ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

[musterion]

It's an requirement to be saved to turn ones life

You've got a bad processor, Calvinist.

•If you can only believe because God elected you to believe, your life was already turned when you were quickened and enabled to believe. You couldn't do it and you didn't do it. He did.

•If one has not been elected, then they can't possibly turn their life which (according to you) is actually 100% spiritual death. They CAN'T do it.

Either way, "turn your life to be saved" is an impossibility for EVERYONE if Calvinism is true.

Your self-refutation is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So the answer to your question is: Of course, there is nobody that will be saved in the end that has not stopped sinning in the end.

So once someone believes and receives eternal life then he can perish?

Christians already possess eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says this about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

We also know that the eternal life enjoyed by Christians is described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23) and the gifts of the Lord are without repentance (Ro.11:29). Besides that, here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe and therefore have eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Despite all of these facts you continue to insist that a Christian can actually perish. We have been given the gift of eternal life and the Lord Jesus will not take back that gift but according to your ideas He does. The Lord Jesus promises that those who have eternal life will not come into judgment but you say that they can.

Besides that, once a person comes to Christ he will always be with Him:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

For some reason you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[musterion]

The context, if you read it, is about whether all that are saved will stop sinning, willingly. Your poll question seemed to be about stopping of sin and its correspondence to salvation. Here is your poll question again: Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved?



I asked a couple of responders to my posts about whether we will be sinning for eternity or not. Here are their replies:




Thinking through logically, I believe all here would agree that we will not be sinning for all eternity. And salvation is about living for eternity with Christ, isn't it? ([1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.)

So the answer to your question is: Of course, there is nobody that will be saved in the end that has not stopped sinning in the end.

John seems to think so: [Rev 21:8 KJV] 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Peter seems to think so: [1Pe 1:15 KJV] 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; AND [1Pe 2:1, 24 KJV] 1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, ... 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. AND [1Pe 4:17-18 KJV] 17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Jude seems to think so: [Jde 1:18-19 KJV] 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

The author of Hebrews seems to think so: [Heb 10:26 KJV] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Paul seems to think so: [1Ti 1:9-11 KJV] 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

AND [1Co 5:11 KJV] 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

And we know what James thinks.

All these writers seemed to indicate that those kind of activities are not what God desires for us. And no one will be doing those things in heaven. Will this be forced? Will God turn us into robots? I think we're all in agreement that we are all going to be sinless in heaven and we will want to be that way.

So when does it happen? Is it an instantaneous thing that we suddenly both have the ability to be sinless and also WANT/WILL to be sinless at the time of our resurrection? Maybe, but if so, then those epistles mentioned above are pretty meaningless to us, don't you think? If they are telling us that people who do those things are not allowed in, and we are doing those things purposefully and willfully, are we ready to have such an abrupt change in our will--is that really free will or is that forced on us at that instant.

Sanctification has been described to me as the process by which we are made more like Christ. And it's a lifelong process, or at least lifelong as long as we are Christians. If true, then it seems to be that God is preparing us all our Christian lives to be able to enter His presence without wanting/willing to sin. When does sanctification start? I'd say it starts at least as early as when we are justified--certainly not any later. Some would likely say it starts earlier, and I'm inclined to agree with them, though not necessarily for the same reasons.

Can we agree that sanctification starts the moment we are justified?

So if we agree on that point, that sanctification starts at least as early as justification, and sanctification is the process of being made more like Christ, and Christ was always willing to do the will of the Father, how can we say that a willingness to repent is something that is far away in time from being "saved", which I think is used in the same way as I am using "justified"?

Some of you may have seen some of my conversation on this thread earlier, asking about whether someone who is "saved" can become "unsaved". I guess I have a hard time pinpointing when we are saved unless it is at the moment when we are resurrected (like my quote of 1 Pet 1:5, above), but I understand the concept. According to the answers I received, most of you on this thread seem to believe in the security of the believer.

Spoiler

Let's put those two thoughts together:
A true believer is one who will end up with Christ for eternity.
All true believers will be sinless in eternity.
All true believers will be like Christ in eternity, wanting to do the will of the Father.
That process starts at least as early as when a person "gets saved".

This is backed up by Jesus, who said: [Jhn 14:15 NIV] 15 "If you love me, keep my commands."
By John, who said: [1Jo 2:3, 5-6 NIV] 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. ... 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
By Paul, who acknowledged that the new creation we hope for in eternity is already here: [2Co 5:17 NIV] 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! [2Co 6:1, 14, 17 NIV] 1 As God's co-workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. ... 14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? ... 17 Therefore, "Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."
By the author of Hebrews: [Heb 10:26, 36 KJV] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, ... 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
By Peter: [1Pe 1:2 NIV] 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
By Jude: [Jde 1:24 NIV] 24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--

Admittedly we are not able to save ourselves from sin, either the penalty or the commission or sin. But salvation seems to be all about being WILLING to not sin. And no one who doesn't agree with that will be saved, imo.

And we all know how James feels about it: [Jas 1:15, 20-22 NIV] 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. ... 20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

So how long have you been a universal salvationist?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Careful, lest 'our belief' saves us. It is rather the work of Christ that saves us, agree?

Of course no one could possibly be saved if it were not for the death of the Lord Jesus. But do you agree that in order to be saved a person must first believe, as witnessed by the answer given by Paul and those with him?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Jn.16:30-31).​

Besides that, when you read what is said at John 20:31 do you agree that it is saying that faith results in "life"?

If not, then please give me your interpretation of the meaning of that verse.

 

[Lon]

Let's nail this down.

The way he laid it out back in the '90s (and he didn't invent it, btw, it's been around a LONG time) set the tone for a lot of ministries in the years following, including the one I had the misfortune of being saved in back in college.

Hard core LS folks say,

(a) the unbeliever must "repent" [be willing to turn from sin] as well as believe the Gospel (Sproul, Washer, pretty much all Reformed, plus Ray Comfort, Jack Chick) and
(b) the believer must continue to "repent" in order to "make their calling and election sure." 1 Jn 1:9, etc

See, THAT is what LS is really about...reducing "false conversions" of the lost, thereby proving as much as possible the election, thus the salvation, of those who believe. How? By misdefining repent as "stop sinning." That's where you get so many on TOL saying "If you don't stop sinning, you aren't/won't be saved."

But it all boils down to works added to the Cross.

Not exactly: The Calvinist believes that the day you called wasn't the only day of Salvation and it makes a huge difference to what one extrapolates after that. Calvinists aren't LS as if we have to do a work to get saved. That too would be problematic for Calvinists as well. Rather, what they are saying is, that as new creations, our nature is new-made in a turned-about state. Sometimes it really is just not explaining things correctly, I believe. In a nutshell, due to my salvation, I am in a state that seeks Christ. There is a nature that desires Him, at new birth.

The question then of whether I need to repent or not has to be understood as being vague enough to apply to "My efforts" vs. "His work." MAD doesn't tend to focus on the New Creation as a doctrine. I'm not saying it isn't in MAD theology, I'm saying it isn't talked about much. It'd really help others if you/they did, however. I think it'd help us know with more certainty where we agree and where we may disagree. I 'think' I get it, but I'm not sure most others do. For my part, a lot of arguing isn't necessary on TOL, but that's just me. The rest needs better discussion and it ain't easy, as you well know. In Him -Lon

 

[musterion]

Careful, lest 'our belief' saves us. It is rather the work of Christ that saves us, agree?

False dichotomy, Lon. That's your Calvinism talking, particularly the letters T and I.

 

[musterion]

Not exactly: The Calvinist believes that the day you called wasn't the only day of Salvation and it makes a huge difference to what one extrapolates after that. Calvinists aren't LS as if we have to do a work to get saved. That too would be problematic for Calvinists as well. Rather, what they are saying is, that as new creations, our nature is new-made in a turned-about state. Sometimes it really is just not explaining things correctly, I believe. In a nutshell, due to my salvation, I am in a state that seeks Christ. There is a nature that desires Him, at new birth.

The question then of whether I need to repent or not has to be understood as being vague enough to apply to "My efforts" vs. "His work." MAD doesn't tend to focus on the New Creation as a doctrine. I'm not saying it isn't in MAD theology, I'm saying it isn't talked about much. It'd really help others if you/they did, however. I think it'd help us know with more certainty where we agree and where we may disagree. I 'think' I get it, but I'm not sure most others do. For my part, a lot of arguing isn't necessary on TOL, but that's just me. The rest needs better discussion and it ain't easy, as you well know. In Him -Lon

Lon,

LS is all about proving the unprovable: that one is Elect.

 

[musterion]

John Piper, LS proponent, wrote,

The Bible makes it plain, I believe, that people who persistently refuse the command of Jesus’ lordship have no warrant for believing that they are saved.

Well that's there's a PARRFUL statement! But just what does he mean by "the command of Jesus' lordship"? Read on...

Such people should not be comforted that they are saved simply because there was a time when they “believed” gospel facts or walked an aisle or signed a card or prayed a prayer. In fact, Jesus seems far more eager to explode the assurance of false “professions of faith” than he is to give assurance to people who are intent on living in sin. Where does he ever bolster the “eternal security” of a person unwilling to forsake sin?

Do you see anything biblically wrong with what Piper teaches, Lon?

 

[Lon]

Of course no one could possibly be saved if it were not for the death of the Lord Jesus. But do you agree that in order to be saved a person must first believe, as witnessed by the answer given by Paul and those with him?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Jn.16:30-31).​

Besides that, when you read what is said at John 20:31 do you agree that it is saying that faith results in "life"?

If not, then please give me your interpretation of the meaning of that verse.

Your question though, has us back to the same square all over again. I agree with you that somewhere belief comes into salvation somewhere. I used to think, like you, that it was moment of my salvation BUT, that was more of my perceptions rather than recognizing what Jesus was doing to save me. Truly, from before the world began, Christ started a work to save us. I HAVE to count that day in my salvation story too. I think you realize that, I'm just saying our lingo and concepts often get in the way of true communication. Imho, I have come to think that it is more important to answer questions with scriptures rather than my thoughts behind them. We can't altogether get away from collating scripture in a systematic way, but I try more often than not, to answer with the scriptures (whether I fail or succeed). -Lon Hebrew 3:12-19

 

[Danoh]

John Piper, LS proponent, wrote,



Well that's there's a PARRFUL statement! But just what does he mean by "the command of Jesus' lordship"? Read on...



Do you see anything biblically wrong with what Piper teaches, Lon?

Scripture does teach Lordship Salvation - to the one nation in Scripture who's Lord He was, but Who THEY had turned FROM.

Thus the call to THEM to turn FROM their idolatry and turn BACK TO the LORD God of THEIR fathers.

Isaiah 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the a s s his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isaiah 42:17 They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

Jeremiah 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.

Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Jeremiah 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Amen Israel!

 

[Lon]

John Piper, LS proponent, wrote,



Well that's there's a PARRFUL statement! But just what does he mean by "the command of Jesus' lordship"? Read on...



Do you see anything biblically wrong with what Piper teaches, Lon?

As I said, I disagree with MacArthur and Piper.

Lon,

LS is all about proving the unprovable: that one is Elect.

Yes, I believe you are correct.
I am not a fruit inspector when it comes to works. We may have to do it as concerning doctrine, but that is more about not fellowshipping with them. We also may have to disfellowship, but again, that isn't judging them, it is rather being obedient for our assembly. His or her salvation, I agree with you, is between they and the Lord. We can encourage one another. I surely would say as Paul: All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable as well as encouraging one to shine their light before men. We had a young man in youth group. I had to ask him to be dismissed as a youth leader but that man is walking with the Lord Jesus Christ today and has a powerful witness. It was never my job to judge his faith, just his service effectiveness (anecdotal, but may help with discussion). In Him -Lon

 

[intojoy]

Does one make Christ the lord of every aspect of their life the moment they believe? No.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nihilo]

Does one make Christ the lord of every aspect of their life the moment they believe? No.

But does Christ make Himself the Lord of every aspect of our lives, in His own good time and not a moment sooner? I think that maybe the answer's more-or-less yes.

 

[musterion]

Does one make Christ the lord of every aspect of their life the moment they believe? No.

He bought and owns the believer, who is united with Him as their Life. That makes Him their Lord.

 

[Danoh]

He bought and owns the believer, who is united with Him as their Life. That makes Him their Lord.

Yep.

Israel: Lord and Saviour.

Body: Saviour and Lord.

 

[musterion]

The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake, then, of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past …

Nor is the Gospel a demand that you give up the world, that you give up your sins, that you break off bad habits, and try to cultivate good ones. You may do all these things, and yet never believe the Gospel and consequently never be saved at all.

- Harry Ironside, [FONT=&quot]What Is The Gospel?[/FONT]

 

[TulipBee]

You've got a bad processor, Calvinist.

•If you can only believe because God elected you to believe, your life was already turned when you were quickened and enabled to believe. You couldn't do it and you didn't do it. He did.

•If one has not been elected, then they can't possibly turn their life which (according to you) is actually 100% spiritual death. They CAN'T do it.

Either way, "turn your life to be saved" is an impossibility for EVERYONE if Calvinism is true.

Your self-refutation is the gift that keeps on giving.

Which calvinism? :

Calvinism Chart

1. Hyper-Calvinism

Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God. The Gospel should only preached to the elect. i.e. duty faith. and anti-missionary Belief in the five points is a prerequisite for true salvation, also known as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. Proponents: Joseph Hussey John Skepp and some English primitive Baptists.

2. Ultra High Calvinism

Beliefs: That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well– Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America

3. High Calvinism

Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink

4. Moderate Calvinism

Beliefs: That God does in some sense desires to save the reprobate, Infralapsarian in viewing God’s decrees. Affirms Common Grace. Proponents: John Calvin (some argue that he was a High-Calvinist), John Murray, RL Dabney

5. Low Calvinism

Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal

6. Lutheranism

Beliefs: That Calvinist over emphasize God Sovereignty over man’s responsibility. That Christ died for all in legal sense, that some are predestined on to life but none are predestined onto death. That the sacraments are means of grace regardless of one’s faith. Proponents: Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Rod Rosenbladt

7. American Baptist

Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. Once a persons believes the gospel, he is eternally secure. Rejects Calvinism, some would even call it heretical. Proponents: Jerry Falwell, Adrian Rogers

8. Arminianism

Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is solely based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. A person can fall from the state of grace i.e. lose ones salvation, since it is our free will that chooses Christ at conversion. Proponents: Jacob Arminius, John Wesley some Methodists

copyright Rev Jonathan James Goundry

 

[Derf]

So once someone believes and receives eternal life then he can perish?

Christians already possess eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says this about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

We also know that the eternal life enjoyed by Christians is described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23) and the gifts of the Lord are without repentance (Ro.11:29). Besides that, here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe and therefore have eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Despite all of these facts you continue to insist that a Christian can actually perish. We have been given the gift of eternal life and the Lord Jesus will not take back that gift but according to your ideas He does. The Lord Jesus promises that those who have eternal life will not come into judgment but you say that they can.

Besides that, once a person comes to Christ he will always be with Him:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

For some reason you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

I'm not sure what men you think I'm putting my faith in. Maybe you can point out where I quoted men in my post, barring those that wrote scripture.

And if you'll read the post, I granted your response and Lon's (in the spoiler). For my part, I see enough things in the scripture that indicate an unrepentant person will not be with Christ for eternity that I at least question what it means.

That's why I'm wondering--that's why I asked the question earlier.

What I'm saying here is that if you're arguing with me, and I'm agreeing with you (on that one point), then it seems like you are arguing with yourself. Go for it, if it helps you in some way.

 

[Derf]

So how long have you been a universal salvationist?

I appreciate you re-asking the question. If my post didn't help you to understand my position, perhaps you can rephrase your question so I can understand it better.

Thanks.

 

[Nihilo]

Which calvinism? :

Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God.

Almost. I used to believe God is the author of sin and man has responsibility before God. I based my Calvinism on Luther's Bondage of the Will. Then I became a Unitarian, and then an atheist and then a Muslim and now a Christian.