ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

[musterion]

If by this it is meant that all that are genuinely saved will repent, then, yes, sure it is.

It's asked from the standpoint of those (not myself or other MADs) who make repent = stop sinning, thereby making "stop sinning" a condition or requirement of being saved along with believing the Gospel (assuming they're even preaching the true Gospel, which they often don't).

In other words, a sinner cannot believe, repent, accept the gospel and come to Christ unless God first sovereignly and graciously gives that sinner new life by the power of his Word and Spirit (as in Eze. 36:26).

And we both already know where that leads: to a slandering of the character of God when He damns for unbelief those He did not chose to quicken unto belief.

On the other hand if it is meant that a person somehow is able to muster up repentance all by themselves, then, the answer is no.

But that is exactly what LS says to everyone who hears or reads an LS presentation of the gospel. I need not tell you how common "Be willing to turn from your sin AND believe the gospel" is these days.

Granted, LS is Calvinistic and so assumes the person 'really' believing has been enabled to do so by God, while those are 'seem' to believe but really aren't have a spurious faith. But the bottom line, either way, is it adds "stop sinning" to faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection AS a condition of salvation, both before and after belief (i.e., fruit inspectors). That's one problem. The other is misdefining repent as "stop sinning" instead of simply "change of mind" as the word literally means.

It is God who grants repentance, not man. Repentance is a Divine gift.

Disagree because, yet again, for the hundredth time, we have a major theological problem if that's true -- God damning people for something they're not doing when He chose not to enable them to do it.

 

[Interplanner]

It's asked from the standpoint of those (not myself or other MADs) who make repent = stop sinning, thereby making "stop sinning" a condition or requirement of being saved along with believing the Gospel (assuming they're even preaching the true Gospel, which they often don't).



And we both already know where that leads: to a slandering of the character of God when He damns for unbelief those He did not chose to quicken unto belief.



But that is exactly what LS says to everyone who hears or reads an LS presentation of the gospel. I need not tell you how common "Be willing to turn from your sin AND believe the gospel" is these days.

Granted, LS is Calvinistic and so assumes the person 'really' believing has been enabled to do so by God, while those are 'seem' to believe but really aren't have a spurious faith. But the bottom line, either way, is it adds "stop sinning" to faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection AS a condition of salvation, both before and after belief (i.e., fruit inspectors). That's one problem. The other is misdefining repent as "stop sinning" instead of simply "change of mind" as the word literally means.



Disagree because, yet again, for the hundredth time, we have a major theological problem if that's true -- God damning people for something they're not doing when He chose not to enable them to do it.

Preach what Christ did and let the humans response to that take care of itself. there is no perfect one.

 

[musterion]

Preach what Christ did

You mean deny His own dispensation of grace to all men by butchering Jews in AD 70, just as Mormons say He wiped out people in N. America? Is that the demonic false "Christ" you talking about, demon?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Regeneration (quickening) precedes faith and repentance

No, a person is regenerated when he receives life and that happens when he believes:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

According to the false teaching of the Calvinists a person receives life and is therefore regenerated before he believes!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Meaning they won't be sinning?

No, that is not what it means. When it comes to our standing before God we are raised up together with Christ and are sitting in heavenly places with Him (Eph.2:6) and our lives are hidden with Him (Col.3:3).

Besides that, Christians already possess eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom He has given eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28).

We also know that the eternal life enjoyed by Christians is described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23) and the gifts of the Lord are without repentance (Ro.11:29). Besides that, here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe and therefore have eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Despite all of these facts you continue to insist that a Christian can actually perish. We have been given the gift of eternal life and the Lord Jesus will not take back that gift but according to your ideas He does. The Lord Jesus promises that those who have eternal life will not come into judgment but you say that they can.

Besides that, once a person comes to Christ he will always be with Him:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

But you deny all of this!

 

[Derf]

No, that is not what it means. When it comes to our standing before God we are raised up together with Christ and are sitting in heavenly places with Him (Eph.2:6) and our lives are hidden with Him (Col.3:3).

Besides that, Christians already possess eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom He has given eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28).

We also know that the eternal life enjoyed by Christians is described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23) and the gifts of the Lord are without repentance (Ro.11:29). Besides that, here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe and therefore have eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Despite all of these facts you continue to insist that a Christian can actually perish. We have been given the gift of eternal life and the Lord Jesus will not take back that gift but according to your ideas He does. The Lord Jesus promises that those who have eternal life will not come into judgment but you say that they can.

Besides that, once a person comes to Christ he will always be with Him:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

But you deny all of this!

You didn't answer my question. Will we be sinning or not sinning for all eternity?

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[Jerry Shugart]

You didn't answer my question. Will we be sinning or not sinning for all eternity?

That's not what you asked. To answer your question, we will not be sinning for all eternity. Now answer a question for me. Do you think that once a person is given eternal life he can perish?

 

[Interplanner]

You didn't answer my question. Will we be sinning or not sinning for all eternity?

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No we won't. "We will be like him for we will see him as he is."

 

[Auxbox]

No, a person is regenerated when he receives life and that happens when he believes:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

According to the false teaching of the Calvinists a person receives life and is therefore regenerated before he believes!

The truth that one must continue on believing to have life in the name of Christ does not nullify the fact that one must receive life before they can believe. John 20:31 says that that eternal life consists of "believing", that is ongoing, faith. That's Galatians 2:20 - "The life I now live, I live by faith in the Son

There is a difference between the life of divine fellowship that believers enjoy through continued believing in Jesus Christ; and the life that God unilaterally gives to dead sinners who are called according to his purposes.

I believe there is generally a misconception about what regeneration is, or how it happens, that causes these discussions to swirl into confusion. Also the fact that 'faith' is such a broadly employed term. The relation of the two terms, regeneration and faith; are very very close.

Regeneration does not come after faith; the arguments on the grounds that people cannot have saving faith before they are born of God are valid I think. People may have a sort of faith or an openness to the idea of God maybe, but the faith that justifies them before almighty God does not come from within a person prior to regeneration.

Regeneration also does not precede faith in the sense that some think, where you have a regenerated person who somehow is without justifying faith for a time.

It does precede faith though in that it is something God does to a person prior to his or her first exercise of faith which results in justification.






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[Jerry Shugart]

The truth that one must continue on believing to have life in the name of Christ does not nullify the fact that one must receive life before they can believe.

I never said that a person receives life before they can believe.

 

[Crucible]

Being destined for eternal life is not synonymous with having eternal life.

That's simply an intellectual sin of an Arminian failing to understand Calvinism

 

[Auxbox]

I never said that a person receives life before they can believe.

Correct. You said that John 20:30-31 nullifies the notion that men must be given life in order to believe in Christ.

I said that John 20:31 does not necessarily negate the fact that men receive life before they believe and are justified, contra your assertion.


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[Auxbox]

In other words, a sinner cannot believe, repent, accept the gospel and come to Christ unless God first sovereignly and graciously gives that sinner new life by the power of his Word and Spirit (as in Eze. 36:26). After that regenerative event, the person will not not want to believe and repent.

Your final line is key. Those who reject irresistible grace misunderstand, in my opinion, that men who see Christ rightly by the work of the Holy Spirit have nothing to object about; he is at that point everything the heart could desire; and even more so to the heart who has been made to know both its ruinous estate and to whom it must give an account on the day of reckoning. I sometimes think about the I in TULIP as Irresistible Savior



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[Jerry Shugart]

Correct. You said that John 20:30-31 nullifies the notion that men must be given life in order to believe in Christ.

I said that John 20:31 does not necessarily negate the fact that men receive life before they believe and are justified, contra your assertion.

Again, John 20:31 reveals that no one receives life before believing. That means that prior to believing a person does not have life.

But you say that men receive life before they believe. That idea is contradicted by John's words at John 20:31.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Ours is an Alien Righteousness

Ours is an Alien Righteousness

Justification is not an experience as such, like the others. That is why Luther called it the 'alien righteousness.'

Indeed.

In Romans 5 Paul is not speaking about man's actual sin after Adam. Paul is not saying we become sinners by sinning. Rather, we sin because we are sinners from birth. For if every person contracts his own guilt by becoming a sinner by sinning, then one wonders why Paul in Romans 5 bothers to form a comparison between Adam and Christ. After all, if the claim is that we contract our own guilt by sinning, then the same logic must lead one to claim that we contract our own righteousness by being righteous! Paul is certainly not teaching such a terrible Pelagian scheme.

Rather, in Romans 5 the symmetry of Paul's comparison between fallen Adam's innate corruption and Our Lord's innate righteousness, and the respective imputations of our sin upon Christ and Christ's righteousness upon man, is inescapable. Given what Paul has actually written, comparing Adam and Our Lord, it follows that our innate and hereditary depravity and our Lord's innate and hereditary righteousness, imputed to us, is what is being referred to in Romans 5.

Ours is an alien righteousness, that of another, Our Lord.

AMR

 

[Nang]

I sometimes think about the I in TULIP as Irresistible Savior

That is because Jesus Christ is the very source of Irresistible Grace. :cloud9:

 

[Lon]

Granted, LS is Calvinistic and so assumes the person 'really' believing has been enabled to do so by God, while those are 'seem' to believe but really aren't have a spurious faith. But the bottom line, either way, is it adds "stop sinning" to faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection AS a condition of salvation, both before and after belief (i.e., fruit inspectors). That's one problem. The other is misdefining repent as "stop sinning" instead of simply "change of mind" as the word literally means.

Disagree because, yet again, for the hundredth time, we have a major theological problem if that's true -- God damning people for something they're not doing when He chose not to enable them to do it.

I don't believe LS the way MacArthur laid it out. He advocates volitionally going against one's nature, and if sin, then not saved. I wholly believe in the concept of new creation. It drives my theology. Simply: A new creation is already new-made to follow Christ. Though we are constantly encouraged in scripture to follow Christ, I yet believe a new nature cannot but help walking accordingly: Thus, Jesus is Lord. The thief on the cross was transformed, not just conformed. In most passages where a warning is given, 'we are confident of you' follows.

Thus, for me, the very test of Lordship is already ingrained in the one saved by Grace. -Lon

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jerry Redoubles His Previously Laid Waste Efforts

Jerry Redoubles His Previously Laid Waste Efforts

Again, John 20:31 reveals that no one receives life before believing. That means that prior to believing a person does not have life.

But you say that men receive life before they believe. That idea is contradicted by John's words at John 20:31.

With you, Jerry, it is as if you have never been responded to on this very point. You just beebop along and repeat the same thing.

Go back and read Auxbox's post carefully:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...st-w-o-works&p=4954589&viewfull=1#post4954589

Then go way back and read what you have been given in response by others to your repeated use of the same passage:

1. http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Open-Theists&p=4887532&viewfull=1#post4887532
2. http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Open-Theists&p=4888293&viewfull=1#post4888293
3. http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ch-is-of-God&p=4886893&viewfull=1#post4886893

Anyone new on the scene here should exercise caution in interacting with Jerry. He refuses to remember what he has seen in responses by others and just repeats himself and declares victory. After a time, it will become obvious that it is wasting one's time to devote much effort to moving Jerry off the only script he has in his toolbox.

Of course given Jerry's other oddities, his misunderstanding of John 20:31 is not to be unexpected:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestination&p=4950779&viewfull=1#post4950779
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?74351-Our-triune-God&p=4359841&viewfull=1#post4359841

Sigh.

AMR

 

[glorydaz]

Go back and read Auxbox's post carefully:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...st-w-o-works&p=4954589&viewfull=1#post4954589


AMR

Hi AMR. :wave:

This quote from the person you cited shows me that even those the most convinced of what they claim, don't actually know for a fact. The timing of believing and regeneration could just as easily be, as so many of us claim, instantaneous. It's the power of the Gospel that gives knowledge and light...being touched by God and filled with the Spirit. Personally, I think it's a distinction with no real difference...."may" and "maybe" and a "sort of faith".

"People may have a sort of faith or an openness to the idea of God , maybe but the faith that justifies them before almighty God does not come from within a person prior to regeneration."​

What I can know for sure is what happened to me...the moment I first believed.

 

[TulipBee]

Don't pay much attention to jerry