program

[Totton Linnet]

thank you for that explanation
and
I now have a better understanding as to what the fuss is all about

See if you can see this too,

What was so great about Calvin was that he did not therefore foolishly dismiss Predestiny and Election as so many do...they are GLORIOUS doctrines...it is where the doctrine of eternal security comes from, OSAS, for the thing is predetermined, WE were chosen by God, we did not choose Him. [obviously whether others are saved or not, in order for us to be conformed to the image of God's Son we must first be saved]

OK

So what happens if we take the glorious doctrines OUT of the bible, pretend that they do not exist?

Then you have to find some other ground or reason as to why God would choose us.

Because we are good and saintly, we are obedient, because we chose Him. Our salvation and blessing now depends upon US and not God. This is where all these arguments come from...this is why we fight so fiercely.

 

[IMJerusha]

So what happens if we take the glorious doctrines OUT of the bible, pretend that they do not exist?

Then you have to find some other ground or reason as to why God would choose us.

Because we are good and saintly, we are obedient, because we chose Him. Our salvation and blessing now depends upon US and not God. This is where all these arguments come from...this is why we fight so fiercely.

And therein lies the problem. Some of our doctrine is spot on because it is rooted in Scripture uninterpreted. That can't be removed. Beyond that you are not understanding that God has placed terms on our salvation via His Covenant and Yeshua spelled those terms out to us (John 15:1-16:1, Matthew 7:21, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:12-15). Think of the Covenant as a contract which is what it is. Only through Yeshua's sacrifice may one come to salvation. By Him, the contract between God and man is in place. First and foremost we must agree to accept the contract. Secondly, if we don't then abide by the terms of that contract, we break it just as surely as the first Covenant was broken and in that breaking is the loss of our salvation. It's not that Yeshua didn't do His part. It's that we're not doing our part.

 

[chrysostom]

So what happens if we take the glorious doctrines OUT of the bible, pretend that they do not exist?

they don't exist
they are not in the bible
they are man made

 

[Totton Linnet]

Augustine saw them

According as He hath elected us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Christ Jesus to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.

Eph.1.4-5

here

 

[chrysostom]

Augustine saw them

he would not be one of our saints
if
he did

 

[Totton Linnet]

ahhh, I never saw you deny scripture before.

 

[chrysostom]

ahhh, I never saw you deny scripture before.

can you please show me where I did that?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Augustine saw them

According as He hath elected us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Christ Jesus to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.

Eph.1.4-5

here

 

[chrysostom]

ahhh, I never saw you deny scripture before.

can you please show me where I did that?

here

I am denying your interpretation of scripture
and
you have seen that before
and
you will see it again

 

[IMJerusha]

there are many passages that suggest reincarnation
I am only aware of a few
and
they are:


Matthew 24:14King James Version (KJV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



Revelation 20:5King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



Matthew 24:34King James Version (KJV)

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Chrys, you're going to strain your back stretching that hard. lain:

 

[IMJerusha]

No, not for you...you had freewill before the founding of the world...yer a clever gal.

Silly. No one had free will before the founding of the world except God and I am certainly not God. :nono:

 

[Totton Linnet]

Silly. No one had free will before the founding of the world except God and I am certainly not God. :nono:

If you were chosen in Him before the world was founded how come then it was your freewill?

I agree it is silly.

 

[patrick jane]

Augustine saw them

According as He hath elected us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Christ Jesus to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.

Eph.1.4-5

here

Yes, God elected us that we SHOULD be, and Adopted us into Christ. God knew He would save mankind as Jesus Christ, God knew those who would accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour. i believe Jesus Is God Incarnate

 

[chrysostom]

Yes, God elected us that we SHOULD be, and Adopted us into Christ.

so who is us?
was it unconditional?
is elected the same a chosen?

 

[chrysostom]

you were chosen in Him

what does that mean?

 

[TIPlatypus]

no

you have to explain why we can't be sure of our ultimate fate
if
we choose to follow Jesus

I shall retract what I said. It sounds stupid in that light.

I shall say instead that our choice is influenced by many things. And not all those things are working for us.

 

[chrysostom]

I shall retract what I said. It sounds stupid in that light.

I shall say instead that our choice is influenced by many things. And not all those things are working for us.

you are not being clear

a choice influenced by many things is no longer a choice

 

[Town Heretic]

you are not being clear

a choice influenced by many things is no longer a choice

Just in for a second, but of course it is. That's why people have advisers, whether or not their advice decides the issue or not. A choice decided by someone else isn't a choice, but we are the sum total of a great many influences. And yet we can, objectively, consider and counter them. We can even make a choice contrary to the most fundamental impulse/influence of all.

 

[chrysostom]

Just in for a second, but of course it is. That's why people have advisers, whether or not their advice decides the issue or not. A choice decided by someone else isn't a choice, but we are the sum total of a great many influences. And yet we can, objectively, consider and counter them. We can even make a choice contrary to the most fundamental impulse/influence of all.

thank you for that
did you go back to see what we are talking about?

ultimate fate

 

[Town Heretic]

thank you for that

But of course.

did you go back to see what we are talking about?

Did you? lain:

ultimate fate

You think the scale changes the answer?

Interesting.