Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[Lon]

I will add:
...
Things written by people are expected to be imperfect.

Boom! There it is. "Guilty" and "Error" upon 'expectation.'
I don't know if you can grasp this: "Expectation" is equivalent: Assumption, inkling, presupposition, what "I" bring to the text and from it rather than what is implicit.

I WILL get you to think, Cobra!

 

[2003cobra]

Who was it that was whining and crying about insults being hurled at him just a few pages back? You've lost it, you lose, even at your own childish game.

Have a nice thread . . . (dear Watchman, yes, I know it is not his thread, lol).

No crying, just noting.

Matthew said Jesus told them
“Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.”

Mark said Jesus told them:
“Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden; untie it and bring it.‘

Luke said Jesus told them:
“Go into the village ahead of you, and as you enter it you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden. Untie it and bring it here.”

Which is wrong? Which one misquotes Jesus?

 

[2003cobra]

Er, no. There is a third, a fourth, and an eightieth. Your 'logic' is a 'my way or the highway' man-made dilemma in your own head.
You, thus far, cannot think outside of its very limited confines. I'm sorry you equate assessment for slams The problem IS you.

Easy peasy to give you possible solutions that actually work. You? You ONLY want to shoot them down. You can't.

Here try this one, you will not be able to shoot it down (you'll try)
1) He told separate disciples (two)separately to go after the donkey and colt.
2) Luke is rather quoting Zechariah 9:9 in paraphrase
3) all of them are wrong John 12:14 :sigh:
4) Jesus sent them after one donkey, they had to bring back two first, because it was a colt with mother and second, to fulfill prophecy, all beyond the disciples' control, but well within Jesus' power and the prophecy that made it happen. Thus, Luke is right because Jesus did 'instruct' them to fetch the donkey yet had known all along two would come back, thus they were sent to bring one in question, but two would come back.
80) Cobra doesn't know, he is just confused and 'mistake' excuses his confusion for himself. He'd always rather accuse an Apostle or disciple than see that he is on the short end of the stick

Poor Cobra, he can't understand inerrancy or AT LEAST giving the benefit of doubt and not worrying about it toward inerrancy (innocent until PROVEN guilty). Poor Cobra cannot grasp this, has no clue what it means.

Looking at your point 1 above, you declare that Mark and Luke misquoted Jesus, an error.

Mark said Jesus told them:
“Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden; untie it and bring it.‘

Luke said Jesus told them:
“Go into the village ahead of you, and as you enter it you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden. Untie it and bring it here.”

Yet you declare
1) He told separate disciples (two)separately to go after the donkey and colt.

So you recognize that Mark and Luke misquote Jesus.

And your points 1 and 4 contradict each other:
1) He told separate disciples (two)separately to go after the donkey and colt...
4) Jesus sent them after one donkey...

So you declare two gospels misquote Jesus.

 

[2003cobra]

Boom! There it is. "Guilty" and "Error" upon 'expectation.'
I don't know if you can grasp this: "Expectation" is equivalent: Assumption, inkling, presupposition, what "I" bring to the text and from it rather than what is implicit.

I WILL get you to think, Cobra!

Why do you assume the texts are inerrant?

Why would you expect that?

They never claim to be.

I will get you to think, Lon!

And now you have admitted Mark and Luke misquote Jesus.

 

[daqq]

Looking at your point 1 above, you declare that Mark and Luke misquoted Jesus, an error.

<snip>

So you recognize that Mark and Luke misquote Jesus.

This is precisely why it is not worth debating with you. I cannot speak for Lon but I do not see that he actually did what you now accuse him of doing. He listed numbered options. You twist what people say and then try to turn your twisting against them by putting your own words in their mouths. That is the same thing you do with the scripture.

 

[2003cobra]

Also, Lon, if you check with a Hebrew expert (you don’t claim to be one of those too, do you?), Zech 9.9 is about one animal. I quoted the Oxford Annotated NRSV notes and the NET Bible translation to show that already.

 

[2003cobra]

This is precisely why it is not worth debating with you. I cannot speak for Lon but I do not see that he actually did what you now accuse him of doing. He listed numbered options. You twist what people say and then try to turn your twisting against them by putting your own words in their mouths. That is the same thing you do with the scripture.

You snipped out the proof.

Look back at what he wrote.

He contradicts scripture and himself.

Are you ever going to answer the question?

Matthew said Jesus told them
“Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.”

Mark said Jesus told them:
“Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden; untie it and bring it.‘

Luke said Jesus told them:
“Go into the village ahead of you, and as you enter it you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden. Untie it and bring it here.”

Which is wrong? Which one misquotes Jesus?

 

[Lon]

Why do you assume the texts are inerrant?

Why would you expect that?

They never claim to be.

I will get you to think, Lon!

:chuckle:

And now you have admitted Mark and Luke misquote Jesus.

:doh:

Even in Matthew, two are mentioned but it 'can' be translated 'bring IT to Me.' You just don't know enough to assume, Cobra. You are a very prideful man and takes his basic-math education and tries to talk Calculus You have a LOT of learning to do.

 

[2003cobra]

This is precisely why it is not worth debating with you. I cannot speak for Lon but I do not see that he actually did what you now accuse him of doing. He listed numbered options. You twist what people say and then try to turn your twisting against them by putting your own words in their mouths. That is the same thing you do with the scripture.

It would be a lot quicker and simpler if you and Lon just answered the simple question, but doing so would prove the doctrine of inerrancy is false.

 

[2003cobra]

:chuckle:

:doh:

Even in Matthew, two are mentioned but it 'can' be translated 'bring IT to Me.' You just don't know enough to assume, Cobra. You are a very prideful man and takes his basic-math education and tries to talk Calculus You have a LOT of learning to do.

And which translator translates it that way, Lon?

 

[2003cobra]

I will help you, Lon, in your grasping for straws:

MATTHEW 21:2
KJ21 saying unto them, “Go into the village opposite you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them unto Me.
ASV saying unto them, Go into the village that is over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
AMP saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and at once you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to Me.
AMPC Saying to them, Go into the village that is opposite you, and at once you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie [them] and bring [them] to Me.
BRG Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
CSB telling them, “Go into the village ahead of you. At once you will find a donkey tied there with her foal. Untie them and bring them to me.
CEB He said to them, “Go into the village over there. As soon as you enter, you will find a donkey tied up and a colt with it. Untie them and bring them to me.
CJB with these instructions: “Go into the village ahead of you, and you will immediately find a donkey tethered there with its colt. Untie them and bring them to me.
CEV He told them, “Go into the next village, where you will at once find a donkey and her colt. Untie the two donkeys and bring them to me.
DARBY saying to them, Go into the village over against you, and immediately ye will find an *** tied, and a colt with it; loose [them] and lead [them] to me.
DLNT saying to them, “Proceed to the village before you, and immediately you will find a donkey having been tied, and a colt with her. Having untied them, bring them to Me.
DRA Saying to them: Go ye into the village that is over against you, and immediately you shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them and bring them to me.
ERV He said to them, “Go to the town you can see there. When you enter it, you will find a donkey with her colt. Untie them both, and bring them to me.
EHV telling them, “Go to the village ahead of you. Immediately you will find a donkey tied there along with her colt. Untie them and bring them to me.
ESV saying to them, “Go into the village in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me.
ESVUK saying to them, “Go into the village in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me.
EXB and said to them, “Go to the town ·you can see there [ahead of you; or opposite you]. When you enter it, you will ·quickly [immediately] find a donkey tied there with its colt. Untie them and bring them to me.
GNV Saying to them, Go into the town that is over against you, and anon ye shall find an *** bound, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
GW He said to them, “Go into the village ahead of you. You will find a donkey tied there and a colt with it. Untie them, and bring them to me.
GNT with these instructions: “Go to the village there ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied up with her colt beside her. Untie them and bring them to me.
HCSB telling them, “Go into the village ahead of you. At once you will find a donkey tied there, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to Me.
ICB He said to them, “Go to the town you can see there. When you enter it, you will find a donkey tied there with its colt. Untie them and bring them to me.
ISV told them, “Go into the village ahead of you. At once you will find a donkey tied up and a colt with it. Untie them, and bring them to me.
PHILLIPS As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage and the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples ahead telling them, “Go into the village in front of you and you will at once find there an *** tethered, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. Should anyone say anything to you, you are to say, ‘The Lord needs them’, and he will send them immediately.”
JUB saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied and a colt with her; loose them and bring them unto me.
KJV Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
AKJV saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
LEB saying to them, “Go into the village before you, and right away you will find a donkey tied and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me.
TLB “Just as you enter,” he said, “you will see a donkey tied there, with its colt beside it. Untie them and bring them here.
MSG When they neared Jerusalem, having arrived at Bethphage on Mount Olives, Jesus sent two disciples with these instructions: “Go over to the village across from you. You’ll find a donkey tethered there, her colt with her. Untie her and bring them to me. If anyone asks what you’re doing, say, ‘The Master needs them!’ He will send them with you.”
MEV saying to them, “Go over into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to Me.
MOUNCE saying to them, “Go into the village · ahead of you, and right away you will find a donkey tethered, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me.
NOG He said to them, “Go into the village ahead of you. You will find a donkey tied there and a colt with it. Untie them, and bring them to me.
NABRE saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an *** tethered, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them here to me.
NASB saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied there and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to Me.
NCV and said to them, “Go to the town you can see there. When you enter it, you will quickly find a donkey tied there with its colt. Untie them and bring them to me.
NET telling them, “Go to the village ahead of you. Right away you will find a donkey tied there, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me.
NIRV He said to them, “Go to the village ahead of you. As soon as you get there, you will find a donkey tied up. Her colt will be with her. Untie them and bring them to me.
NIV saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me.
NIVUK saying to them, ‘Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me.
NKJV saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me.
NLV He said to them, “Go to the town over there. You will find a donkey tied and her young with her. Let them loose and bring them to Me.
NLT “Go into the village over there,” he said. “As soon as you enter it, you will see a donkey tied there, with its colt beside it. Untie them and bring them to me.
NMB saying to them, Go into the town that lies in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and her colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me.
NRSV saying to them, “Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
NRSVA saying to them, ‘Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
NRSVACE saying to them, ‘Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
NRSVCE saying to them, “Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
NTE ‘Go into the village over there,’ he said, ‘and at once you’ll find a donkey tied up, and a foal beside it. Untie them and bring them to me.
OJB saying to them, Go into the shtetl ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey having been tied and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
TPT “As soon as you enter the village, you will find a donkey tethered along with her young colt. Untie them both and bring them to me.
RSV saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an *** tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
RSVCE saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an *** tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.
TLV saying to them, “Go into the village before you. Right away, you’ll find a donkey tied up and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to Me.
VOICE Jesus: Go to the village over there. There you’ll find a donkey tied to a post and a foal beside it. Untie them and bring them to Me.
WEB saying to them, “Go into the village that is opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them, and bring them to me.
WE He said to them, `Go into the village in front of you. As soon as you go in, you will find a donkey for riding, and her young one. They are tied there. Untie them and bring them to me.
WYC and said to them [saying to them], Go ye into the castle that is against you, and at once [and anon] ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her; untie ye, and bring to me.
YLT saying to them, `Go on to the village over-against you, and immediately ye shall find an *** bound, and a colt with her -- having loosed, bring ye to me;

Apparently no translators are willing to mistranslate it, mixing the plural with the singular, to support your pretending there is not an error.

 

[Lon]

I will help you, Lon, in your grasping for straws:

....
Apparently....

Left to guessing?
λέγων αὐτοῖς· πορεύθητε εἰς τὴν κώμην τὴν ἀπέναντι ὑμῶν,
Saying to them travel into the village before you

καὶ εὐθέως εὑρήσετε ὄνον δεδεμένην καὶ πῶλον μετ᾿ αὐτῆς·

and soon/directly you'll come unto/find a donkey and younger one with it/her.

λύσαντες ἀγάγετέ μοι.　
loose and bring (one or both) to me.

The rest? What translators wanted to help make English sense. You've built your theology off of assumptions.

 

[daqq]

two are mentioned but it 'can' be translated 'bring IT to Me.'

There it is right there Lon.

For if you look in Zec 9:9 the first donkey is male, (chamor), but that is not how Matthew reads. Matthew has the feminine gender autes. So the female donkey is tied, and the colt is with her, and he says to bring [it] the colt to him. Thus by comparing the passages we can see what is going on. Luke uses the exact same form of luo, (lusantes), but with auton (masculine).

Luke 19:30 W/H
30 λεγων υπαγετε εις την κατεναντι κωμην εν η εισπορευομενοι ευρησετε πωλον δεδεμενον εφ ον ουδεις πωποτε ανθρωπων εκαθισεν και λυσαντες αυτον αγαγετε

Matthew 21:2 W/H
2 λεγων αυτοις πορευεσθε εις την κωμην την κατεναντι υμων και ευθεως ευρησετε ονον δεδεμενην και πωλον μετ αυτης - λυσαντες αγαγετε μοι

This is why most honest translations will have them in italics ("bring them to me"), if that word is used at all, because it can be understood either way depending on how the reader decides to "hear" the text, (the context thus defines how it should be read). But in this case the context is not explicit enough so one must go back to the quote from where it speaks. Since the quote speaks of a male donkey the Matthew statement cannot mean bring them both because the donkey in the Matthew statement is female, (autes - αυτης).

Matthew 21:2 YLT
2 saying to them, 'Go on to the village over-against you, and immediately ye shall find an *** bound, and a colt with her--having loosed, bring ye to me;

In the Young's Literal Bible above it is more clear and fairly easy to be seen that he speaks of merely bringing the colt which was with the female donkey. In the Zechariah passage both a male and female donkey are mentioned. The first is a he-donkey, (chamor), while the colt is the son or foal of a she-donkey. It is therefore just as Matthew records it:

Zechariah 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon a he-donkey, [H2543 chamowr] even upon a colt, the foal of a she-donkey [H860 'athown].

The he-donkey is the colt, the son of a she-donkey, and was with its mother just as Matthew records, and the Master did not tell the disciples to bring both of them but rather to bring the colt. Once again, as even you have said a while back, Cobra is beffuddled over a mere translational issue and crying foul about something he does not understand because he did not dig deep enough before making his accusation against the scripture.

 

[daqq]

Left to guessing?
λέγων αὐτοῖς· πορεύθητε εἰς τὴν κώμην τὴν ἀπέναντι ὑμῶν,
Saying to them travel into the village before you

καὶ εὐθέως εὑρήσετε ὄνον δεδεμένην καὶ πῶλον μετ᾿ αὐτῆς·

and soon/directly you'll come unto/find a donkey and younger one with it/her.

λύσαντες ἀγάγετέ μοι.　
loose and bring (one or both) to me.

The rest? What translators wanted to help make English sense. You've built your theology off of assumptions.

Yep, same page. :thumb:

 

[Lon]

As for the words not being the words of the writers, because the Holy Spirit captivated their human spirits, are you aware that Revelation is very poor Koine Greek with many errors (the kind Lon would ridicule)?

Yes, absolutely would refute that :chuckle: only 7, woe be unto those who made them. Perhaps the prophecy doesn't reach unintentional copy error. :think: The ONLY time a 'poor' Greek would be considered, is in quoting the O.T. The KJV, for example, is a direct quote from Greek word for word. It is not, however, to be considered 'poor English' OR 'greek' for that matter You love rumors and gossip, Cobra. Sad days all around, you look for support and know next to nothing of these of which you speak. YOU are committed IN ignorance.

 

[2003cobra]

Left to guessing?
λέγων αὐτοῖς· πορεύθητε εἰς τὴν κώμην τὴν ἀπέναντι ὑμῶν,
Saying to them travel into the village before you

καὶ εὐθέως εὑρήσετε ὄνον δεδεμένην καὶ πῶλον μετ᾿ αὐτῆς·

and soon/directly you'll come unto/find a donkey and younger one with it/her.

λύσαντες ἀγάγετέ μοι.　
loose and bring (one or both) to me.

The rest? What translators wanted to help make English sense. You've built your theology off of assumptions.

Of course, this does not eliminate the error.

Matthew has two beasts listed.

Mark and Luke have one.

So you again did not explain the error.

And the translators do more than just try to make it make sense. They try to get the meaning across.

Jesus told them there two animals. He said bring (in Greek — if we want to know what He said in Aramaic we should check the Peshitta). “Bring” implies them, so it is translated that way.

Either way, your denial of the error is disengenuous.

I could reword it to ask if Jesus told them they would find one animal or two, and there is the error again!

So, Lon, you grasped for a straw and came up empty-handed.

 

[Lon]

Of course, this does eliminate the error.

I know. That is why I posted it. lain:

Jesus told them there two animals. He said bring (in Greek — if we want to know what He said in Aramaic we should check the Peshitta). “Bring” implies them, so it is translated that way.

Ah. So when the first track didn't work, we abandon that and desperately try for something else :think:

Gotcha. AT THE VERY LEAST, you know yourself, how woefully lacking your own education is as you grasp at straws. Good on you for that.

I've been VERY clear. This discussion is WELL ABOVE your paygrade. Next?

 

[2003cobra]

There it is right there Lon.

For if you look in Zec 9:9 the first donkey is male, (chamor), but that is not how Matthew reads. Matthew has the feminine gender autes. So the female donkey is tied, and the colt is with her, and he says to bring [it] the colt to him. Thus by comparing the passages we can see what is going on. Luke uses the exact same form of luo, (lusantes), but with auton (masculine).

Luke 19:30 W/H
30 λεγων υπαγετε εις την κατεναντι κωμην εν η εισπορευομενοι ευρησετε πωλον δεδεμενον εφ ον ουδεις πωποτε ανθρωπων εκαθισεν και λυσαντες αυτον αγαγετε

Matthew 21:2 W/H
2 λεγων αυτοις πορευεσθε εις την κωμην την κατεναντι υμων και ευθεως ευρησετε ονον δεδεμενην και πωλον μετ αυτης - λυσαντες αγαγετε μοι

This is why most honest translations will have them in italics ("bring them to me"), if that word is used at all, because it can be understood either way depending on how the reader decides to "hear" the text, (the context thus defines how it should be read). But in this case the context is not explicit enough so one must go back to the quote from where it speaks. Since the quote speaks of a male donkey the Matthew statement cannot mean bring them both because the donkey in the Matthew statement is female, (autes - αυτης).

Matthew 21:2 YLT
2 saying to them, 'Go on to the village over-against you, and immediately ye shall find an *** bound, and a colt with her--having loosed, bring ye to me;

In the Young's Literal Bible above it is more clear and fairly easy to be seen that he speaks of merely bringing the colt which was with the female donkey. In the Zechariah passage both a male and female donkey are mentioned. The first is a he-donkey, (chamor), while the colt is the son or foal of a she-donkey. It is therefore just as Matthew records it:

Zechariah 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon a he-donkey, [H2543 chamowr] even upon a colt, the foal of a she-donkey [H860 'athown].

The he-donkey is the colt, the son of a she-donkey, and was with its mother just as Matthew records, and the Master did not tell the disciples to bring both of them but rather to bring the colt. Once again, as even you have said a while back, Cobra is beffuddled over a mere translational issue and crying foul about something he does not understand because he did not dig deep enough before making his accusation against the scripture.

So, Daqq, now that you have chosen to reject all the English translations in search of a way to ignore the error, you are still stuck with Matthew saying Jesus told them that they would find two animals, while Mark and Luke say one.

So, daqq, did Jesus tell the disciples

“Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Unite and bring to me”

Or

“Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden; untie and bring to me”

One is a misquote of Jesus. One is an error.

 

[Lon]

disengenuous.

disingenuous (not picking, just not my favorite word anyway - It is mindreading which only God can do).

 

[2003cobra]

Yes, absolutely would refute that :chuckle: only 7, woe be unto those who made them. Perhaps the prophecy doesn't reach unintentional copy error. :think: The ONLY time a 'poor' Greek would be considered, is in quoting the O.T. The KJV, for example, is a direct quote from Greek word for word. It is not, however, to be considered 'poor English' OR 'greek' for that matter You love rumors and gossip, Cobra. Sad days all around, you look for support and know next to nothing of these of which you speak. YOU are committed IN ignorance.

It sounds like you don’t know Koine Greek, Lon.

Did you not learn that in seminary?

I refer you to Daniel Wallace’s introduction to Revelation, including:

First, in assessing the linguistic problem, Guthrie is dealing with Dionysius’ statement that whoever wrote the Apocalypse could not have authored the Gospel, because the Greek of the Apocalypse is so different, indeed, so bad (Dionysius calls it “barbarous”), while the Greek of the Fourth Gospel is relatively good Greek. Guthrie paints a uniform picture of modern opinion which is far from uniform: the Greek of the Fourth Gospel is, according to several scholars, very good Greek with almost no trace of Semitisms,6 and the solecistic Greek of the Apocalypse cannot be reduced, at all times, to intention.7


https://bible.org/seriespage/revelation-introduction-argument-and-outline