ECT Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

[Danoh]

DANOH said Israel's fall was just before Saul's conversion. He's pointing to an event it seems, not a series of rejections. That's why I'd like him to clarify...


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In the following Israel was concluded having continued in the UNcircumcision of their forefathers...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Who was there with them?

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

The old "it's on, here; watch my coat."

We then read...

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Saul was in UNcircumcision with his nation...spiritually.

For the same blasphemy of his nation against the Spirit's witness in those that Paul was now persecuting.

And worse in his case...

Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Remember what the Spirit had said thru Stephen?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Later, when Paul wrote Romans, he related the following...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

It is the same judgment against them as Stephen's - they have been found in UNcircumcision.

Paul then adds...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But for their believing remnant, Israel was concluded UNcircumcision.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And Paul was one of them, when the Lord stopped him on his way to Damascus to continue in his blasphemy.

He saved him after he and Israel had been concluded UNcircumcision...spiritually.

He then sent him out with the very gospel by which saved him...when he was in spiritual UNcircumcision...

"The gospel of the Uncircumcision."

Which he then took to both lost Jews (spiritual UNcircumcision) and lost Gentiles (UNcircumcision in the flesh).

Acts 10 was actually a means of a bridge as a witness that Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision...was also of God...

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

 

[SimpleMan77]

In the following Israel was concluded having continued in the UNcircumcision of their forefathers...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Who was there with them?

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

The old "it's on, here; watch my coat."

We then read...

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Saul was in UNcircumcision with his nation...spiritually.

For the same blasphemy of his nation against the Spirit's witness in those that Paul was now persecuting.

And worse in his case...

Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Remember what the Spirit had said thru Stephen?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Later, when Paul wrote Romans, he related the following...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

It is the same judgment against them as Stephen's - they have been found in UNcircumcision.

Paul then adds...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But for their believing remnant, Israel was concluded UNcircumcision.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And Paul was one of them, when the Lord stopped him on his way to Damascus to continue in his blasphemy.

He saved him after he and Israel had been concluded UNcircumcision...spiritually.

He then sent him out with the very gospel by which saved him...when he was in spiritual UNcircumcision...

"The gospel of the Uncircumcision."

Which he then took to both lost Jews (spiritual UNcircumcision) and lost Gentiles (UNcircumcision in the flesh).

Acts 10 was actually a means of a bridge as a witness that Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision...was also of God...

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

It will take me a little while to read and digest all of that. I really do want to understand it more, so I will look at it.


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[DAN P]

Acts 3:20 simply states that Jesus will be in heaven until the restitution of all things. I agree that the 3 verses mentioned highlight the Gospel, in Paul's words, is "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". That isn't speaking of dispensations, it is speaking to the fact that the Jews were still (and are still) the chosen people of God. We are grafted into the stock of their vine.

3 points: 1)I don't see any scripture saying that Jesus would have come back if the Jewish nation had received Him. He ascended, and 120 was the number of faithful followers he had. I'd venture to say at the stoning of Stephen there were 10s or 100s of thousands of Christians. The rejection by the ruling Jews was fanning the flames of revival.

2) There is no point shown in scripture there is a change from Jewish believers being held to the law and then being released from it. It was a gradual transition, starting with the evangelization of the Samaritans, then the conversion of Cornelius. You are saying it was Stephen's death that triggered it. Where does it say that in scripture?

3)and most importantly, the three verses mentioned span a lot of years, with the last one coming just before Paul's death. At that point, he was still reaching to the Jews first.

The gradual change from law to Grace was embraced more quickly by some then others, with Paul leading the charge, but it was already happening well before he was converted.



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Hi and here is what it means in Acts 3:20 , And He MAY SEND Jesus Christ , the One having been Proclaimed BEFORE to you !!

It is obvious that the CONTEXT is Israel !!

The first verb HE SHALL SEND is in the ARORIST TENSE which put it in Jesus time period !!

It is also in the ACTIVE VOICE and that means that the the subject is producing the action of coming back !!

But is it also in the SUBJECTIVE MOOD of possibility , and that will depend IF Israel repents !!

The second verb is WHICH BEFORE WAS PREACHED toyou is in the PERFECT TENSE and just means that he will come back to saved Israel and Rom 11:26 is just one of those verses !!

dan p

 

[patrick jane]

It is a trait among the MADs I associate with, outside of TOL.


I like that.

If you don't like it here, leave -

 

[meshak]

No one is interested in my comment?

 

[meshak]

Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

This is what most protestants believe.

they don't believe your works matter even though Jesus says we will be judged according to what we have done.

And most of them are not hyper Calvinists.

 

[jamie]

The gradual change from law to Grace was embraced more quickly by some then others, with Paul leading the charge, but it was already happening well before he was converted.

The Hebrews had an annual observance of God's grace.

Exodus 12:42 NASB It is a night to be observed for the LORD for having brought them out from the land of Egypt; this night is for the LORD, to be observed by all the sons of Israel throughout their generations.​

 

[Danoh]

And most of them are not hyper Calvinists.

Hey Meshak; despite our hugely different doctrinal understandings; I hope you have been well.

Say, what ever happened about that hat you lost? Did you ever find it, or get another one?

Be well.

 

[meshak]

Hey Meshak; despite our hugely different doctrinal understandings; I hope you have been well.

Say, what ever happened about that hat you lost? Did you ever find it, or get another one?

Be well.

My old hat is gone and I got another ones.

what do you say about the topic?

 

[SimpleMan77]

And most of them are not hyper Calvinists.

It is completely consistent with scriptural grace to say that disobedience will cause someone to miss heaven. Jesus said that he'd say "depart from me, you that work iniquity".

He didn't say "depart from me, you that I chose to torment for eternity regardless of your choices".

If Jesus created them to be sinners, why pull them up to His throne to look at them one last time? Just to get one last look at the ones He chose to torment with everlasting fire?

Obedience has everything to do with our salvation. We can't obey any part of Scripture without faith and have it do us any good. But neither can we have faith without obedience, and it be genuine faith.


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[Crucible]

Believing is not a work of one's own, it is a work that God's providence ordains. He locks and loosens the gate.
Speaking of which, it's funny that so many look at Jesus' statement to Peter, and in rejecting the Catholic notion of it, end up rejecting it altogether because they don't want to come to Protestant predestination.

They end up in theological limbo, and that's why there are thousands of sects all with problematic doctrines

 

[glorydaz]

Vocalizing the words "I believe" = a work!

Confessing Jesus verbally is a "work". Consciously choosing to change your belief system is a work. Anything that doesn't happen subconsciously is a "work".

Well, I "subconsciously" believe it's raining outside. So stating a fact isn't any sort of a work that I've ever heard of. I was convinced by the rain running down my face. So who did the work in fact. Nature...the God of Creation. Surely not me.

 

[Crucible]

If Jesus created them to be sinners, why pull them up to His throne to look at them one last time? Just to get one last look at the ones He chose to torment with everlasting fire?

God didn't predestine them to damnation- they are rather destined by their own depravity, whom God shut out according to His providence.

And
The last judgement is something intended for the elect to witness, as the saints recognize the wicked and the wicked recognize the saints- it's retribution and closure.

 

[Lighthouse]

You have an imperfect understanding of faith. Paul, as great as he was, had a war going on inside of him, and taught that the carnal mind is enmity with the spiritual mind. If your fleshy mind never has to be crucified by your conscious choices, I submit to you that maybe it is the one at the wheel of your life.

I have already been crucified with Christ. You need to stop viewing your flesh as though it were alive.

I understand Romans 7 perfectly well, thank you.

Faith is not based on indisputable proof, even though God at times gives us proof. Abraham struggled with God's silence and seemed to think God needed help performing His promises (Ishmael). Some "died in the faith", and never received the undeniable proof.

I didn't say faith was based on indisputable proof. It is proof itself. And there is a reason for that. What you're describing is belief; not faith. Faith is deeper than mere belief. I don't simply believe God loves me; I know He does. I don't simply believe Christ died for my sins, rose again, etc.; I know he did. I know it's true. And it is as a result of this that I have faith that God's promises are true. In spite of the fact that I have not seen them come yet to fruition. I didn't choose to believe; I can't help myself.

According to Paul, that mystery was also "Christ in you, the hope of Glory". That is the same Holy Ghost that Jesus was referring to when he said "I am with you, but I shall be in you", and the same message that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (concerning the promise and gift of the Holy Ghost).

All 3 preaching the same mystery.

Saith the Pie-man.

If you don't like it here, leave -

Not at all his intended meaning, PJ. Stop it.

 

[SimpleMan77]

In the following Israel was concluded having continued in the UNcircumcision of their forefathers...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Who was there with them?

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

The old "it's on, here; watch my coat."

We then read...

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Saul was in UNcircumcision with his nation...spiritually.

For the same blasphemy of his nation against the Spirit's witness in those that Paul was now persecuting.

And worse in his case...

Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Remember what the Spirit had said thru Stephen?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Later, when Paul wrote Romans, he related the following...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

It is the same judgment against them as Stephen's - they have been found in UNcircumcision.

Paul then adds...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But for their believing remnant, Israel was concluded UNcircumcision.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And Paul was one of them, when the Lord stopped him on his way to Damascus to continue in his blasphemy.

He saved him after he and Israel had been concluded UNcircumcision...spiritually.

He then sent him out with the very gospel by which saved him...when he was in spiritual UNcircumcision...

"The gospel of the Uncircumcision."

Which he then took to both lost Jews (spiritual UNcircumcision) and lost Gentiles (UNcircumcision in the flesh).

Acts 10 was actually a means of a bridge as a witness that Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision...was also of God...

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

There are some assumptions in your application of Scripture that just aren't correct.

1) God's rejection of Israel as a nation happened much earlier than Acts 7&8, it happened once the rulers fully decided to kill Jesus

Matthew 23:37-39
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

At this point, just prior to Calvary, the events that would lead to His death had been put into motion by the leadership of the nation. Jesus makes the statement that they will not see him again (in a redemptive capacity) until they could look at the preachers coming in His name and embrace them.

2) God had always intended to bring the Gentiles into the new covenant through the cross. After Matthew 23, show me one place that Jesus made a statement concerning this being offered to the Jews only. On the contrary, he refers to the gospel being preached among all nations.

3) from that point, the Gospel has always been, and still is today, "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". That was true even in Acts 28:28, toward the end of Paul's life. It took a little while for the prejudices of the apostles to be worked on, but it started immediately after Jesus' ascension. He sent them to Samaritans, then Gentiles, and the Gentiles were before Paul's had any other revelation other than Jesus is Christ.

The transition away from elements of the law and into grace was a process, not an event, and Paul was an essential player.

4) Ezekiel 37 thru the end of the chapter is a beautiful allegory of what happened throughout Jesus' ministry, where he put the spiritual boundaries of His kingdom back where he intended them to be from the beginning. "You have heard... but I say to you" - over and over.

Jesus confirmed this when he stood and cried in John 7:38-39

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Jesus was referencing a particular scripture, Ezekiel 47:1-12. Waters flowing out of the temple, which is the people of God. It's a powerful allegory of everything God did in and through Christ and then the church.

The waters were the gift of the Holy Ghost, and Peter said God gave the "same gift" to the Gentiles. It's important to note that the water is completely symbolic. So is the tree of life and the fish. So is the temple. So is the priesthood. So is the land.


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[Danoh]

There are some assumptions in your application of Scripture that just aren't correct.

1) God's rejection of Israel as a nation happened much earlier than Acts 7&8, it happened once the rulers fully decided to kill Jesus

Matthew 23:37-39
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

At this point, just prior to Calvary, the events that would lead to His death had been put into motion by the leadership of the nation. Jesus makes the statement that they will not see him again (in a redemptive capacity) until they could look at the preachers coming in His name and embrace them.

2) God had always intended to bring the Gentiles into the new covenant through the cross. After Matthew 23, show me one place that Jesus made a statement concerning this being offered to the Jews only. On the contrary, he refers to the gospel being preached among all nations.

3) from that point, the Gospel has always been, and still is today, "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". That was true even in Acts 28:28, toward the end of Paul's life. It took a little while for the prejudices of the apostles to be worked on, but it started immediately after Jesus' ascension. He sent them to Samaritans, then Gentiles, and the Gentiles were before Paul's had any other revelation other than Jesus is Christ.

The transition away from elements of the law and into grace was a process, not an event, and Paul was an essential player.

4) Ezekiel 37 thru the end of the chapter is a beautiful allegory of what happened throughout Jesus' ministry, where he put the spiritual boundaries of His kingdom back where he intended them to be from the beginning. "You have heard... but I say to you" - over and over.

Jesus confirmed this when he stood and cried in John 7:38-39

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Jesus was referencing a particular scripture, Ezekiel 47:1-12. Waters flowing out of the temple, which is the people of God. It's a powerful allegory of everything God did in and through Christ and then the church.

The waters were the gift of the Holy Ghost, and Peter said God gave the "same gift" to the Gentiles. It's important to note that the water is completely symbolic. So is the tree of life and the fish. So is the temple. So is the priesthood. So is the land.


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To repeat what I began my above post with - "In the following Israel was concluded having continued in the UNcircumcision of their forefathers..."

And this...after the Son prayed for their forgiveness, but the Spirit then offered it in early Acts.

Consider that you are thus off...twice.

As are all your other above points.

All are based on...your...reading into a thing...and...your...assumptions...from there.

 

[SimpleMan77]

To repeat what I began my above post with - "In the following Israel was concluded having continued in the UNcircumcision of their forefathers..."

And this...after the Son prayed for their forgiveness, but the Spirit then offered it in early Acts.

Consider that you are thus off...twice.

As are all your other above points.

All are based on...your...reading into a thing...and...your...assumptions...from there.

You'd be wrong there.

Stephen also prayed for their forgiveness in the exact manner that Jesus did. Paul lets us know that people can forgive things "in the person of Christ" (2 Corinthians 2:10).

That is because the nation had been rejected prior to Calvary, but the heart of God is forgiveness toward those doing horrible things against Him (both personally, as in Christ, and when he takes actions against His church as being against Him).

The Spirit continued to offer forgiveness to the Jews individually and as a people first (see last chapter of Acts, near the end of Paul's life), and that continues to this day. The Jews are still a chosen people. However everyone must to God through the door - the way, truth and life.


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[Danoh]

You'd be wrong there.

Stephen also prayed for their forgiveness in the exact manner that Jesus did. Paul lets us know that people can forgive things "in the person of Christ" (2 Corinthians 2:10).

That is because the nation had been rejected prior to Calvary, but the heart of God is forgiveness toward those doing horrible things against Him (both personally, as in Christ, and when he takes actions against His church as being against Him).

The Spirit continued to offer forgiveness to the Jews individually and as a people first (see last chapter of Acts, near the end of Paul's life), and that continues to this day. The Jews are still a chosen people. However everyone must to God through the door - the way, truth and life.


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Am well aware Israel was Lo Ami in MML&J.

He came to fulfill Hosea's 1 and 2's Prophecy.

To call them His people; Malachi 3; Mark 1; etc.

And nope; Christ's prayer to the Father on their behalf was not the same as Stephen's.

Christ's had been a prayer for their forgiveness in His Role on their behalf as their Great High Priest after the order of Mechezidic...

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

In contrast, Stephen's had been in his concern for his nation in his prayer as a follower of Christ on behalf of those who injured him for his having called them what they were.

Stephen's is...a remarkable testimony of the power of...dare I say it...grace working in an Israelite...prior to Paul...

It is a remarkable testimony of its' power to enable one to "love your enemies" - when - grace is submitted to over one's own inward nonsense.

Prophesied Grace...in action...

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mystery Grace...in action...

Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Meaning what?

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Anyway, thanks for the stimulating challenge.

Or as...

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17

In this, opposition can be a good thing.

Where one is inclined, not so much too neef to prove one is right; but to think on a thing another asserts, no matter how oppossed anyway.

With, or without, the other side's good intent.

It is then that opposition ends up nevertheless working...for good.

It is then that the following becomes more than mere words on a page...

Philippians 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

It is then that the Word begins to work "in you that believe" it.

So take heart, bro. Opposition is par for the course.

MAD based posters like, say, Steko, or STP, or Right Divider, or Lighthouse, or some of the others - do yourself a favor and welcome what to you might appear their opposition to your views...I believe they mean you well...

I believe you mean us well...

The doctrinal thing anyone of them could easily assert is the actual issue.

That out of the way - back to our spit ball fight, bro :chuckle:

 

[SimpleMan77]

Am well aware Israel was Lo Ami in MML&J.

He came to fulfill Hosea's 1 and 2's Prophecy.

To call them His people; Malachi 3; Mark 1; etc.

And nope; Christ's prayer to the Father on their behalf was not the same as Stephen's.

Christ's had been a prayer for their forgiveness in His Role on their behalf as their Great High Priest after the order of Mechezidic...

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

In contrast, Stephen's had been in his concern for his nation in his prayer as a follower of Christ on behalf of those who injured him for his having called them what they were.

Stephen's is...a remarkable testimony of the power of...dare I say it...grace working in an Israelite...prior to Paul...

It is a remarkable testimony of its' power to enable one to "love your enemies" - when - grace is submitted to over one's own inward nonsense.

Prophesied Grace...in action...

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mystery Grace...in action...

Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Meaning what?

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Anyway, thanks for the stimulating challenge.

Or as...

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17

In this, opposition can be a good thing.

Where one is inclined, not so much too neef to prove one is right; but to think on a thing another asserts, no matter how oppossed anyway.

With, or without, the other side's good intent.

It is then that opposition ends up nevertheless working...for good.

It is then that the following becomes more than mere words on a page...

Philippians 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

It is then that the Word begins to work "in you that believe" it.

So take heart, bro. Opposition is par for the course.

MAD based posters like, say, Steko, or STP, or Right Divider, or Lighthouse, or some of the others - do yourself a favor and welcome what to you might appear their opposition to your views...I believe they mean you well...

I believe you mean us well...

The doctrinal thing anyone of them could easily assert is the actual issue.

That out of the way - back to our spit ball fight, bro :chuckle:

I've come too far and have too much ahead of me to get mad and nasty over doctrinal issues. I love it when someone has a clear answer as to why they think I am wrong, because it challenges me to grow in my understanding.

I don't wish to "be right", I wish to have the right understanding of Scripture. There is a big difference. I also desire to help others in the same regard.

There are times in these forums that I get challenged on things that I have always taken for granted, and that makes me question why I believe something. That always leads to either a better understanding of my position, or at times it leads to me fine-tuning or even completely changing on an issue.

I appreciate the spirit of your response. I'll respond to the substance of your reply when I get a little more time.


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[glorydaz]

I didn't say faith was based on indisputable proof. It is proof itself. And there is a reason for that. What you're describing is belief; not faith. Faith is deeper than mere belief. I don't simply believe God loves me; I know He does. I don't simply believe Christ died for my sins, rose again, etc.; I know he did. I know it's true. And it is as a result of this that I have faith that God's promises are true. In spite of the fact that I have not seen them come yet to fruition. I didn't choose to believe; I can't help myself.

Nicely done, Lighthouse.

I highlighted this because it's so well stated. :thumb: