ECT Salvation Under the Law

[Jerry Shugart]

Here we see that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith, the same way that we are saved:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

However, on another thread Clete said that those under the law were saved by grace and in order to receive that grace they must both believe and obey the Law:

This verse was written to Jews who where both saved and lived under the Law. Your application of it is therefore inappropriate. For those under the Law, grace is imputed to those who both believe God and obey the Law. That is a topic for another thread, however.

Clete fails to understand the basic principle in regard to grace, that if it is of grace then it is not of works, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

 

[DAN P]

Here we see that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith, the same way that we are saved:
/QUOTE]


Hi and what exactly do you means " That those who lived under the Law were SAVED by Grace through faith , the same way that we are saved ??

Rom 3:24 says that Being declared righreous freely by His Grace through the REDEMPTION THE3 ONE " in Christ " Jesus !!

Are you saying that those under the were saved by the preaching of the Gospel of Grace of God ??

Those under the Law were never " in Christ , were they ?

Clarify !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you saying that those under the were saved by the preaching of the Gospel of Grace of God ??

Many of them were saved when they believed the "good news" or gospel which Paul preached here:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

When a Jew who lived under the law believed that truth they received life and were born of God ( Jn.20:30-31; 1 Jn.5:1-5).

Those under the Law were never " in Christ , were they ?

Let us look at this verse from the introduction in the first epistle to the Corinthians:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore all of them were told the following later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

In this passage Paul uses the pronoun "we" twice and from his introduction in that same epistle we can know that that pronoun is not only referring to those in the church at Corinth but also "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

Therefore, all those everywhere who called on the name of the Lord Jesus (which included many Jews who lived under the Law) were ALL members of the Body of Christ.

 

[jamie]

Those under the Law were never " in Christ , were they ?

All who have the Holy Spirit belong to Christ.

Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying: “Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them..."?

 

[DAN P]

Here we see that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith, the same way that we are saved:
/QUOTE]


Hi and what exactly do you means " That those who lived under the Law were SAVED by Grace through faith , the same way that we are saved ??

Rom 3:24 says that Being declared righreous freely by His Grace through the REDEMPTION THE3 ONE " in Christ " Jesus !!

Are you saying that those under the were saved by the preaching of the Gospel of Grace of God ??

Those under the Law were never " in Christ , were they ?

Clarify !!

dan p

Hi and those who you say that were under the LAW were NEVER in Christ and you will prove this , even if you try to use Rom 16:7 !!

Gal 3:28 proves that WRONG !!

Second in Acts 9:20 the Greek word " He preached " that is Paul , is in the Greek IMPEFECT TENSE which means Paul did preach this to those Jews UNTIL Acts 13:46 and Acts 18:6 and Acts 28:28 !!

So , what does CHRIST / CHRISTOS then means , it means the MESSIAM or the ANNOINTED and the Son of God !!

You are wrong that the Jews were saved by GRACE !!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are wrong that the Jews were saved by GRACE !!

It was the Jews who lived under the Law so if you believe what Paul wrote in the following verse you will know that the Jewish believers were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

[

]Hi and those who you say that were under the LAW were NEVER in Christ and you will prove this , even if you try to use Rom 16:L7 !!

Gal 3:28 proves that WRONG !!

Both Jews and Gentiles are baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Cor.12:13).​

"

 

[DAN P]

It was the Jews who lived under the Law so if you believe what Paul wrote in the following verse you will know that the Jewish believers were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Hi and you are wrong if you believe that Jews under the Law were saved by the dispensation of the Grace of God as these words are not used in Acts 9:20 !!

You have not PROVED that Jews under the Law are in the Body of Christ !!

The Jews were NOT side aside in Acts 9:20 BUT in Acts 28:28 !!

You are BLENDING the Law with Grace of God or the Dispensation of the Grace of God that Pul preached in Rom 16:25 and 26 , so how does that make you a MAD , or Acts 9er and a Dispensationalist ?

Acts 9:20 says that Paul was Proclaiming the CHRIST and not the Dispensation of the Grace of God , so you are WRONG , PERIOD , so pleas clarify !!

dan p

 

[DAN P]

Here we see that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith, the same way that we are saved:
/QUOTE]


Hi and what do you mean , that those under the LAW were saved by GRACE ??

Where is that verse found ?

If that is true , there is NO Israel or GENTILES !!

Do you believe that Israel was set aside ?

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi and you are wrong if you believe that Jews under the Law were saved by the dispensation of the Grace of God as these words are not used in Acts 9:20 !!

You have not PROVED that Jews under the Law are in the Body of Christ !!

The Jews were NOT side aside in Acts 9:20 BUT in Acts 28:28 !!

You are BLENDING the Law with Grace of God or the Dispensation of the Grace of God that Pul preached in Rom 16:25 and 26 , so how does that make you a MAD , or Acts 9er and a Dispensationalist ?

Acts 9:20 says that Paul was Proclaiming the CHRIST and not the Dispensation of the Grace of God , so you are WRONG , PERIOD , so pleas clarify !!

dan p

Individual Jews were never set aside - the nation of Israel as a nation...was.

And Jerry is referring to grace - not to the dispensation of grace.

Salvation has always been by grace.

:doh: :chuckle:

 

[DAN P]

Individual Jews were never set aside - the nation of Israel as a nation...was.

And Jerry is referring to grace - not to the dispensation of grace.

Salvation has always been by grace.

:doh: :chuckle:

Hi and Jerry was quoting Acts 9:20 , was he not , so where does it say Grace in that verse ?

He should clarify it and he has not !!

Psa 136 is a good chapter to read as to how God protected Israel !!

dan p

 

[jamie]

Hi and Jerry was quoting Acts 9:20 , was he not , so where does it say Grace in that verse ?

It was by the Father's grace that he sent Jesus Christ to provide salvation. Grace is inherent, it's a given.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and you are wrong if you believe that Jews under the Law were saved by the dispensation of the Grace of God as these words are not used in Acts 9:20 !!

Those under the law were saved by grace through faith, just as we are:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

For some reason you cannot understand what Paul said in that verse.

You have not PROVED that Jews under the Law are in the Body of Christ !!

You did not even try to prove what I said about what is written in 1 Corinthians is untrue.

The Jews were NOT side aside in Acts 9:20 BUT in Acts 28:28 !!

The epistle to the Romans was written before Acts 28 and there we read that through Israel's fall salvation is come to the Gentiles (Ro.11:11).

You are BLENDING the Law with Grace of God or the Dispensation of the Grace of God that Pul preached in Rom 16:25 and 26 , so how does that make you a MAD , or Acts 9er and a Dispensationalist ?

I am not blending the dispensation of the law with the dispensation of grace. People who lived under the law were saved by their faith apart from works, as witnessed by the lord's words here:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Individual Jews were never set aside - the nation of Israel as a nation...was.

And Jerry is referring to grace - not to the dispensation of grace.

Salvation has always been by grace.

:doh: :chuckle:

EXCELLENT!

 

[DAN P]

Hi and Jerry was quoting Acts 9:20 , was he not , so where does it say Grace in that verse ?

He should clarify it and he has not !!

Psa 136 is a good chapter to read as to how God protected Israel !!

dan p

Hi and you mean that Jews are not saved todAY ?

Not a good statement , other wise why have Gal 3:28

Wrong again !!

dan p

 

[DAN P]

Those under the law were saved by grace through faith, just as we are:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

For some reason you cannot understand what Paul said in that verse.



You did not even try to prove what I said about what is written in 1 Corinthians is untrue.


The epistle to the Romans was written before Acts 28 and there we read that through Israel's fall salvation is come to the Gentiles (Ro.11:11).



I am not blending the dispensation of the law with the dispensation of grace. People who lived under the law were saved by their faith apart from works, as witnessed by the lord's words here:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Hi and here is another wrong statement as Jews had to Have repentance of good works and be WATER BAPTIZED to be saved as referenced in Matt 3:8 and in Acts 26:20 !!

dan p

 

[DAN P]

EXCELLENT!

Hi and what about Paul in Gal 1:9 and called by His GRACE while yet in the womb and Paul is just one of many Jews that had a MANDATE and not the 12 Apostles !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and here is another wrong statement as Jews had to Have repentance of good works and be WATER BAPTIZED to be saved as referenced in Matt 3:8 and in Acts 26:20 !!

Dan, you just ignored the words of the Lord Jesus at Luke 7:48-50 and the words of Paul at Romans 4:16, both passages which directly contradict what you said.

 

[DAN P]

Dan, you just ignored the words of the Lord Jesus at Luke 7:48-50 and the words of Paul at Romans 4:16, both passages which directly contradict what you said.

Hi and Luke 7:50 is a context under the LAW !!

Can YOU be for the Law and be under GRACE and say that they both are the same !!

If WE ARE all saved by the Law and Grace , do we keep the 613 Laws that govern Israel IF all are the same , salvation , then we all can be LAW KEEPERS ALSO ??

It is OBVIOUS that you are not a Dispensationalist , but an Acts 2 believer !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Perhaps we see the following differently, Dan P and or Jerry S.

My understanding is that faith takes God's Word as His Word as to what He asserts He requires via His Word.

God's Word to Israel was basically I Am the LORD YOUR God - do this; that; the other and don't do this other this; that; the other.

In other words, that was HIS "thou shalt/thou shalt not" to that nation.

What did faith do under THAT Dispensation?

It took THAT as HIS Word to THEM.

In which case, THEIR doing "those things which saith the law" was PRECEEDED BY FAITH - that THIS is what the LORD OUR God has commanded - and BECAUSE WE BELIEVE that He is OUR God Who has COMMANDED us to BELIEVE that He IS OUR God, and to THEREFORE do what He has COMMNANDED, WE will THEREFORE DO those things.

One would have to be blind not to see that FAITH PRECEEDS THEIR doing.

The issue was the HEART issue of FAITH...

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

But again, merely DOING was NOT faith.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

His worshipping Him FOLLOWED his believing on Him.

What was all that based on?

What was it all about?

Believing ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED Grace...

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

See that?

Details concerning His Propheised kingdom's grace (mysteries of THEIR coming kingdom's restoration) was given to those who had faith.

In short - to those within the nation ISRAEL who were NOT in UNBELIEF like "the rest" of THEIR nation - those of THAT nation in UNBELIEF who REMAINED THEIR BELIEVING Remnant.

That is what a remnant is - what is left of a thing.

The issue was one of FAITH.

The issue was one of THE HEART.

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[DAN P]

Perhaps we see the following differently, Dan P and or Jerry S.

My understanding is that faith takes God's Word as His Word as to what He asserts He requires via His Word.

God's Word to Israel was basically I Am the LORD YOUR God - do this; that; the other and don't do this other this; that; the other.

In other words, that was HIS "thou shalt/thou shalt not" to that nation.

What did faith do under THAT Dispensation?

It took THAT as HIS Word to THEM.

In which case, THEIR doing "those things which saith the law" was PRECEEDED BY FAITH - that THIS is what the LORD OUR God has commanded - and BECAUSE WE BELIEVE that He is OUR God Who has COMMANDED us to BELIEVE that He IS OUR God, and to THEREFORE do what He has COMMNANDED, WE will THEREFORE DO those things.

One would have to be blind not to see that FAITH PRECEEDS THEIR doing.

The issue was the HEART issue of FAITH...

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

But again, merely DOING was NOT faith.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

His worshipping Him FOLLOWED his believing on Him.

What was all that based on?

What was it all about?

Believing ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED Grace...

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

See that?

Details concerning His Propheised kingdom's grace (mysteries of THEIR coming kingdom's restoration) was given to those who had faith.

In short - to those within the nation ISRAEL who were NOT in UNBELIEF like "the rest" of THEIR nation - those of THAT nation in UNBELIEF who REMAINED THEIR BELIEVING Remnant.

That is what a remnant is - what is left of a thing.

The issue was one of FAITH.

The issue was one of THE HEART.

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hi and you are right that I will not see as both of you see Faith !!

FAITH to me is that you BELIEVE what God has told you !!

You can not say Israel was saved by the LAW , lust we are SAVED by the Dispensation of the Grace of God , so what PLANET are you guys on ?? It has to be one or the other BECAUSE WE knoe that Israel was set aside OR are we BLENDED in to Israel !!

I believe all the bible , BUT I do not use the Law to prove the so-called Rapture , or Reconciliation , or OSAS , or the Body of Christ are just a few items !!

You are both WRONG !!


dan p