Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[2003cobra]

Watchman, I will add that the Oxford Annotated NRSV note for Zech 9:9 say:
Doneky, colt, in the style of Hebrew parallelism, a single animal (as in Gen 49.21; Jon 12.14-15) is meant here. In the New Testament, Mt 21.5-7 misunderstands and assumes two animals are meant...

 

[2003cobra]

I'm using the Interlinear;

he shall come to you righteous and being saved he humble and riding on donkey and on colt son of female donkeys.

= Two animals.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/zec9.pdf

I understand; I think the writing style used in Hebrew is not evident in a word-for-word translation to English. See post 1021

 

[daqq]

We are called to trust the Lord.

We are not called to trust man-made doctrines not found in scripture. Wouldn’t embracing a doctrine not found in scripture be relying on your own understanding?

You are not equating God with this false doctrine, are you?

So, I ask again:
Did Jesus tell the disciples to bring one animal or two?

Matthew 21:1 When they had come near Jerusalem and had reached Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, "Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, just say this, "The Lord needs them.' And he will send them immediately. "

Mark 11:1 When they were approaching Jerusalem, at Bethphage and Bethany, near the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples 2 and said to them, "Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden; untie it and bring it. 3 If anyone says to you, "Why are you doing this?' just say this, "The Lord needs it and will send it back here immediately.' "

Luke 19:29 When he had come near Bethphage and Bethany, at the place called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of the disciples, 30 saying, "Go into the village ahead of you, and as you enter it you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31 If anyone asks you, "Why are you untying it?' just say this, "The Lord needs it.' "


This error is unimportant and insignificant to the credibility of the gospel, but it does discredit the doctrine of inerrancy.

Either Jesus told them to bring two animals (as Matthew declares), or Jesus told them to bring one animal (as Mark and Luke declare).

I would appreciate your clear answer.

You are just tossing out as many things as you can think of to claim that the accounts are full of errors. Why should I even continue when I know you are only going to stick with your own mindset which tells you that you are correct no matter what anyone else has to say? You cannot resolve the conflict within you unless and until you begin to submit to the Testimony of the Messiah. Rather than explain these new passages I will give you a straight answer as plain and true as I know how: in Matthew a donkey and a colt are mentioned, while in Mark and Luke it is only a colt, and yes, I know they are all correct by the passage from which they quote in the Prophet and by the Testimony of Messiah in other places in the Gospel accounts.

 

[daqq]

Can't wait for you tell us all what 'your' canon 'The canon of daqq' consists of? oly:

Perhaps you still did not fully understand my answers. The debate has been raging for nearly two thousand years just as you yourself said: I do not need to give you my full canon, it is mine, what you do in your house is between you and the Master. I will not be answering to you, or a church organization, or anyone else besides the Judge, and you will not be answering to me.

:chuckle:

 

[2003cobra]

You are just tossing out as many things as you can think of to claim that the accounts are full of errors.

I have said repeatedly that there are a few minor errors.

The “full of errors” term is not mine.

Why should I even continue when I know you are only going to stick with your own mindset which tells you that you are correct no matter what anyone else has to say?

I have changed my mind before. I was raised in churches that taught the false doctrine of inerrancy.

So you can continue for several reasons, including:
1) To show me the light
2) To show others the light
3) To sharpen your proofs
4) To determine if you have been wrong and need to change.

You cannot resolve the conflict within you unless and until you begin to submit to the Testimony of the Messiah.

I have and I do.
Do not confuse rejecting a man-made false doctrine with anything bad. It is the right thing to do.
The Messiah gave no testimony on the doctrine of inerrancy.

Rather than explain these new passages I will give you a straight answer as plain and true as I know how: in Matthew a donkey and a colt are mentioned, while in Mark and Luke it is only a colt, and yes, I know they are all correct by the passage from which they quote in the Prophet and by the Testimony of Messiah in other places in the Gospel accounts.

You did not answer the question that I asked.

I did not ask what Jesus rode.

I asked what were the instructions to the disciples by Jesus. Did He tell them to fetch one animal or two?

That is the error I am pointing out: at least one of the gospels misquotes Jesus.

I would like a straight answer as plain and true as you know to the question in italics.

 

[daqq]

I have said repeatedly that there are a few minor errors.

The “full of errors” term is not mine.


I have changed my mind before. I was raised in churches that taught the false doctrine of inerrancy.

So you can continue for several reasons, including:
1) To show me the light
2) To show others the light
3) To sharpen your proofs
4) To determine if you have been wrong and need to change.

I have and I so.
Do not confuse rejecting a man-made false doctrine with anything bad. It is the right thing to do.



You did not answer the question that I asked.

I did not ask what Jesus rode.

I asked what were the instructions to the disciples by Jesus. Did He tell them to fetch one animal or two?

That is the error I am pointing out: at least one of the gospels misquotes Jesus.

I would like a straight answer as plain and true as you know to the question in italics.

Lol, yes, I did answer you, but you chose not to accept my answer. In Matthew both a donkey and a colt are mentioned. In Mark and Luke it is just a colt. How could I have been anymore clear than that? Why do you say I did not answer you?

Here is one for you that is nearly the same as what you have claimed is erroneous:

Matthew 16:5-7 KJV
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.

Mark 8:14-16 KJV
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.

Matthew says, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees", while Mark says, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod", but that does not mean that one of the Gospels "misquotes Jesus" as you falsely accuse in your own example. Again, the truth is revealed in the parables and Testimony of the Messiah: for the kingdom of the heavens is likened unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole lump was leavened, (Mat 13:33), and you are the lump, O man, whosoever you be, no exceptions to the rule. Therefore beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the Sadducees, and of Herod, just as the Master has forewarned you in these statements: for these things concern doctrine and hypocrisy in your doctrine, (Mat 16:12, Luk 12:1). You see? I believe every word that the Master says, and that all of his Testimony applies to myself and to my doctrine: why therefore do you not do the same? seeing that you claim to follow him? Be careful therefore how you hear what you hear, (Luk 8:18).

 

[2003cobra]

Lol, yes, I did answer you, but you chose not to accept my answer. In Matthew both a donkey and a colt are mentioned. In Mark and Luke it is just a colt. How could I have been anymore clear than that? Why do you say I did not answer you?

Here is one for you that is nearly the same as what you have claimed is erroneous:

Matthew 16:5-7 KJV
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.

Mark 8:14-16 KJV
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.

Matthew says, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees", while Mark says, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod", but that does not mean that one of the Gospels "misquotes Jesus" as you falsely accuse in your own example. Again, the truth is revealed in the parables and Testimony of the Messiah: for the kingdom of the heavens is likened unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole lump was leavened, (Mat 13:33), and you are the lump, O man, whosoever you be, no exceptions to the rule. Therefore beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the Sadducees, and of Herod, just as the Master has forewarned you in these statements: for these things concern doctrine and hypocrisy in your doctrine, (Mat 16:12, Luk 12:1). You see? I believe every word that the Master says, and that all of his Testimony applies to myself and to my doctrine: why therefore do you not do the same? seeing that you claim to follow him?

I am certain you know that you did not answer the question:
Did He tell them to fetch one animal or two?

These are possible answers:
1) Jesus told them to bring one animal.
2) Jesus told them to bring two animals.

You did not answer, and that is clear to any honest person.

 

[daqq]

I am certain you know that you did not answer the question:
Did He tell them to fetch one animal or two?

These are possible answers:
1) Jesus told them to bring one animal.
2) Jesus told them to bring two animals.

You did not answer, and that is clear to any honest person.

I will give you a straight answer as plain and true as I know how: in Matthew a donkey and a colt are mentioned, while in Mark and Luke it is only a colt, and yes, I know they are all correct by the passage from which they quote in the Prophet and by the Testimony of Messiah in other places in the Gospel accounts.

Lol, yes, I did answer you, but you chose not to accept my answer. In Matthew both a donkey and a colt are mentioned. In Mark and Luke it is just a colt. How could I have been anymore clear than that? Why do you say I did not answer you?

Again, in Matthew both a donkey and a colt are mentioned while in Mark and Luke only a colt is mentioned.

Be careful therefore how you hear what you hear, (Luk 8:18).

 

[daqq]

These are possible answers:
1) Jesus told them to bring one animal.
2) Jesus told them to bring two animals.

1 Corinthians 9:8-11 KJV
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Luke 13:12-15 KJV
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his *** [donkey] from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

Luke 14:2-6 KJV
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an *** [donkey] or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

So you see, I have no reason or compulsion to entertain your assumptions, or to answer you according to your carnal minded delusions and faulty interpretations of what is written in the texts, (which you are constantly misrepresenting in your erroneous conclusions, lol).

 

[Lon]

If you dismiss these obvious errors as “tricks” or “discrepancies” that you can’t admit are errors, then you have misused the education and capabilities that you have been given.

More pontifications lain: Naught but assertions. Point? Posturing. The inevitable outcome of your stance and lack.

Clinging to a man-made doctrine which is disproved by an honest reading of scripture is not appropriate use of God-given talents.

Repetition of assertion does not a good education make. It is really a stagnant education that does this. You cry foul as if a minster is not supposed to tell the truth if it is uncomfortable. Where do you get these clever-odd ideas? Your education IS lacking. It is evident.

For some odd reason, you were shocked. Don't pay mind to the messenger, it is the message: You are woefully lacking in the education of your self. Said better? Don't knock the delivery, read the message. Pay attention. It is time for school. -Lon

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Lol, yes, I did answer you, but you chose not to accept my answer. In Matthew both a donkey and a colt are mentioned. In Mark and Luke it is just a colt. How could I have been anymore clear than that? Why do you say I did not answer you?

Here is one for you that is nearly the same as what you have claimed is erroneous:

Matthew 16:5-7 KJV
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.

Mark 8:14-16 KJV
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.

Matthew says, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees", while Mark says, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod", but that does not mean that one of the Gospels "misquotes Jesus" as you falsely accuse in your own example. Again, the truth is revealed in the parables and Testimony of the Messiah: for the kingdom of the heavens is likened unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole lump was leavened, (Mat 13:33), and you are the lump, O man, whosoever you be, no exceptions to the rule. Therefore beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the Sadducees, and of Herod, just as the Master has forewarned you in these statements: for these things concern doctrine and hypocrisy in your doctrine, (Mat 16:12, Luk 12:1). You see? I believe every word that the Master says, and that all of his Testimony applies to myself and to my doctrine: why therefore do you not do the same? seeing that you claim to follow him? Be careful therefore how you hear what you hear, (Luk 8:18).

I think I've read somewhere that the Sadducees were more politically affiliated with Herod.

Over the years my hearing has evolved.

Most likely due to progressing through those generations you were talkin' about.

I know you have admitted not knowing everything so I'm not going to grill you to try and trap you.

Although there was a time I've been motivated that way.

I greatly enjoy finding spiritual truths and hate the times I know I'm not getting it.

Frustrating but hey, learning patience ain't a bad thing.

I appreciate you sharing what you've learned and I also read texts that are not considered canonical.

I'm not going to say you are right or wrong on those different folks, I'm a little slow sometimes and appreciate it when you go into more detail.

Just sayin'.

 

[Lon]

On those 4 questions, George and I are in 100% agreement. I was just asking daqq a question.

By the way, I am carrying out sentence. I am observing that errors exist.

You are making a judgment contrary to the facts, contrary to the witnesses, contrary to what the scriptures actually say. You are the juror passing judgment based on your presuppositions, not on the facts in evidence.

I'm more with Cobra than against his pointing out these 'discrepancies'. I find them interesting and helpful in learning new things that support the validity of the Bible. They are there for our benefit I beleive. To try and ignore them or say they are there to test our faith is a mistake. I try to only fear God, where as I do not fear questioning words written in a book (by imperfect men) that have been translated several times and for which the originals are lost and where the oldest surviving fragments don't all match up perfectly either. I am making a right judgement as Jesus taught us to do.

:nono: I'm the one that hung the jury and will not vote guilty. Innocence until proven guilty is the rule.
ANY shadow of doubt and you can no longer vote guilt. You'd be a biased juror on this and "couldn't" be even picked.
Forgive: Imho, you are wrongfully opinionated, as is Cobra.

 

[daqq]

I think I've read somewhere that the Sadducees were more politically affiliated with Herod.

Over the years my hearing has evolved.

Most likely due to progressing through those generations you were talkin' about.

I know you have admitted not knowing everything so I'm not going to grill you to try and trap you.

Although there was a time I've been motivated that way.

I greatly enjoy finding spiritual truths and hate the times I know I'm not getting it.

Frustrating but hey, learning patience ain't a bad thing.

I appreciate you sharing what you've learned and I also read texts that are not considered canonical.

I'm not going to say you are right or wrong on those different folks, I'm a little slow sometimes and appreciate it when you go into more detail.

Just sayin'.

Amen, I hear you, it seems to me from our conversations that the Master has brought you through many of the same trials thus far as myself; and patience is something that is absolutely necessary to be learned, some might even look at it as a command, (from such statements as, Mat 24:13, Mrk 13:13, Heb 10:35-39, Heb 12:7-8, Rev 13:9-10, and many more). Moreover, concerning Herod, do not forget that there is a sect called the Herodians, (Mat 22:16, Mrk 3:6, Mrk 12:13), so for purposes of typology and symbolism the leaven of Herod is equivalent to the leaven of the Herodians: thus you have three "beasts of man" in those three sects, (Pro 30:11-15, Dan 7:3-8, Hos 13:7-11, (and this is new covenant language also, Jer 31:27)), and the fourth is a conglomerate of them all, (Rev 13), and who shall live when El does this? When the fullness of the heathen have entered in, (for the kingdom of the heavens is likened unto a women who took leaven...), then shall the Deliverer come forth out of Zion: in the same manner shall all Israel be delivered, (no exceptions to the rule, each in his or her own appointed times, the time appointed of the Father, Gal 4:1-2, a day and hour which no one knows but the Father).

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

:nono: I'm the one that hung the jury and will not vote guilty. Innocence until proven guilty is the rule.
ANY shadow of doubt and you can no longer vote guilt. You'd be a biased juror on this and "couldn't" be even picked.
Forgive: Imho, you are wrongfully opinionated, as is Cobra.

It's an ongoing case.
The Lord calls all to be on the jury biased or not.

 

[Lon]

I am certain you know that you did not answer the question:
Did He tell them to fetch one animal or two?

These are possible answers:
1) Jesus told them to bring one animal.
2) Jesus told them to bring two animals.

You did not answer, and that is clear to any honest person.

Incorrect at best. Lie at worst. I saw CLEARLY that he DID answer you. EVERYONE reading saw him answer you.
In a nutshell, that if I have two apples I ALSO have one apple. He said it that clearly.

You've said the same of every poster on TOL. You CAN get an infraction for lying. Being corrected several times, persistence would be a purposeful lie.

 

[Lon]

It's an ongoing case.
The Lord calls all to be on the jury biased or not.

I think we are to be Bereans, but we aren't to be jury members. Those must be called.
I see a large difference between Berean and jury member/judge.
Cobra is self-appointed prosecution AND judge.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I think we are to be Bereans, but we aren't to be jury members. Those must be called.
I see a large difference between Berean and jury member/judge.

Yeah that nagged at me as I was posting.

The King's word is law.

As to your rep to me, I feel that way too, sometimes.

 

[Lon]

Yeah that nagged at me as I was posting.

The King's word is law.

As to your rep to me, I feel that way too, sometimes.

I think Watchman partly right: a puzzle to figure out and wonder about. A reason to jump to 'error?' :nono: It 'looks' like, doesn't by any necessity have to be. That is going too far. If I am called for jury duty, I'm going to deliberate a LOT longer than that! (I won't be, God handles His own, just sayin' it'd be extraordinary by a long stretch)

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I think Watchman partly right: a puzzle to figure out and wonder about. A reason to jump to 'error?' :nono: It 'looks' like, doesn't by any necessity have to be. That is going too far. If I am called for jury duty, I'm going to deliberate a LOT longer than that! (I won't be, God handles His own, just sayin' it'd be extraordinary by a long stretch)

That's good.
Sometimes we have to take a second look to see if we are tending to lean on our own understanding, which is a natural thing to do.

 

[George Affleck]

George,
It would have been nice if you were more involved in the earlier errors we discussed.

In particular, the error in what Jesus said to the Apostles that he sent to fetch an animal or two animals for the triumphal entry. At least one of the gospels misquoted Jesus.

Thanks for being deluded into thinking I have any ideas worth considering...lol. I can only participate as I have time. Seeing you have stated your concept of the scriptures in post 979, I should give you mine.

I hold to a different idea of inspiration than is common today. The proper doctrine is not taught as it once was and, unfortunately, we have fallen into bad habits. I do not believe the scriptures themselves were or are inspired. They are inerrant, but not inspired. By that I mean that God did not breathe, or somehow infuse, truth into man's words. They are inerrant for a different reason. They are inerrant because they are God's words, phrases and sentences; not man's.

All scripture is given by the process of inspiration (theopneustos - God breathed) 2Tim 3:16KJV. This process included God, the Holy Spirit, inspiring holy men chosen at different times to receive and record what they were supernaturally moved to write 2 Pet 1:21KJV.

Then God preserved those specific words. I think I heard someone say that because the originals are not in existence, that militates against the doctrine of inerrancy. I see it the other way around. God, in His wisdom, preserved the originals in the many copies that do exist and are in agreement. An original can easily be destroyed or damaged. And, if they had been preserved, knowing our penchant to revere physical artifacts, they would have been worshiped as relics and fought over.

So it is the men, who wrote the scriptures, who were inspired; not their words. And the Holy Spirit so captivated their human spirits that He was able to use their humanity to deposit the Written Word in the same way that the Living Word entered this world through Mary.