Apple7
New member
You are the one that brought it up, so, if you think that it somehow imparts a greater (or less than) deity, then show us...
Standing Up To Jehovah's Witnesses
- Thread starter WeberHome
- Start date
You are the one that brought it up, so, if you think that it somehow imparts a greater (or less than) deity, then show us...
Apple7
New member
You can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:
• The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
• Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
• Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
• Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
• Man (Gen 32.24)
Gen 32.24 - 30
And Jacob was left alone. And a Man wrestled with him until the ascending of the dawn. And He saw that He had not prevailed against him. And He touched on his hip socket, and Jacob's hip socket was unhinged as he wrestled with Him. And He said, Send Me away, for the dawn has ascended. And he said, I will not let You go unless You bless me. And He said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed. And Jacob asked and said, Please reveal Your name. And He said, Why this that you ask about My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God, because I saw God face to face, and my life is delivered.
• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, said that Jacob had wrestled with God (Gen 32.28)
• Jacob believed that the man was telling the truth (Gen 32.30)
• Jacob said that the man he wrestled, was God – that he had seen God face to face (Gen 32.30)
• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Gen 32.28)…compare to (1Ki 18.31; 2 Ki 17.34) which both state that Yahweh changed Jacob’s name
• Jacob wrestled with The Elohim-man
• Jacob wrestled with The Yahweh-man
• Jacob wrestled with The God-man
• Jacob wrestled with The second person of the Trinity, The Son
SonOfCaleb
Active member
No. I'm not thinking nor implying anything. Im telling you clearly what Jesus says in his own words at John 14:28 "..for my Father is greater than I" As I've told you 3 times already these are not my words. They're Jesus's own in the gospel of John where he clearly refers to two different individuals, himself and his father. So you can either except what Jesus said or not....
SonOfCaleb
Active member
How would you know the identity of the angel when in Gen 32:29 the angel refuses to answer Jacobs question and doesn't provide his name or identity?
Gen 32:29 In turn Jacob inquired and said: “Tell me, please, your name.” However, he said: “Why is it that you inquire for my name?”.
In addition we know Jacob couldn't have wrestled with the 'almighty God' (Yahweh/Jehovah) as Exodus 33:20 tells us when Jehovah spoke to Moses "But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”
My point by way of illustration though was to highlight the name the angel gave Jacob, IsraEL. "One who contends with God". The name was a fitting one for Jacob as he did indeed wrestle with an angel of God, the angels being described many times in the Bible as gods. Matter of fact even Satan is described as a god.
As i mentioned earlier though El means "mighty one" or "god" in Hebrew. The meaning being applied according to the context. El could rightly be applied to Jacob as he wrestled with an Angel, his name being descriptive of his act with the angel. But obviously Jacob was not a god even though his new name Israel bore the name god.
Apple7
New member
Why would you try to claim scripture as YOUR own words in the first place, dweeb?
Further, The Son is not The Father in The Trinity...so what's your point?
SonOfCaleb
Active member
I never said i did Apple7.
After repeating my point 3 times i would have thought my point was clear now as is Jesus words regarding his father.
Apple7
New member
Apple7
New member
From context, and from other scriptural locations, just as I showed you....but you continue to ignore...
You cannot see God The Father and live.
Many thousands of people saw God The Son, and lived to tell about it.
Apple7
New member
No mere 'angel' bears the name Yahweh.
Study up.
Again, I already showed other scripture stating that Yahweh was who Jacob wrestled with.
Keep ignoring.
WeberHome
New member
-
One of the Watch Tower Society's rather curious claims is located on page
237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the Watch Tower magazine; which reads:
"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar."
I'm a fan of a very bright woman named Marilyn vos Savant. She pens a
weekly column in the Sunday paper's Parade Magazine. Her tested IQ is
somewhere in the 200 range. Marilyn received a question that goes like this:
QUESTION: Our family has been arguing about this: If a person makes a
statement, and another person challenges it; who has the burden of proof?
MARILYN'S ANSWER: Usually the person who makes an affirmative
statement (defined as a statement that asserts a fact, makes an allegation,
or favors an action; etc) has the burden of proof. America's justice system is
an example. The prosecution (or the plaintiff, as the case may be) rather
than the defense, must prove its case to the jury. Failure to prove it's case,
requires that the defense be exonerated.
In other words: when the Society makes a claim like the one on page 237 of
the April 15, 1963 issue of the Watch Tower magazine; it has a moral
obligation to substantiate it with Scripture because it is not up to the
Society's opponents to prove its claims are false; it is up to the Society to
prove it's claims are true.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
One of the Watch Tower Society's rather curious claims is located on page
237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the Watch Tower magazine; which reads:
"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar."
I'm a fan of a very bright woman named Marilyn vos Savant. She pens a
weekly column in the Sunday paper's Parade Magazine. Her tested IQ is
somewhere in the 200 range. Marilyn received a question that goes like this:
QUESTION: Our family has been arguing about this: If a person makes a
statement, and another person challenges it; who has the burden of proof?
MARILYN'S ANSWER: Usually the person who makes an affirmative
statement (defined as a statement that asserts a fact, makes an allegation,
or favors an action; etc) has the burden of proof. America's justice system is
an example. The prosecution (or the plaintiff, as the case may be) rather
than the defense, must prove its case to the jury. Failure to prove it's case,
requires that the defense be exonerated.
In other words: when the Society makes a claim like the one on page 237 of
the April 15, 1963 issue of the Watch Tower magazine; it has a moral
obligation to substantiate it with Scripture because it is not up to the
Society's opponents to prove its claims are false; it is up to the Society to
prove it's claims are true.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Apple with all due respect your M.O is quite obvious. I could write a 20 page thesis thoroughly debunking the Trinity which is a pagan teaching that has its roots in ancient Babylonian mysticism and paganism. But i think my time would be better spent elsewhere.
In addition what you choose to believe is obviously your prerogative, and its quite obvious that you've chosen to ignore Jesus own words in the Bible in deference for a doctrine that was no where to be found in early Christianity, much less a word that is nowhere to be found in ANY Bible and yet is so fundamental a teaching to many of Christendoms religions.
Jesus said at Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine.." Not that I'm calling you a swine or a dog of course but from my point of view there's no intelligible discussion/debate/reasoning that that i can glean from this discussion with you. So il leave it there. Thanks.
Apple7
New member
You can't even address scripture without running away, like a quintessential good JW.
How in the world are you Trinity-deniers going to witness to a person like me who can own your false doctrine seven-ways-to-sundown...?
Imagine the headlines...
'Jehovah Witness gets utterly destroyed at doorstep of Trinitarian!!!'
WeberHome
New member
-
†. John 2:19-22 . . Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three
days. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and
will you raise it up in three days?
. . . But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was
raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say
this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.
Now I should think that anybody with even a sixth grader's level of reading
comprehension would easily see that Christ was speaking of a physical
resurrection for himself rather than a spirit resurrection.
Watchtower Society missionaries have informed me that, instead of restoring
Jesus Christ's corpse to life, God dismantled it into a zillion teensy little
microscopic pieces and scattered them to the four winds. However, even if
the missionaries' affirmation was actually stated in the Bible record; Christ's
remains wouldn't have remained in a microscopic condition for longer than
three days or people would have good reason to believe he told a big
whopper at John 2:19-22 --not just about that; but about other things he
said too.
The Society's resurrection doctrine perpetuates a version of the lie that
guards were bribed to say Jesus Christ's corpse was stolen away so that his
disciples could claim a resurrection took place when none had; except the
Society's version says it was Yhvh who stole Christ's corpse instead of his
disciples; insinuating that God is a grave robber.
According to Heb 6:1-2, resurrection is an elementary subject; in other
words: it's for beginners. Well; think about it. If the Watchtower Society's
resurrection doctrine is faulty; just think how much more faulty its advanced
doctrines must be.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
†. John 2:19-22 . . Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three
days. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and
will you raise it up in three days?
. . . But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was
raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say
this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.
Now I should think that anybody with even a sixth grader's level of reading
comprehension would easily see that Christ was speaking of a physical
resurrection for himself rather than a spirit resurrection.
Watchtower Society missionaries have informed me that, instead of restoring
Jesus Christ's corpse to life, God dismantled it into a zillion teensy little
microscopic pieces and scattered them to the four winds. However, even if
the missionaries' affirmation was actually stated in the Bible record; Christ's
remains wouldn't have remained in a microscopic condition for longer than
three days or people would have good reason to believe he told a big
whopper at John 2:19-22 --not just about that; but about other things he
said too.
The Society's resurrection doctrine perpetuates a version of the lie that
guards were bribed to say Jesus Christ's corpse was stolen away so that his
disciples could claim a resurrection took place when none had; except the
Society's version says it was Yhvh who stole Christ's corpse instead of his
disciples; insinuating that God is a grave robber.
According to Heb 6:1-2, resurrection is an elementary subject; in other
words: it's for beginners. Well; think about it. If the Watchtower Society's
resurrection doctrine is faulty; just think how much more faulty its advanced
doctrines must be.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
WeberHome
New member
-
Watchtower Society sophists argue that the account of the metemorphe
(transfiguration) found at Matt 17:1-9 showed Jesus' true angelic form,
proving his ability to materialize a human form at will. Oh? Does it?
According to the Society's own doctrines, it is impossible to exist as a spirit
being and a human being simultaneously. Now this is important because it
means that in order for Jesus to exist in human form, his angel form had to
be terminated. So at the time of the transfiguration, Jesus' human form was
his true form. In words: if anything, the transfiguration would not prove his
ability to materialize himself as a human, but rather, as an angel.
Had Jesus Christ undergone a change of nature in the transfiguration scene,
he would have also undergone a change of name, but at no time during the
event was he ever referred to as Michael; instead, throughout the event
continued to be referred to as Jesus; which is his human name.
During the event, a voice from heaven identified Jesus as "my beloved son".
According to the first chapter of the letter to Hebrews, God has never taken
an angel as either His son or His heir.
All three of the synoptic gospels report the transfiguration event as a
preview of the future kingdom; which, according to Heb 2:5-8 will be ruled,
managed, and supervised by human beings rather than by angel beings.
This presents a knotty problem for the Society because according to its
sophists, Jesus' body cannot be taken off the altar; viz: it has to stay dead
and cached away somewhere on the earth in order to remain an effective
sacrifice for the sins of the world.
The fact of the matter is that had Jesus morphed into an angel; the sacred
text would say so; but it doesn't; indicating that the Society has gone and
done something very common with cultists like Joseph Smith, Mary Baker
Eddy, Herbert W. Armstrong, David Koresh, and Jim Jones: it has forced the
Bible to mean things that it does not say in writing. According to 2Pet 3:15,
people point a gun at their heads when they do that.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Watchtower Society sophists argue that the account of the metemorphe
(transfiguration) found at Matt 17:1-9 showed Jesus' true angelic form,
proving his ability to materialize a human form at will. Oh? Does it?
According to the Society's own doctrines, it is impossible to exist as a spirit
being and a human being simultaneously. Now this is important because it
means that in order for Jesus to exist in human form, his angel form had to
be terminated. So at the time of the transfiguration, Jesus' human form was
his true form. In words: if anything, the transfiguration would not prove his
ability to materialize himself as a human, but rather, as an angel.
Had Jesus Christ undergone a change of nature in the transfiguration scene,
he would have also undergone a change of name, but at no time during the
event was he ever referred to as Michael; instead, throughout the event
continued to be referred to as Jesus; which is his human name.
During the event, a voice from heaven identified Jesus as "my beloved son".
According to the first chapter of the letter to Hebrews, God has never taken
an angel as either His son or His heir.
All three of the synoptic gospels report the transfiguration event as a
preview of the future kingdom; which, according to Heb 2:5-8 will be ruled,
managed, and supervised by human beings rather than by angel beings.
This presents a knotty problem for the Society because according to its
sophists, Jesus' body cannot be taken off the altar; viz: it has to stay dead
and cached away somewhere on the earth in order to remain an effective
sacrifice for the sins of the world.
The fact of the matter is that had Jesus morphed into an angel; the sacred
text would say so; but it doesn't; indicating that the Society has gone and
done something very common with cultists like Joseph Smith, Mary Baker
Eddy, Herbert W. Armstrong, David Koresh, and Jim Jones: it has forced the
Bible to mean things that it does not say in writing. According to 2Pet 3:15,
people point a gun at their heads when they do that.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
KingdomRose
New member
Oh no, Mr. Apple. Any JW will stand and reason with you until it can plainly be seen that you aren't interested in any other POV but your own. What is the point in beating our heads against a wall? You cannot break down our understandings. But you can rant and rave and carry on like a tent-meeting revival charlatan. Your trinitarian views are easily debunked, but you don't want to hear it! Be honest with people---tell others that you don't even listen to what we have to say.
:bang: (This is what it's like to even get you to listen.)
Apple7
New member
:cigar:
Breaking-down a witness is a very easy thing to do.
You only have to learn their baker's dozen polemics, and that is all that they have.
Anything outside of their training results in them calling you names as they run away.....seen it a million times...
Breaking-down a witness is a very easy thing to do.
You only have to learn their baker's dozen polemics, and that is all that they have.
Anything outside of their training results in them calling you names as they run away.....seen it a million times...
WeberHome
New member
-
Eternal life is easily confused with immortality. The two are not one and the
same. Immortality defines the characteristics of a supernatural body
impervious to death and putrefaction; and seeing as how believers die every
day around clock then it's obvious that they don't have immortality yet; and
according to Rom 8:23-25 and 1Cor 15:35-58 believers won't have
immortality till some time in the future. But according to John 3:36, John
6:47, John 5:24, and 1John 5:13 they have eternal life now.
Q: If eternal life has no relation to longevity: then what is it?
A: Humans are the kind of people they are because they have human
nature. God is the kind of person He is because He has divine nature. In
point to fact: God has the divine nature because there are no other true
divinities but Himself. (John 17:3)
It's doesn't take a Th.D to appreciate just how much easier it would be for a
human to relate to God if humans had His nature instead of their nature.
And that, by the way, is the primary reason why Jesus Christ distributes
eternal life to the sheep that God entrusts to his care.
†. John 17:2-3 . .You have given Your son authority over all flesh, that he
should give eternal life to as many as You have given him. And this is
eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ
whom You have sent.
Christ's statement is nothing short of blasphemy to the mind of a Torah
trained Jew because what Jesus is saying is that God has given His son the
power to endow certain select individuals with the heart and soul of a god; in
point of fact: the God. Peter saw it that way too.
†. 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to
life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His
own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious
and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become
partakers of the divine nature.
The divine nature isn't an organic kind of life, viz: it's a supernatural kind of
life; which is how it's possible for people to have it while mortal. In other
words: eternal life isn't meant to keep people from dying. For example:
Jesus Christ had eternal life (John 5:26, Col 2:9, 1John 1:1-2) but though
he's immortal now (Rom 6:9) he wasn't immortal when he was here-- the
cross proved that much.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Eternal life is easily confused with immortality. The two are not one and the
same. Immortality defines the characteristics of a supernatural body
impervious to death and putrefaction; and seeing as how believers die every
day around clock then it's obvious that they don't have immortality yet; and
according to Rom 8:23-25 and 1Cor 15:35-58 believers won't have
immortality till some time in the future. But according to John 3:36, John
6:47, John 5:24, and 1John 5:13 they have eternal life now.
Q: If eternal life has no relation to longevity: then what is it?
A: Humans are the kind of people they are because they have human
nature. God is the kind of person He is because He has divine nature. In
point to fact: God has the divine nature because there are no other true
divinities but Himself. (John 17:3)
It's doesn't take a Th.D to appreciate just how much easier it would be for a
human to relate to God if humans had His nature instead of their nature.
And that, by the way, is the primary reason why Jesus Christ distributes
eternal life to the sheep that God entrusts to his care.
†. John 17:2-3 . .You have given Your son authority over all flesh, that he
should give eternal life to as many as You have given him. And this is
eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ
whom You have sent.
Christ's statement is nothing short of blasphemy to the mind of a Torah
trained Jew because what Jesus is saying is that God has given His son the
power to endow certain select individuals with the heart and soul of a god; in
point of fact: the God. Peter saw it that way too.
†. 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to
life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His
own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious
and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become
partakers of the divine nature.
The divine nature isn't an organic kind of life, viz: it's a supernatural kind of
life; which is how it's possible for people to have it while mortal. In other
words: eternal life isn't meant to keep people from dying. For example:
Jesus Christ had eternal life (John 5:26, Col 2:9, 1John 1:1-2) but though
he's immortal now (Rom 6:9) he wasn't immortal when he was here-- the
cross proved that much.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
glorydaz
Well-known member
Reason? No. But they will stand and spew out the garbage they've swallowed hook line and sinker. There is NO reasoning with those who have been indoctrinated by JWs, but there are those who have seen the hypocrisy inside the camp, and have managed to escape from their clutches. :thumb:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Surely you're not saying these individuals will be endowed with the "heart and soul" of a god, are you?