Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul

[Rosenritter]

Already happened



Already happened. Since you are conflating Daniel with Revelation, you need to explain the following:

(Dan 12:4) But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end.

(Rev 22:10) Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

Do the math.

Daniel prophesied the birth of Christ, which took place about 500 years after he was told to seal his scroll.

John was told not to seal his scroll because the time was near for his prophecies. But, you are telling us John's prophecies didn't happen yet, even though it's been almost 2,000 years.

So, why was Daniel told to seal his scroll for prophecies that were 500 years away, but John told not to seal his scroll for prophecies that were 2,000 years (and still counting) away?

That makes no sense.

The answer is that what John prophesied did in fact happen soon after John completed the Revelation. Which is why he was told to NOT seal his scroll because the time was near.

This world we are in does NOT match the description of the world that follows after Christ will return!

 

[Rosenritter]

You are looking at one verse by itself, and you are misled by your own thoughts in what you see. Here, let me help.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB - 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Tetelestai is right on this particular point. When a Dispensationalist says "Rapture" they don't mean the catching up of the saints to meet Jesus when he returns, at least not the way everyone else understands it. They have Jesus returning once (invisibly) to whisk away all the saints at the last trump and then coming a third time for the Second Coming (or Third Coming?) with a different trump other than the last trump. If you want to see a less cynical explanation put forth by Rapture Proponents themselves download the movie 'Left Behind." I have a copy on DVD that I keep right beside the New World Translation and the Book of Mormon.

 

[Rosenritter]

Paul said that when a believer dies, the believer is present with the Lord.

Please quote whatever scripture you are thinking of from whatever translation you wish and show me where it says that. ​I suspect you are misreading the passage as if different words were used.

 

[tetelestai]

Do you have independent historical corroboration of this?

For starters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallel

After that, you can check many Jewish websites that explain how the Hallel was sung at the 3 Pilgrimage Feasts.

 

[Rosenritter]

Verse 41 from what book and what chapter?

Why do you deny the words of the Lord Jesus when He says in no uncertain terms that the kingdom will not even be near until He returns to the earth?:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

Do you think that He was wrong and you are right or what?

I hope they are treating you well in your padded cell.

Was there a historian that recorded Jesus returning in the clouds where every eye could see him back in 70 AD that I don't know about?

 

[tetelestai]

Children still die without seeing a hundred years, the new heavens and the new earth has not been created, and is still prophesied by Peter and John.

Peter and John's prophecies were written before 70AD.

Both Isaiah and Revelation say this new heavens and new earth will have no more weeping or crying, these are the same prophecy.

There is no more weeping or crying in the kingdom. The kingdom is not on planet earth.

It was on CNN.

LOL...The Fake News Network

 

[tetelestai]

That thousand years starts with Christ's second coming and the first resurrection of the dead, when he is seen coming in clouds, with the voice of the archangel, at the last trump. That certainly hasn't happened yet.

Happened in 70AD

 

[tetelestai]

Please quote whatever scripture you are thinking of from whatever translation you wish and show me where it says that. ​I suspect you are misreading the passage as if different words were used.

(1 Thess 4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When a believer dies today, they are instantly "caught up" in the clouds to meet all the previous believers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He's been sitting on His throne since 70AD

When the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven He was set down at the right hand of the heavenly throne of God:

"Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens" (Heb.8:1).​

However, the Apostle John witnessed a scene set in the heavenly sphere and in the following passage he speaks of a throne which he saw there:

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven...And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne" (Rev.4:1-2).​

The one who sits upon the throne is Almighty God (v. 8) and John saw that that He had a book in his right hand:

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Rev.5:1).

Then John saw the Lord Jesus take the book out of the right hand of God:

"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne" (Rev.5:6-7).​

First notice that John saw the Lord Jesus "standing" and therefore at that time He was not sitting on any throne. Besides that, when John saw the Lord Jesus and God together he only saw one throne and it is God who is sitting upon that throne and not the Lord Jesus. And John speaks of both of them in the following verse and he speaks of only God being upon a throne:

"Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever" (Rev.5:13).​

If the Davidic throne is in heaven now then why didn't John see it? John had a clear, unobstructed view of the heavenly scene, being able to see the throne of God and also able to see seven lamps of fire burning before God's throne (4:5). But he did not see any throne on the right hand of God's throne. He also saw four beasts at God's throne (Rev.4:6) and he counted twenty four elders around that throne (Rev.4:10) but he did not see a throne at the right hand of that throne.

John didn't see the throne of David and besides that, the Lord Jesus was seen standing and not seated on any throne. But you say that He has been sitting at His throne since 70 AD. Also, at Acts 7:57 Stephen saw Him "standing" at the right hand of God so you are wrong when you say that He has been sitting on His throne since 70AD.

 

[tetelestai]

Was there a historian that recorded Jesus returning in the clouds where every eye could see him back in 70 AD that I don't know about?

You need to not take it literally.

(Isaiah 19:1)The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

In the above, God didn't literally ride a swift cloud into Egypt. The metaphoric language describes the Assyrian army invading Egypt.

Now jump to the first century, the same metaphoric language describes the Roman army invading Jerusalem.

However, if you're interested in historians recording Jesus returning in the clouds:

Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" ( Josephus, Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

"Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." ( Tacitus, Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

(1 Thess 4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When a believer dies today, they are instantly "caught up" in the clouds to meet all the previous believers.

Those who will be caught up will be caught up when they are still alive:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:51-53).​

 

[tetelestai]

But you say that He has been sitting at His throne since 70 AD.

Correct.

But he did not see any throne on the right hand of God's throne

Since you are confused about thrones:

(1 Chron 9:23 KJV) Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

(1 Kings 2:12 KJV) Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.

Which throne did Solomon sit on Jerry?

Davids or The Lords?

 

[Jacob]

Tetelestai is right on this particular point. When a Dispensationalist says "Rapture" they don't mean the catching up of the saints to meet Jesus when he returns, at least not the way everyone else understands it. They have Jesus returning once (invisibly) to whisk away all the saints at the last trump and then coming a third time for the Second Coming (or Third Coming?) with a different trump other than the last trump. If you want to see a less cynical explanation put forth by Rapture Proponents themselves download the movie 'Left Behind." I have a copy on DVD that I keep right beside the New World Translation and the Book of Mormon.

What do you mean by a third coming?

 

[tetelestai]

Those who will be caught up will be caught up when they are still alive:

Nope.

No one is caught up alive post 70AD

 

[tetelestai]

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:51-53).[/INDENT]

Refers to the Feast of Trumpets that Christ Jesus fulfilled in 70AD

 

[George Affleck]

For starters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallel

After that, you can check many Jewish websites that explain how the Hallel was sung at the 3 Pilgrimage Feasts.

Hold on!

You are trying to tie Matt 23:39 with Palm Sunday with the thinnest of threads.

You made this bold assertion for which there is no support:

In the first century the Jews who lived in Jerusalem would line the streets and sing Psalm 118:26 as the Jews who lived in foreign nations made their way into the city. We see an example of this when Jesus came to Jerusalem for Passover right before they crucified Him:

1. You are singling out 1 line out 85 verses that make up the Hallel as if they only said this one thing. This is called not telling the whole truth.

2. You are saying that they "lined the streets" to say their prayers as if this was a customary procedure. But the Hallel is performed during a religious service or at a feast. There are no historic precedents for your supposition.

3. You are suggesting that the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem was not a special occasion but happened regularly to all sorts of visitors of which Jesus' entry was just an example.

If you have real support, please let's see it.
Until then I will continue to believe that the throng had heard of or even witnessed the raising of Lazarus and believed Him to be the Messiah.

 

[tetelestai]

1. You are singling out 1 line out 85 verses that make up the Hallel as if they only said this one thing. This is called not telling the whole truth.

"They shout Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! (v. 13). These are lines from one of the Psalms of Ascents (Ps 118:25-26) sung as a welcome to pilgrims coming up to Jerusalem." SOURCE

"This Psalm was actually sung to pilgrims by the inhabitants of Jerusalem, as the travelers approached the city of Jerusalem to observe one of the three sacred feast days of the Jewish Calendar. " - SOURCE

“Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!” (Luke 19:38). As is also well known, the crowd is taking this chant from Psalm 118, a popular song that was sung during the feasts of Passover and Tabernacles" - SOURCE

‘Blessed is he who comes (to Jerusalem) in the name of the Lord’ was what the pilgrims sang about and to each other as they went up to Zion. - SOURCE

I can show many more sources if you like. I studied this many years ago, and don't have it readily available, but I can assure you this is not denied by Jews today.

Sorry if I made it appear that they sang just the one verse. They sang the entire chapter, and other chapters of Psalm's as well.

2. You are saying that they "lined the streets" to say their prayers as if this was a customary procedure. But the Hallel is performed during a religious service or at a feast. There are no historic precedents for your supposition.

They did line the streets. We see this in Matt 23

3. You are suggesting that the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem was not a special occasion but happened regularly to all sorts of visitors of which Jesus' entry was just an example.

They lined the streets for all 3 pilgrimage feasts every year. There was extra excitement for Jesus, and this is documented with the palm branches.

If you have real support, please let's see it.
Until then I will continue to believe that the throng had heard of or even witnessed the raising of Lazarus and believed Him to be the Messiah.

As we know, there was a mixed crowd back then. For everyone excited about Jesus, there were even more excited Jews who wanted Him arrested, and/or killed.

 

[tetelestai]

You are trying to tie Matt 23:39 with Palm Sunday with the thinnest of threads.

No, I'm tying Matt 23:39 to Pentecost, which was the first time the Jews in Jerusalem sang "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" since Jesus said what He said in Matt 23:39

 

[clefty]

That thousand years is also a rough length for a human from birth to end of days, at least the way God originally intended for us. With six thousand years of history so far, a seventh thousand years belonging to the LORD would seem like a fitting Sabbath.

Somebody tell Him we abolished that Sabbath thingy...blamed it on Him

 

[clefty]

He returned in 70AD.



Happened in 70AD



He came in 70AD



He's been sitting on His throne since 70AD


You're more confused than Tony Romo on a safety blitz.



I believe the words of the Lord Jesus.

The Lord Jesus made it crystal clear that He would return before the generation of His contemporaries passed away.

(Mark 13:30) Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

It is you, and all your Darby following Dispensationalists who do not believe what the Lord Jesus said in Mark 13:30

But you said:

Why is it so hard for you guys to understand that the same type of metaphoric language was used to describe what happened to Jerusalem in 70AD? Post #1624