Add Nick M (modalist)
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Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)
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keypurr
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Its way over your head GM.
Add THall non-Trinitarian
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Add SimpleMan77
SimpleMan77
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Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)
I'll gladly take my place wherever truth puts me. And I didn't even really have to add commentary to get here - I simply quoted the Hebrew translation of the Shema and pointed out that is said that God is one.
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I'll gladly take my place wherever truth puts me. And I didn't even really have to add commentary to get here - I simply quoted the Hebrew translation of the Shema and pointed out that is said that God is one.
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No, you went beyond that and said that the Shema proves that GOD is one person.
Actually, the Shema, by its use of the word 'echad', implies a compound unity.
SimpleMan77
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Only one verse in the Bible refers to God as a person, and it's singular.
Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is "the express image of His person" (person, singular).
One invisible person, and one visible image of that person, Jesus
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The word 'person' is a poor translation of the Greek word 'hupostasis', which in translations other than the KJV is translated 'being', 'nature', or 'essence', which is more appropriate.
I believe that the use of the word 'person' in KJV Hebrews 1:3 comes from an over zealous use of terminology from Nicea by the KJV translators.
SimpleMan77
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Ok, so Jesus is the visible image of an invisible "being". Makes my point stronger I think.
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....which would agree with:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,
...but still doesn't prove that GOD is one person.
SimpleMan77
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What if I told you that the Father said "I am God all by myself - I made the world by myself. There's no one else beside me, with be, before me, after me, or like me. I won't give my glory to anyone else"?
What if the Bible unequivocally said that was the Father saying those things?
Would that convince you?
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We've already discussed Isaiah.
The verses don't say 'Father'.
They designated LORD/YHVH as the speaker.
Which again, doesn't prove that YHVH is a singular person within the one being.
The Lord Jesus referred to the glory which He shared with the Father before the creation. 'with'- 'para'- 'along side' implies at least two.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with [para] thee before the world was.
SimpleMan77
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Hebrews 1 clearly and unequivocally says that the one who spoke through the prophets in the Old Testament was the Father. Period. Full stop.
Prove that's not what it says if you think it's not.
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I don't deny that the Father was speaking.
Do you deny that the Son shared the same glory with the Father before the creation?
All that existed before the creation was infinite being.
There cannot be more than one infinite, yet the Son was with the Father and according to Jn 1:1, the Word was 'with' GOD, as well as also being GOD.
Do you believe that the spies of Israel returned from Canaan carrying between them only one grape on a pole?
Yet, in the Hebrew, that's what it says.....'eschol echad'- 'one grape'.
SimpleMan77
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The Father said "I don't give my glory to anyone else", so anyone with the Father's glory is the Father.
My words are with me before I speak them. My words are me, because they reveal the real me. My words aren't a separate person.
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That the logos was considered to be a person by 1st century Jews is evidenced by the use of the equivalent word 'memra' in the Aramaic Targums.
Gen. 28:20-21 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If the Memra of YHVH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Memra of Lord be my God.-Targum Onkelos
Exodus 3:14 And the Memra of the Lord said unto Moses: "I am He who said unto the world, ‘Be!’ And it was; and who in the future shall say to it, ‘Be!’ And it shall be." And He said: "Thus thou shalt say to the children of Israel;‘I Am hath sent me unto you’."- Jerusalem Targum to Shemot
Exo 20:1 And the Memra spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.- Targum Jonathan
SimpleMan77
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"Logos" was used in the place of the name of God, but the Jews always used it to represent God, who they understood to be one Being (person). They were militantly monotheistic, believing in one being with one center of consciousness.
To say that the Jews personified the Word as a separate person from their monotheistic understanding of God is completely untrue.
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SimpleMan77
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[MENTION=12870]steko[/MENTION] any thoughts on why the Father claimed all of the credit for being God all by Himself, for stretching out the heavens and earth by Himself, etc?
I think He was trying to say "if you find anyone like me, you've found me". The Father was preparing us for the incarnation, saying over and over "I am God all by myself".
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I think He was trying to say "if you find anyone like me, you've found me". The Father was preparing us for the incarnation, saying over and over "I am God all by myself".
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