Rom. 5:6-8.
 
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