ECT Saying we are saved "by grace alone" can only mean hyper-Calvinism

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SimpleMan77

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Vocalizing the words "I believe" = a work!

Confessing Jesus verbally is a "work". Consciously choosing to change your belief system is a work. Anything that doesn't happen subconsciously is a "work".

If you're not a hyper-Calvinist who believes that you are born to be saved or lost, regardless of if you ever obey one syllable of the Bible, where do you draw the line in trying to get away from "justification by works".

Is that line drawn at rejecting the requirement to obey all of the Mosaic law? Is it rejecting any kind of the slightest work? Is it left up to us to define? Or maybe obedience to the teachings of the New Testament is "obedience" and not "works".

If someone sees the commandment to be baptized, and rejects obedience to it, can they be justified by faith while refusing obedience? If they refuse to confess with their mouth, but believe are they justified. If they refuse to consciously change their beliefs to accept the Gospel are they justified?


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intojoy

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SimpleMan77 said:
Works=vocalizing the words "I believe".

Confessing Jesus verbally is a "work". Consciously choosing to change your belief system is a work. Anything that doesn't happen subconsciously is a "work".

If you're not a hyper-Calvinist who believes that you are born to be saved or lost, regardless of if you ever obey one syllable of the Bible, where do you draw the line in trying to get away from "justification by works".

Is that line drawn at rejecting the requirement to obey all of the Mosaic law? Is it rejecting any kind of the slightest work? Is it left up to us to define? Or maybe obedience to the teachings of the New Testament is "obedience" and not "works".

If someone sees the commandment to be baptized, and rejects obedience to it, can they be justified by faith while refusing obedience? If they refuse to confess with their mouth, but believe are they justified. If they refuse to consciously change their beliefs to accept the Gospel are they justified?


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Faith is not a work because of divine enablement.
 
Lighthouse

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SimpleMan77 said:
Works=vocalizing the words "I believe".

Confessing Jesus verbally is a "work". Consciously choosing to change your belief system is a work. Anything that doesn't happen subconsciously is a "work".

If you're not a hyper-Calvinist who believes that you are born to be saved or lost, regardless of if you ever obey one syllable of the Bible, where do you draw the line in trying to get away from "justification by works".

Is that line drawn at rejecting the requirement to obey all of the Mosaic law? Is it rejecting any kind of the slightest work? Is it left up to us to define? Or maybe obedience to the teachings of the New Testament is "obedience" and not "works".

If someone sees the commandment to be baptized, and rejects obedience to it, can they be justified by faith while refusing obedience? If they refuse to confess with their mouth, but believe are they justified. If they refuse to consciously change their beliefs to accept the Gospel are they justified?
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You weren't kidding when you called yourself simple, were you?

P.S.
What if they're incapable of confessing with their mouth?

P.P.S.
No one consciously chooses to change their beliefs. When proof is offered and undeniable there is no choice.
 
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SimpleMan77

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Lighthouse said:
You weren't kidding when you called yourself simple, were you?

P.S.
What if they're incapable of confessing with their mouth?

P.P.S.
No one consciously chooses to change their beliefs. When proof is offered and undeniable there is no choice.
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I am simple - I simply believe the simple truth of Scripture...

Believing (having faith) isn't as "simple" as you are making it out to be. If it was simply "show someone undeniable proof and they'll never have another question or doubt" we'd not be talking about God. He's unseen, so it takes faith in something you can't see, and many times that includes choosing to keep believing when it feels like the visible is overpowering the invisible. That is why Paul said "fight the good fight of faith".

Every hero of Hebrews 11 had to choose the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". There is record of many of them "against hope believing in hope". Don't tell me that isn't a choice.

Obedience requires us to do all we can, and trust God to do what we can't.


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Lighthouse

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SimpleMan77 said:
I am simple - I simply believe the simple truth of Scripture...
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Too simple to even get the joke.:doh:

Believing (having faith) isn't as "simple" as you are making it out to be. If it was simply "show someone undeniable proof and they'll never have another question or doubt" we'd not be talking about God. He's unseen, so it takes faith in something you can't see, and many times that includes choosing to keep believing when it feels like the visible is overpowering the invisible. That is why Paul said "fight the good fight of faith".

Every hero of Hebrews 11 had to choose the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". There is record of many of them "against hope believing in hope". Don't tell me that isn't a choice.

Obedience requires us to do all we can, and trust God to do what we can't.
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I believe because I can't disbelieve. I have faith because I trust, and I trust because I have never been betrayed.

Why is faith the evidence of things unseen?

To paraphrase someone else whose name I do not know, "I do not believe in the wind because I have seen the wind; I believe in the wind because I have seen [and felt] the effects of the wind."
 
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SimpleMan77

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Lighthouse said:
Too simple to even get the joke.:doh:


I believe because I can't disbelieve. I have faith because I trust, and I trust because I have never been betrayed.

Why is faith the evidence of things unseen?

To paraphrase someone else whose name I do not know, "I do not believe in the wind because I have seen the wind; I believe in the wind because I have seen [and felt] the effects of the wind."
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Not "too simple to get the joke", just not willing to take the bait. Resorting to insults is typically a sign that someone is losing the debate... Don't mistake my unwillingness to match insult with insult for something it isn't.

Why did Paul instruct the Philippian jailor to "believe on the Lord"? There was a significant amount of proof (the earthquake, no one escaping), but I daresay that it was not "undeniable proof". I have watched people take proof every bit as impressive and chalk it up to chance, nature, etc. God never gives us "undeniable proof" - we can always explain it away if we choose to.

At that moment the jailor was presented with a choice - to believe, or not to believe. He consciously chose to believe, and the rest is history. Paul plainly teaches that faith and hope which are seen are no longer faith and hope.


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Lighthouse

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SimpleMan77 said:
Not "too simple to get the joke", just not willing to take the bait. Resorting to insults is typically a sign that someone is losing the debate... Don't mistake my unwillingness to match insult with insult for something it isn't.
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I wasn't baiting you. Nor was I expecting you to return the volley. I was trying to explain your ignorance to you. Which is something of which you have quite a lot.

Why did Paul instruct the Philippian jailor jailer to "believe on the Lord"? There was a significant amount of proof (the earthquake, no one escaping), but I daresay that it was not "undeniable proof". I have watched people take proof every bit as impressive and chalk it up to chance, nature, etc. God never gives us "undeniable proof" - we can always explain it away if we choose to.
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Then I submit that you have never met Christ, and do not know Him.

At that moment the jailor jailer was presented with a choice - to believe, or not to believe. He consciously chose to believe, and the rest is history. Paul plainly teaches that faith and hope which are seen are no longer faith and hope.
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I never said anything about seeing. Your assumptions are impeding your understanding.
 
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Lighthouse said:
You weren't kidding when you called yourself simple, were you?

P.S.
What if they're incapable of confessing with their mouth?

P.P.S.
No one consciously chooses to change their beliefs. When proof is offered and undeniable there is no choice.
Click to expand...


Salvation is not a set of beliefs.

LA
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
Lighthouse said:
I wasn't baiting you. Nor was I expecting you to return the volley. I was trying to explain your ignorance to you. Which is something of which you have quite a lot.


Then I submit that you have never met Christ, and do not know Him.


I never said anything about seeing. Your assumptions are impeding your understanding.
Click to expand...

You have an imperfect understanding of faith. Paul, as great as he was, had a war going on inside of him, and taught that the carnal mind is enmity with the spiritual mind. If your fleshy mind never has to be crucified by your conscious choices, I submit to you that maybe it is the one at the wheel of your life.

Faith is not based on indisputable proof, even though God at times gives us proof. Abraham struggled with God's silence and seemed to think God needed help performing His promises (Ishmael). Some "died in the faith", and never received the undeniable proof.


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SimpleMan77

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CatholicCrusader said:
Not true sir. I too say we are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone. And I can assure you I would never dream of embracing the heresy of Calvinism.


Not likely. That man couldn't answer a phone if it was strapped to his pointy head.
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If you read my post in its entirety I am pointing out that many who believe we are saved by "grace plus nothing" don't really believe that way.

Many will say "you must accept Christ". That is a decision that has to be made - an action (a work).

Most will say "you have to believe". Again, this is a choice of something you DO. The word is an "action verb" in elementary English class, and in every dictionary you check.

Calvin was at least honest. He followed Grace Without Works to its only logical conclusion, that God alone does the choosing, no matter what we do, say, believe, or choose.

The correct biblical understanding of Grace is that we owe an un-payable debt that carries a sentence of the eternal wrath of God, but God in His grace writes out a check and holds it out to, saying "if you'll take this check it will pay off your complete debt, and take away the complete punishment of the debt". Our part is to take it.

If someone asks "how was your debt paid", can we say "I reached out my hand, took the check, and handed it to my debtor - I earned it"? Absolutely not.

Can we get the benefit of His generosity without obedience? Absolutely not

Those two concepts are biblical and not mutually exclusive.


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DAN P

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
Vocalizing the words "I believe" = a work!

Confessing Jesus verbally is a "work". Consciously choosing to change your belief system is a work. Anything that doesn't happen subconsciously is a "work".

If you're not a hyper-Calvinist who believes that you are born to be saved or lost, regardless of if you ever obey one syllable of the Bible, where do you draw the line in trying to get away from "justification by works".

Is that line drawn at rejecting the requirement to obey all of the Mosaic law? Is it rejecting any kind of the slightest work? Is it left up to us to define? Or maybe obedience to the teachings of the New Testament is "obedience" and not "works".

If someone sees the commandment to be baptized, and rejects obedience to it, can they be justified by faith while refusing obedience? If they refuse to confess with their mouth, but believe are they justified. If they refuse to consciously change their beliefs to accept the Gospel are they justified?


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Hi and Rom 16:26 ENDS this way , Having been made known to all the GENTILES for OBEDIENCE of FAITH !!

How is that seem to you ??

dan p
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
DAN P said:
Hi and Rom 16:26 ENDS this way , Having been made known to all the GENTILES for OBEDIENCE of FAITH !!

How is that seem to you ??

dan p
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God called Abraham in his grace, and Abraham believed and obeyed.

Without belief he wouldn't have obeyed, and without obedience he would never been included in anyone's list of faith-ful men.

In fact, without obedience his faith would have been dead, and dead faith is no faith.

So true faith cannot exist without obedience. The obedience of faith is the same as the faith of obedience. Paul's writings are full of instructions of things we are to do and believe. Both "do" and "believe" are action verbs. Works. Obedience.


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D

DAN P

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
God called Abraham in his grace, and Abraham believed and obeyed.

Without belief he wouldn't have obeyed, and without obedience he would never been included in anyone's list of faith-ful men.

In fact, without obedience his faith would have been dead, and dead faith is no faith.

So true faith cannot exist without obedience. The obedience of faith is the same as the faith of obedience. Paul's writings are full of instructions of things we are to do and believe. Both "do" and "believe" are action verbs. Works. Obedience.


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Hi and this FAITH is to believe that gospel that Paul preached , THE MYSTERY in Rom 25 and 26 and the 12 apostles NEVER preached the MYSTERY !!

dan p
 
Nang

Nang

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SimpleMan77 said:
God called Abraham in his grace, and Abraham believed and obeyed.

Without belief he wouldn't have obeyed, and without obedience he would never been included in anyone's list of faith-ful men.

In fact, without obedience his faith would have been dead, and dead faith is no faith.

So true faith cannot exist without obedience. The obedience of faith is the same as the faith of obedience. Paul's writings are full of instructions of things we are to do and believe. Both "do" and "believe" are action verbs. Works. Obedience.


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Obedience reveals evidence of a changed heart. Obedience is proof of genuine faith.

Obedience serves the moral standards and righteousness of God. Faithful believers live holy lives because they serve a new Master who is holy.

Obedience is not a means to meriting or earning salvation. Christians obey the will and word of God because they have already been raised to new spiritual life by His grace, alone.
 
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