Real Science Radio CRSQ (Vol 43, Num 1)

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Turbo

Caped Crusader
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Real Science Radio CRSQ (Vol 43, Num 1)
Friday August 11, 2006. This is show #160.

Summary:
* Two Creationists Summarize the Latest Journal
: Fred Williams, webmaster for the Creation Research Society (nice website!), and Bob Enyart talk through the articles in CRSQ, a peer-reviewed scientific journal. For example, in The Fossil Cliffs of Joggins, Nova Scotia, readers learn about dozens of polystrate fossils such as trees spanning many strata that disprove million-year deposition rates!
Today's Resource: Get the BEL Science Pack, and we'll pay for your subscription to the Creation Research Society Quarterly! For only $99.99, you'll get five fabulous resources, Unlocking the Mystery of Life, The Privileged Planet, In the Beginning, and Bob's Age of the Earth Debate and Genesis: Creation Bible study album! To order, call 800-8Enyart (800 836-9278) and save $33 of the individual item prices, and get a free subscription to CRSQ (offer good only through August)!
 
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Morphy

New member
Bob Enyart spins yarns?

Bob Enyart spins yarns?

As much as I appreciate Bob's economic and politic ideas as much I laugh out loud when I listen to his 'arguments' against evolution.

Unfortunately one more time Bob committed a anti-evolution talk show without any tenable arguments.

Let me deal with the most obvious yarns:

1. Sickle cell anemia. Bob, it's not about loosing any information. If you read some genetic books you'll learn it is caused by REPLACEMENT of thymine by adenine (parts of nucleotides). If thymine is replaced by adenine the triplet Cytosine - Adenine - Thymine (CAT) takes new form: Cytosine - Thymine - Thymine (CTT). Therefore mRNA codone created on a basis of DNA is GUA instead of GAA (G- guanosine, U - uridine, A- adenosine). Such mRNA is used by rybosomes as an instruction how to produce proteins from aminoacids. GUA codes Valine while GAA Glutamine thus replacement of thymine with adenine in DNA results in replacement of just one (among thousands if not millions) aminoacid. The improper aminoacid (Valine instead of Glutamine) deforms chain B of hemoglobin therefore it is less soluble in water and thus malformed red blood cells look a little bit like a crescent instead of a "tire".

There is no loosing any DNA - just replacement of one nucleotide with another. In fact it is gaining since adenine has a bigger molecule than thymine.

Bob Enyart always says evolution doesn't create new abilities and sickle cell anemia is an excellent example he is dead wrong: hemoglobine S (that's the name of the altered hemoglobine) has new ability: it has a different shape, it is 'sticky' thus it changes shape of a red blood cell what makes them resistant to germs causing malaria (plasmodium). This is an excellent example one single DNA mutation means an organism gains a completely new ability.

Bob said it is a disease of blacks - that's another lie, although I believe unintentional. Hemoglobine S has many negative, disadvantageous featers but one huge ability: the red blood cell cannot be infected by plasmodium. Whites can have the disease as well, but there is one problem: it decreases chances of survival thus it exists only in areas where the disadvantage is counterbalanced by being free of malaria. In malaria -free areas sickle cell anemia is virtually wiped out by evolution (surival of the fittest gene). On the other hand in malaria infested areas sickle cell anemia is relatively common.

Bob compares hemoglobine S to loosing information, I would compare sickle cell anemia to rain tires (sickle cell anemia) and slicks (regular hemoglobine): rain tires are by far worse if there are dry conditions (no malaria in neibourghood), but are much better when a road is wet (epidemic of malaria). Replacing slicks with rain tires doesn't mean 'loosing information' it means 'changing' information.


2. Bob thinks he mocks the theory of evolution with the program randomly casting letters in order to achieve an alphabet. Thus Bob Enyart uses liberals' favourite tactics: to say falsely that ridiculous idea is believed to be true by your enemy, mock it, then mock the believer and everything seems to be fine except for one thing: the idea is cosidered by your opponent false as well...

Bob's program has nothing to do with evolution since it is based on 2 false, ridiculous theses:
- evolution always starts a new, from the scratch (have you ever heard evolutionist saying reptiles and mammals evolved directly from amoebas completely independently?)
- there is no survival of the fittest (have you ever heard evolutionist saying anything like that?)

Thus what Bob Enyart is doing is claiming these false theories to be believed by evolutionists, mocks the theories and then mocks the evolutioninsts. Successful, truly, but devastatingly unfair.

This is how the program should be written:
1. It should cast chain of 24 letters in a specific order randomly.
2. If any of the letters is in the right place it must have higher 'survival rate' then others (survival of the fittest gene).
3. The code should 'multiple' (just like every living species can multiple).
4. There can be different rules of multiplying, let me propose one:
- every chain of 24 letters creates 10 copies, half of them identical, half of them (to speed up evolution) with mutations (2-3 letters different than original)
- if any chain of 24 letters has any letter in the right place it gets higher survival rate - like 20% more copies for every letter in the right place (for example: if a chain has no correct letters it gets 10 new copies, if it has 1 correct letter it gets 12 new copies, if 2 gets 14, 3 - 16 and so on).
- at the end of multiplying phase some chains must die (death is substantial for evolution, eternal life of all organisms means end of evolution) - let's say for the first 1000 turns there will be lower death rate (empty Earth), but later it should increase and reach a stable point - new chains should replace dying ones.
- "dying" rules: for every correct letter a chain should have 20% less risk of death (because good genes mean one can survive many threats like avoiding predators or finding more food).

If Bob Enyart writes new program, abiding rules of evolution, real ones, not fake ones, I guarantee in less than 10 years he will have many chains very similar or even identical to the Latin alphabet. I can bet him any money he wants.

There are several dozen yarns Bob span in his talk show. Suffice for me to discuss this 2 since it gives everyone an excellent example how untenable his theses are.
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Morphy_ said:
As much as I appreciate Bob's economic and politic ideas as much I laugh out loud when I listen to his 'arguments' against evolution.

Unfortunately one more time Bob committed a anti-evolution talk show without any tenable arguments.

Let me deal with the most obvious yarns:

1. Sickle cell anemia. Bob, it's not about loosing any information. If you read some genetic books you'll learn it is caused by REPLACEMENT of thymine by adenine (parts of nucleotides). If thymine is replaced by adenine the triplet Cytosine - Adenine - Thymine (CAT) takes new form: Cytosine - Thymine - Thymine (CTT). Therefore mRNA codone created on a basis of DNA is GUA instead of GAA (G- guanosine, U - uridine, A- adenosine). Such mRNA is used by rybosomes as an instruction how to produce proteins from aminoacids. GUA codes Valine while GAA Glutamine thus replacement of thymine with adenine in DNA results in replacement of just one (among thousands if not millions) aminoacid. The improper aminoacid (Valine instead of Glutamine) deforms chain B of hemoglobin therefore it is less soluble in water and thus malformed red blood cells look a little bit like a crescent instead of a "tire".

There is no loosing any DNA - just replacement of one nucleotide with another. In fact it is gaining since adenine has a bigger molecule than thymine.

Bob Enyart always says evolution doesn't create new abilities and sickle cell anemia is an excellent example he is dead wrong: hemoglobine S (that's the name of the altered hemoglobine) has new ability: it has a different shape, it is 'sticky' thus it changes shape of a red blood cell what makes them resistant to germs causing malaria (plasmodium). This is an excellent example one single DNA mutation means an organism gains a completely new ability.

Bob said it is a disease of blacks - that's another lie, although I believe unintentional. Hemoglobine S has many negative, disadvantageous featers but one huge ability: the red blood cell cannot be infected by plasmodium. Whites can have the disease as well, but there is one problem: it decreases chances of survival thus it exists only in areas where the disadvantage is counterbalanced by being free of malaria. In malaria -free areas sickle cell anemia is virtually wiped out by evolution (surival of the fittest gene). On the other hand in malaria infested areas sickle cell anemia is relatively common.

Bob compares hemoglobine S to loosing information, I would compare sickle cell anemia to rain tires (sickle cell anemia) and slicks (regular hemoglobine): rain tires are by far worse if there are dry conditions (no malaria in neibourghood), but are much better when a road is wet (epidemic of malaria). Replacing slicks with rain tires doesn't mean 'loosing information' it means 'changing' information.


2. Bob thinks he mocks the theory of evolution with the program randomly casting letters in order to achieve an alphabet. Thus Bob Enyart uses liberals' favourite tactics: to say falsely that ridiculous idea is believed to be true by your enemy, mock it, then mock the believer and everything seems to be fine except for one thing: the idea is cosidered by your opponent false as well...

Bob's program has nothing to do with evolution since it is based on 2 false, ridiculous theses:
- evolution always starts a new, from the scratch (have you ever heard evolutionist saying reptiles and mammals evolved directly from amoebas completely independently?)
- there is no survival of the fittest (have you ever heard evolutionist saying anything like that?)

Thus what Bob Enyart is doing is claiming these false theories to be believed by evolutionists, mocks the theories and then mocks the evolutioninsts. Successful, truly, but devastatingly unfair.

This is how the program should be written:
1. It should cast chain of 24 letters in a specific order randomly.
2. If any of the letters is in the right place it must have higher 'survival rate' then others (survival of the fittest gene).
3. The code should 'multiple' (just like every living species can multiple).
4. There can be different rules of multiplying, let me propose one:
- every chain of 24 letters creates 10 copies, half of them identical, half of them (to speed up evolution) with mutations (2-3 letters different than original)
- if any chain of 24 letters has any letter in the right place it gets higher survival rate - like 20% more copies for every letter in the right place (for example: if a chain has no correct letters it gets 10 new copies, if it has 1 correct letter it gets 12 new copies, if 2 gets 14, 3 - 16 and so on).
- at the end of multiplying phase some chains must die (death is substantial for evolution, eternal life of all organisms means end of evolution) - let's say for the first 1000 turns there will be lower death rate (empty Earth), but later it should increase and reach a stable point - new chains should replace dying ones.
- "dying" rules: for every correct letter a chain should have 20% less risk of death (because good genes mean one can survive many threats like avoiding predators or finding more food).

If Bob Enyart writes new program, abiding rules of evolution, real ones, not fake ones, I guarantee in less than 10 years he will have many chains very similar or even identical to the Latin alphabet. I can bet him any money he wants.

There are several dozen yarns Bob span in his talk show. Suffice for me to discuss this 2 since it gives everyone an excellent example how untenable his theses are.

You ought to give Bob a call and set him straight.
 

Johnny

New member
Bob Enyart always says evolution doesn't create new abilities and sickle cell anemia is an excellent example he is dead wrong: hemoglobine S (that's the name of the altered hemoglobine) has new ability: it has a different shape, it is 'sticky' thus it changes shape of a red blood cell what makes them resistant to germs causing malaria (plasmodium). This is an excellent example one single DNA mutation means an organism gains a completely new ability.
Just to add on, those with sickle cell trait (i.e. heterozygous individuals) are much more resistent to plasmodium than those without the trait. Thus, while sickle cell disease is detrimental, sickle cell trait is quite beneficial in parts of the world. Of course, this biogeographical relationship makes complete sense within the context of evolutionary theory. But under the creation model, sickle cell trait just happened to emerge in a population where it's beneficial.

If Bob Enyart writes new program, abiding rules of evolution, real ones, not fake ones, I guarantee in less than 10 years he will have many chains very similar or even identical to the Latin alphabet. I can bet him any money he wants.
Also just wanted to point out that such programs have been written (with different target outcomes), and they do not fit well with the creationist argument.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Morphy_ said:
As much as I appreciate Bob's economic and politic ideas as much I laugh out loud when I listen to his 'arguments' against evolution.

Unfortunately one more time Bob committed a anti-evolution talk show without any tenable arguments.

Let me deal with the most obvious yarns:

1. Sickle cell anemia. Bob, it's not about loosing any information. If you read some genetic books you'll learn it is caused by REPLACEMENT of thymine by adenine (parts of nucleotides). If thymine is replaced by adenine the triplet Cytosine - Adenine - Thymine (CAT) takes new form: Cytosine - Thymine - Thymine (CTT). Therefore mRNA codone created on a basis of DNA is GUA instead of GAA (G- guanosine, U - uridine, A- adenosine). Such mRNA is used by rybosomes as an instruction how to produce proteins from aminoacids. GUA codes Valine while GAA Glutamine thus replacement of thymine with adenine in DNA results in replacement of just one (among thousands if not millions) aminoacid. The improper aminoacid (Valine instead of Glutamine) deforms chain B of hemoglobin therefore it is less soluble in water and thus malformed red blood cells look a little bit like a crescent instead of a "tire".

There is no loosing any DNA - just replacement of one nucleotide with another. In fact it is gaining since adenine has a bigger molecule than thymine.

Bob Enyart always says evolution doesn't create new abilities and sickle cell anemia is an excellent example he is dead wrong: hemoglobine S (that's the name of the altered hemoglobine) has new ability: it has a different shape, it is 'sticky' thus it changes shape of a red blood cell what makes them resistant to germs causing malaria (plasmodium). This is an excellent example one single DNA mutation means an organism gains a completely new ability.
Morphy cannot even stay internally consistant in this part of his post. Johnny, you should be ashamed to back this guy up.

Bob said it is a disease of blacks - that's another lie, although I believe unintentional.
First, there is no such thing as an unintentional lie.

Second, go back and listen again, let us know the quote where Bob said it a "disease of blacks".

Hemoglobine S has many negative, disadvantageous featers but one huge ability: the red blood cell cannot be infected by plasmodium. Whites can have the disease as well, but there is one problem: it decreases chances of survival thus it exists only in areas where the disadvantage is counterbalanced by being free of malaria. In malaria -free areas sickle cell anemia is virtually wiped out by evolution (surival of the fittest gene). On the other hand in malaria infested areas sickle cell anemia is relatively common.

Bob compares hemoglobine S to loosing information, I would compare sickle cell anemia to rain tires (sickle cell anemia) and slicks (regular hemoglobine): rain tires are by far worse if there are dry conditions (no malaria in neibourghood), but are much better when a road is wet (epidemic of malaria). Replacing slicks with rain tires doesn't mean 'loosing information' it means 'changing' information.
And finally morphy ends his defense of diseases being the next great advancement in human evolution!

2. Bob thinks he mocks the theory of evolution with the program randomly casting letters in order to achieve an alphabet. Thus Bob Enyart uses liberals' favourite tactics: to say falsely that ridiculous idea is believed to be true by your enemy, mock it, then mock the believer and everything seems to be fine except for one thing: the idea is cosidered by your opponent false as well...

Bob's program has nothing to do with evolution since it is based on 2 false, ridiculous theses:
- evolution always starts a new, from the scratch (have you ever heard evolutionist saying reptiles and mammals evolved directly from amoebas completely independently?)
- there is no survival of the fittest (have you ever heard evolutionist saying anything like that?)

Thus what Bob Enyart is doing is claiming these false theories to be believed by evolutionists, mocks the theories and then mocks the evolutioninsts. Successful, truly, but devastatingly unfair.

This is how the program should be written:
1. It should cast chain of 24 letters in a specific order randomly.
2. If any of the letters is in the right place it must have higher 'survival rate' then others (survival of the fittest gene).
3. The code should 'multiple' (just like every living species can multiple).
4. There can be different rules of multiplying, let me propose one:
- every chain of 24 letters creates 10 copies, half of them identical, half of them (to speed up evolution) with mutations (2-3 letters different than original)
- if any chain of 24 letters has any letter in the right place it gets higher survival rate - like 20% more copies for every letter in the right place (for example: if a chain has no correct letters it gets 10 new copies, if it has 1 correct letter it gets 12 new copies, if 2 gets 14, 3 - 16 and so on).
- at the end of multiplying phase some chains must die (death is substantial for evolution, eternal life of all organisms means end of evolution) - let's say for the first 1000 turns there will be lower death rate (empty Earth), but later it should increase and reach a stable point - new chains should replace dying ones.
- "dying" rules: for every correct letter a chain should have 20% less risk of death (because good genes mean one can survive many threats like avoiding predators or finding more food).

If Bob Enyart writes new program, abiding rules of evolution, real ones, not fake ones, I guarantee in less than 10 years he will have many chains very similar or even identical to the Latin alphabet. I can bet him any money he wants.

There are several dozen yarns Bob span in his talk show. Suffice for me to discuss this 2 since it gives everyone an excellent example how untenable his theses are.
Morphy's rules of evolution are very accurate... as long the rules stay in Morphy's fantasy universe. If he thinks these rules correspond to reality, that would make him an unintentional liar. :chuckle:
 

fool

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
"quadrillions of universes filled with typeing monkeys"
These guys really don't get it.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Johnny said:
Could you elaborate?
You don't appear informative with your explanations about Sickle Cell, but smug. The rest of the world that isn't indoctrinated with evo is chased away the more you try to explain it. The reason is because it is just so bizarre. Step back and realize what you are saying: a great example of evolution is a debilitating disease? All mankind would need is a reproducing group that has Sickle Cell, Porphyria, and Krabbes Disease at the same time and we'd have stepped up to the next level of evolution!

Johnny, the bottom line is that Sickle Cell is not good. The reason they didn't get a bunch of men who had Sickle Cell to build the Panama canal was not because they weren't smart enough to utilize people that were immune to a disease that was slowing construction. It was because people with the disease can't do as much as healthy people. The people that can put 2 and 2 together realize that if this is a good example of evolution, that it cannot possibly work.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
fool said:
"quadrillions of universes filled with typeing monkeys"
These guys really don't get it.
"You're very clever, creationist, very clever," said fool. "But it's monkeys all the way down."
 

Johnny

New member
Yorzhik said:
You don't appear informative with your explanations about Sickle Cell, but smug.
I assure you any condescending tone was unintended (though I am at a loss to explain what exactly I said which sounded smug).

Yorzhik said:
The rest of the world that isn't indoctrinated with evo is chased away the more you try to explain it. The reason is because it is just so bizarre.
That's because you do not understand. How do I know you don't understand? Your next statement.

Yorzhik said:
Step back and realize what you are saying: a great example of evolution is a debilitating disease?
Let me clarify here, because you're missing some vital information. There is a difference between sickle cell disease and sickle cell trait. Sickle cell disease is what is called an "autosomal recessive" disease. This means that you must have two copies of the abnormal gene to express the disease pattern. If you only have one copy of the abnormal gene, and one copy of the normal gene, then you have what is called sickle cell trait.

People who have sickle cell trait are merely carriers. Remember that they have one normal hemoglobin gene, and one abnormal gene. They do not present with any symptoms or illness like those with sickle cell disease. However, those with sickle cell trait are resistant to malaria. So what we have is a population of people who are not negatively affected by sickle cell trait, but are resistant to malaria. What's the cost/benefit ratio for a population? Because sickle cell disease is autosomal recessive, only one out of every four children from parents with sickle cell trait will have sickle cell disease. However, two out of every four children will be resistant to malaria and will show no signs of sickle cell disease, and one child will have normal hemoglobin. So one out of four children will likely die young, three out of four will have normal blood cells, and two out of three will be resistant to malaria. Thus, sickle cell trait confers a survival advantage in regions where malaria is endemic, even at the cost of deaths because of sickle cell disease. Remember, natural selection acts on populations, not individuals.
 
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Morphy

New member
Johnny said:
Of course, this biogeographical relationship makes complete sense within the context of evolutionary theory. But under the creation model, sickle cell trait just happened to emerge in a population where it's beneficial.

Thus, as far as logic and fairness is concerned, you're admiting sickle cell anemia should not be used as a weapon against evolution. Moreover it's an excellent example the theory of evolution may be true...

Johnny said:
Also just wanted to point out that such programs have been written (with different target outcomes), and they do not fit well with the creationist argument.

So why haven't Bob put one of them on his web site?
As I pointed the present program is based on faked ideas that are really stupid, but they're not shared by evolutionists...

Fairness demands to discuss REAL ideas we believe in not faked ones, am I right?
 

Morphy

New member
Yorzhik said:
Morphy cannot even stay internally consistant in this part of his post. Johnny, you should be ashamed to back this guy up.

Could you tell me WHERE exactly I'm inconsistent? Avoid general remarks, just say where exactly. That will help us to discuss instead of talking like leftists like: smearing each other.

Yorzhik said:
First, there is no such thing as an unintentional lie.
How do you call something was is not true? It's untrue, it's lie.
Ancient Greeks did really believe the Earth was flat and when they claim it they did lie although unintentionaly.


Yorzhik said:
Second, go back and listen again, let us know the quote where Bob said it a "disease of blacks".

When listen to Bob's show one more time I'll quote exactly. He said it is blacks who are affected by the disease.

Yorzhik said:
Morphy's rules of evolution are very accurate... as long the rules stay in Morphy's fantasy universe. If he thinks these rules correspond to reality, that would make him an unintentional liar. :chuckle:

I see you really appreciate the way leftists hold debates: smear each other, insult as much as possible, but NEVER use an argument.
Your last 2 sentences lack of any argument but are full of insults.

Which rule specifically isn't accurate? Can you point out, or just prefer to say, like a kid in a sandpit: 'you're stupid anyhow!"?
 

Johnny

New member
Morphy_ said:
Thus, as far as logic and fairness is concerned, you're admiting sickle cell anemia should not be used as a weapon against evolution. Moreover it's an excellent example the theory of evolution may be true...
It is truly an excellent example as it is one of the most recent observable selectional pressures on our species. Nonetheless, a rudimentary knowledge of inheritance patterns is required before one can fully appreciate how this trait confers advantage. As we have seen, the disease is often confused with the trait--leaving people wondering how a disease confers any sort of advantage. In terms of a populational cost/benefit ratio, the benefits of the trait outweigh the cost of the disease--which is why the penetrance of the allele is extremely high.

Morphy_ said:
So why haven't Bob put one of them on his web site?
It does not help him.

Morphy_ said:
Fairness demands to discuss REAL ideas we believe in not faked ones, am I right?
Indeed, his program is a blatant strawman for him to knock down.
 

Morphy

New member
Yorzhik said:
You don't appear informative with your explanations about Sickle Cell, but smug. The rest of the world that isn't indoctrinated with evo is chased away the more you try to explain it. The reason is because it is just so bizarre. Step back and realize what you are saying: a great example of evolution is a debilitating disease? All mankind would need is a reproducing group that has Sickle Cell, Porphyria, and Krabbes Disease at the same time and we'd have stepped up to the next level of evolution!

Well, Yorzhik, at least you resort to discussion instead of insults. That's progress. ;)

To the point: you didn't understand my point. What I said was: the sickle cell anemia is an excellent example DNA is vulnerable to mutations (spontanic changes) and if they are profitable in any way (if they give new profitable abilities) such genes remain in population.

This is also a proof that spontanic mutation CAN CREATE NEW ABILITIES, while Bob's main argument against evolution is they cannot...

BTW: this is to Bob as well: do you know why evolutionists resort to diseases in order to explain evolution? Because due to medicine progress we discovered exact genetic modifications - and every time new genetic disease is investigated it strongly supports the theory of evolution. It doesn't mean we're fans of diseases: we simply use the best known genetic knowledge a man has.

If you provide us with genetic code of eyes from Procaryota to mammals I will be able to explain you how has the human eye evolved. But do you have complete genetic codes of all human ancestors from the prehistoric cells? No? So don't be surprised we resort to well known facts instead of talking vaguely like leftists.
 

Morphy

New member
Johnny said:
It does not help him.[Bob]

It's amazing how Bob Enyart can be so bright as far as economics is concerned and how terribly wrong and UNFAIR if it is about evolution...
 

Bob Enyart

Deceased
Staff member
Administrator
Sickle Cell is an Excellent Example... Yes it Is!

Sickle Cell is an Excellent Example... Yes it Is!

Dear Morphy and Johnny,

Morphy, of course you reinforce my argument that evolutionists are so desperate for examples of evolution, that they point to diseases caused by mutation as excellent examples of Darwinism, as when you wrote, “sickle cell anemia is an excellent example” of “evolution… creat[ing] new abilities.” When you use common genetic terms that are nonetheless unfamiliar to most readers, they may be impressed by your detailed account of sickle cell mutation, and think that somewhere hidden in the apoptosis, uracils and codons lies a defense of your assertion that sickle cell mutation is really an information increase and a change toward improvement in the human genome. Creationists don’t deny mutations. We don’t deny genetic recombinations, insertions, deletions, transpositions, substitutions, etc. We don’t deny that when such mutations occur, they can CHANGE the phenotype (tires to crescents). We argue evolution requires billions of instances of genetic information INCREASE and IMPROVEMENT and we crack up when evolutionists endlessly parade examples of mutation-caused disease as excellent examples of evolution. HIV uses CCR5 (Cysteine-cystenie chemokine receptor 5) as a vector, and mutation CCR5-delta32 (deletion of 32 sequential base-pairs) makes CCR5 unavailable to HIV, thus providing immunity to AIDS, etc. But the gene that codes for CCR5 seems to be redundant, so that other genes replace its function, giving another example of a breakdown with a fortuitous consequence (like the house fire which burst a water pipe which put out the fire). Scientists have documented about 10,000 disease-causing mutations, but none involving increased genetic information. And it’s not true that insertions, substitutions, transpositions, etc., that break functionality are an increase in the genome, that’s something you’re just going to have to come to terms with.


By the way, I have carefully read a book, Not By Chance, by Dr. Lee Spetner, who has a place in the history of genetics for being the first to publish the mutation rates of various organisms. He explains with fascinating detail the mutation/disease process (what has been learned so far). The book is a tutorial on genetic processes, demonstrating that random mutations could not conceivably improve the operation of wildly complicated, complex interconnected systems.

-Bob Enyart
 

Johnny

New member
Bob Enyart said:
Scientists have documented about 10,000 disease-causing mutations, but none involving increased genetic information. And it’s not true that insertions, substitutions, transpositions, etc., that break functionality are an increase in the genome, that’s something you’re just going to have to come to terms with.
Bob, you need to define what an increase in genetic information constitutes. Looking at any point mutation, how can we tell if the information has increased or decreased in the genome? So I ask you, if you are going to post again, please elaborate on what set of criteria I can apply to any mutation to see if the information has increased or decreased.

Bob Enyart said:
and think that somewhere hidden in the apoptosis, uracils and codons lies a defense of your assertion that sickle cell mutation is really an information increase and a change toward improvement in the human genome.
It's really simple, actually. The HbS allele confers malarial resistence to erythrocytes, thus providing a survival advantage for the population which carries the allele which would not normally exist if the population did not carry the allele. In short, more people survive to the age of reproduction with the HbS allele than would without it--even if we assume that one out of every four live births has sickle cell disease. That is evolution. Evolution is not about "an increase in information". It's about reproductive advantage. An allele which reproduces itself more often than another allele will find its frequency in a population increased as a function of time. Evolution. This business about increasing information or loss of information is just creationist fodder--which we will see when you define an "increase in information".
 
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Bob Enyart

Deceased
Staff member
Administrator
Johnny: "Evolution is not about 'an increase in information'"

Johnny: "Evolution is not about 'an increase in information'"

Johnny said:
Evolution is not about "an increase in information".
Johnny, I accept your surrender.

-Bob Enyart

2013 UPDATE: One of the world's leading evolutionary microbiologists, Franklin Harold, admits in 2001 that, "We must concede there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations." This update was also posted at the RSR show summary from back when Johnny called in, at http://kgov.com/bad-legs-before-good-wings. -BE
 
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