Real Science Radio: The Search for Noah's Ark

Jefferson

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RSR: The Search for Noah's Ark

This is the show from Friday May 10th, 2013

SUMMARY:

* Dr. Don Patton Ark Search Update: Real Science Radio speaks to the scientist who debunked the widely publicized 2010 claimed sighting of Noah's Ark. Dr. Don Patton tells Bob Enyart about the latest developments on Mt. Ararat in the search for Noah's Ark.



* Dr. Patton's Own Work on Ararat Coming to a Climax: Lord willing, in 2013 Dr. Patton will again climb Mt. Ararat to 16,600 feet along with an extraordinary team of scientists. They will excavate in deeper through the remaining feet of ice at the most-often cited location for the remnants of Noah's Ark. This follows their last couple years of expeditions during which one of the world's leading experts in ground-penetrating radar surveyed their target area with the latest technology and corroborated recent satellite telemetry and a claimed 1943 sighting by U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Ed Davis, (see drawings, etc.). Please pray for Dr. Patton's efforts and that he will have continued favor with the Turkish scientific and archaeological community, the Kurds at the base of Ararat, and the government of Turkey.



* Dr. Patton Helped Excavate the Pool of Siloam
: A geologist and archaeological excavator, Dr. Patton has worked professionally in more than a dozen countries and has excavated the longest set of dinosaur track in the Americas. And he was an area coordinator for the important excavation of the Pool of Siloam in Jerusalem (which discovery tied into a major debate that Bob Enyart was involved in at the time).

* Help Research this National Geographic Quote: Long-time editor of National Geographic magazine, Gilbert Grosvenor, is quoted as having said:

The discovery of Noah's Ark would be the greatest archaeological find in human history, the greatest event since the resurrection of Christ, and it would alter all the currents of scientific thought. -Attributed to G. Grosvenor, Nat'l Geographic editor

If you can help research this quote, to discredit or corroborate it, RSR would be grateful. To start with:
1875 - 1966: Gilbert Grosvenor, son-in-law of Alexander Graham Bell, led the Nat'l Geographic Society from 1899 and was their first full-time editor of their magazine from 1903 to 1954. His son Melville Bell Grosvenor is sometimes credited with the same quote.
2004: An article by a Marvin Cooley writes that Grosvenor stated something like this to ark explorer Don Shockey. (Shockey graduated with a degree in anthropology in 1957 from the University of New Mexico and was an acquaintance of both Dr. Patton and Ed Davis.)
1999: An article at the Ark Research Project by Matthew Kneisler cites this quote.
1976: Unverified. Tim LaHaye and Henry Morris, in Ark on Ararat, cite this quote.

* Post-show Note: Also, the world's crops originated near Mt. Ararat. As quoted by Dr. Walt Brown from the February 2004 issue of Science magazine, "The wild ancestors of the seven ‘founder crops’ harvested by the world’s first farmers have all been traced to the region of southeastern Turkey..." And see "The Cradle of Agriculture" from Science in June of 2000.

Today’s Resource: Get a science DVD, book, or written, audio or video debate from us and this will help BEL continue to reach people with our Real Science Radio broadcasts! Have you browsed through our Science Department in the KGOV Store? Check out the DVD What You Aren't Being Told About Astronomy and Walt Brown’s great hardcover book In the Beginning! You’ll also love Bob Enyart’s Age of the Earth Debate and the superb kids' radio programming, Jonathan Park: The Adventure Begins!

* In Colorado? Come On Out This Evening: Don Patton will speak to us in person this evening at the May meeting of the Rocky Mountain Creation Fellowship at Wadsworth and 21st Ave at 7 p.m. Bob Enyart, Doug McBurney, and other BEL crew members invite you to come on out and meet us!
 

fool

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Why would it still be there?
Seems like they would have had use for the lumber.
 

Bob Enyart

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a boat for fool

a boat for fool

Hey, fool. If it turns out we do find the ark, which way will you go?
Stripe, that's a great question to put to Fool.

Fool, if you ever want to meet for coffee or an early weekday breakfast, I'd love that.

And how about it? If a virtual ancient ocean-liner made of wood and of the dimensions recorded by Moses is found buried in ice 15,000 feet above sea level on Mt. Ararat, Fool, would you humble yourself to accept Christ's words about Noah and the global flood (rsr.org/new-testament-flood-references)? If the Ark is found, which would be the greatest archaeological discovery ever, with metagenomics identifying a great diversity of birds and land animals, Fool, might all that soften your heart toward the Lord God who made you?

-Bob
 

Paulos

New member
If the Ark is found, which would be the greatest archaeological discovery ever, with metagenomics identifying a great diversity of birds and land animals, Fool, might all that soften your heart toward the Lord God who made you?

That's a mighty big "If" you have there, Pastor Enyart. Furthermore, one could just as easily reverse the question to you: "If the Ark isn't found..."

One of the better arguments I've read against this claim is that Mt. Ararat is in fact a dormant volcano. It last erupted in 1840, and has been active previously on numerous occasions. Even if the Ark had actually landed there (itself a highly dubious proposition), it would have been destroyed by eruptions. Here is a reference: http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2010/04/not-noahs-ark.html
 

Bob Enyart

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I agree with you Paulos...

I agree with you Paulos...

That's a mighty big "If" you have there, Pastor Enyart. Furthermore, one could just as easily reverse the question to you: "If the Ark isn't found..."

Hi Paulos, yes, I couldn't agree with you more: that is a big "if". That's why I used that word. I don't expect that the Ark will be found. But I hope that it will be.

BTW, there are fields of pillow lava that our associates have photographed, videotaped, and hiked over, far up the mountain. And this is textbook pillow lava, which of course forms under water.

But because I've enjoyed interacting with Fool for many years, more in the past than nowadays, what I'm interested in is Stripe's question to him.

Fool, what will you do if that wooden ocean liner is found at 15,000 feet on Ararat?

Thanks guys!

-Bob E.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Noah's Ark has fascinated me from an engineering point of view. One of these days I'd like to create a 3D CAD model and perform a finite element analysis. :)
 

Paulos

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BTW, there are fields of pillow lava that our associates have photographed, videotaped, and hiked over, far up the mountain. And this is textbook pillow lava, which of course forms under water.

Opinions differ. Here are a couple of quotes:

Some geologists like Clifford Burdick have found pillow lava (lava spewed into water, ice, or snow) up to the 14,000-foot level where the 17-square mile ice cap typically begins. However, since pillow lava may be formed with ice or snow water, it is not a convincing argument for a flood-time mountain creation. -- http://www.noahsarksearch.com/ararat.htm

___________________

Pillow Lava on Ararat

There are different types of volcano, and Ararat is a Stratovolcano. This type of volcano is composed of alternating layers of lava and ash, and is typical of land-based volcanoes. It also shows much evidence of pyroclastic ejecta, which is another feature you would not see underwater. There is no evidence whatsoever that Ararat was underwater.
Of course, the claim could be made that it was underwater, and then it continued erupting when it was dry land. If it did so, however, the supposed pillow lava would be buried. -- http://www.oldearth.org/rebuttal/other/ltm/seminar4.htm
 
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Jefferson

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I don't think God will allow it to be discovered because Ephesians 2:8 says people are only saved through faith.

The proof of the existence of Noah's ark would simply be too much in-your-face proof of the Bible being God's word that it would destroy the possibility of anyone ever again exercising faith for salvation. It would be like trying to exercise faith that the Grand Canyon exists.
 

Paulos

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I don't think God will allow it to be discovered because Ephesians 2:8 says people are only saved through faith.

The proof of the existence of Noah's ark would simply be too much in-your-face proof of the Bible being God's word that it would destroy the possibility of anyone ever again exercising faith for salvation. It would be like trying to exercise faith that the Grand Canyon exists.

A salient point, and one that I have made myself on numerous occasions, for example:

Faith, by definition, deals only with things that are not seen (2 Cor 4:18, Heb 11:1) while science, by definition, deals only with what we can see or observe with physical instruments. If faith could be proven by science, faith would no longer be faith--it would be knowledge (Rom 8:24). Then, rather than being saved by our faith, we could be saved by our knowledge. Faith is not knowledge, and knowledge is not faith. Science is knowledge. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says that "we walk by faith, not by sight". Science and faith appear to be mutually exclusive.

This is precisely why young-earth creationism, flood geology, and other pseudo-scientific attempts to prove the Bible are so misguided even from the biblical perspective (2 Corinthians 5:7).
 

fool

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Stripe, that's a great question to put to Fool.

Fool, if you ever want to meet for coffee or an early weekday breakfast, I'd love that.
If I ever make it out to Colorado you'll be my first stop.

And how about it? If a virtual ancient ocean-liner made of wood and of the dimensions recorded by Moses is found buried in ice 15,000 feet above sea level on Mt. Ararat, Fool, would you humble yourself to accept Christ's words about Noah and the global flood (rsr.org/new-testament-flood-references)?
Bad logic there, The Wizard of Oz mentions Kansas, and Kansas is a real place. That doesn't make the story true.
Likewise you can go visit Hill Cumorah, yet neither you or I are Mormons.

If the Ark is found, which would be the greatest archaeological discovery ever, with metagenomics identifying a great diversity of birds and land animals, Fool, might all that soften your heart toward the Lord God who made you?

-Bob
It would be interesting for sure but still only evidence of people doing people stuff.
Let me turn it around and ask you a similar question.
What if they find a crashed spaceship up there?
Would that shake your faith or would you simply reinterperet the Bible to fit the new info?
 

fool

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Noah's Ark has fascinated me from an engineering point of view. One of these days I'd like to create a 3D CAD model and perform a finite element analysis. :)

Good idea, nobody has done a full size operating recreation for a very good reason.
 

Stripe

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This is precisely why young-earth creationism, flood geology, and other pseudo-scientific attempts to prove the Bible are so misguided even from the biblical perspective (2 Corinthians 5:7).
Funny. I'm a YEC and I don't use science to try and prove the bible correct. In fact I presuppose the bible is true and use science to try and falsify it.

You might want to remember that when you engage in discussion with me. :up:

Bad logic there, The Wizard of Oz mentions Kansas, and Kansas is a real place. That doesn't make the story true.
Bad logic in return. Those real things you mention are things used by the author to house the story not items produced by the story. If we found flying monkeys or heartless lions then you might be convinced that The Wizard of Oz is true.

Similarly, we have found Mt. Ararat, but nobody is using that fact to try convincing you that the bible is accurate. We're looking for a product of the story to convince.

What if they find a crashed spaceship up there? Would that shake your faith or would you simply reinterperet the Bible to fit the new info?

A spacecraft isn't mentioned in the story. There would be no burden on us to provide any explanation or change any story.
 

resurrected

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Fool, what will you do if that wooden ocean liner is found at 15,000 feet on Ararat?

Surrounded by ice?

Giant toboggan ride! :banana:


If we found flying monkeys ... then you might be convinced that The Wizard of Oz is true.

done it


the-legacy-of-ham07.jpg
 
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