ECT Obey the Gospel

Jacob

Jacob

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meshak said:
All Jesus word is the gospel, not just a few verses or facts.
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Correct. But the gospel can be summarized such that a person believes certain things and is therefore said to believe the gospel. If they reject or have trouble or any problem with anything that Jesus has said they either need to work that out, they don't understand, it is not required to understand, or it proves that they are not a believer or do not believe as they ought to.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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Jacob said:
I know this wasn't written directly to me, but it says somewhere to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 says for by grace you have been saved through faith and this not of yourself it is the gift of God not as a result of works lest any man should boast. It says somewhere that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. I believe the word of God or the word of Christ. I have faith in God and in Jesus. The fact that I do cannot be explained by myself I just do and I believe that it is a result of God's word, that God's word has made it to me and that I have received the word implanted which is able to save my soul. It is not by works for then I would be able to boast that I am better than someone else or that my believing even or having faith is self-generated and results in my salvation on the basis of my own effort. But that would be false. Another place, Titus 3:5, says He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness but according to His mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewing or renewal of the Holy Spirit. So it is not based on what I have done or on anything that I have done but on God's mercy. That is how the Holy Spirit has been able to do a work in my life of transformation. I can't save anyone by law keeping. I can't make myself perfect. Then the question is why do I obey or observe the law. My answer or the answer is that I want to. But I feel or think that this is not based on my own understanding, but that God wants me to obey Him even as He has saved me from sin. And sin is transgression of the law. So, being saved, I am not under the law but under grace. And at the same time I want to obey God's commands because they are good for me to obey or observe. Because the law involves God's commandments God does not forbid me to observe the law, His law.

Question: I have been sanctified. What is sanctification? After a person becomes a believer, saved by the blood of Jesus, ought He to obey or observe God's commands, His commandments? Because obedience to His Word requires obeying something. We are to obey the gospel, which at minimum is belief or right belief based on God's Written Revealed Word. But I also know that a person can leave their life of sin after becoming a believer. It is not necessarily something that happens automatically. To stay in the same state or let that which is not of God die in you, makes sense. But living a godly life seems to result in not living a life of sin as a believer which we might think is possible. The one who is born of God does not sin. Jesus didn't sin. But I don't want to sin either, whether it is that I could possibly sin (I believe it is possible) but I don't want to. So then do I live without sin based on choice or based on God's will? Either way it is what I want, not impossible, and yet impossible. I don't strive of my own to keep or maintain salvation having been saved, but I live in such a way that my life reflects the fact that I have and even that I know it that I have. So then have I received circumcision in observing Passover and wearing tzitzit and observing the Sabbath such that Christ's death is to me nothing? That is the price of choosing to obey or observe the Law after understanding that works do not and never will and never have saved anyone. So do good works because God wants you to not because they merit you any reward unto salvation apart from Christ or of yourself.
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Romans 14:1-8 KJV
(1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
(2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
(3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
(4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
(5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
(6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
(7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
(8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

The Sabbaths were never evil or harmful in themselves. Heeding Paul above, if you regard the day, then regard it unto the Lord.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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musterion said:
If a lost person knows nothing else about Christ than He died for the lost person sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead the third day, can that person be forgiven all sins knowing nothing about Him but that?
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Did the thief on the cross know that Christ would be raised three days later?
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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musterion said:
If a lost person knows nothing else about Christ than He died for the lost person sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead the third day, can that person be forgiven all sins knowing nothing about Him but that?
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Forgiveness of sins is not based upon knowing.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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musterion said:
So unpack this for me please.

According to you, one is forgiven and saved by...

1. Stopping sinning,

2. _____

What's next, briefly stated?
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I would not put stopping sinning first. I would put believing the gospel and leave it at that.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Rosenritter said:
Romans 14:1-8 KJV
(1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
(2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
(3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
(4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
(5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
(6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
(7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
(8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

The Sabbaths were never evil or harmful in themselves. Heeding Paul above, if you regard the day, then regard it unto the Lord.
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amen
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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musterion said:
Can such a person's forgiveness and justification ever be lost, sending them to Hell?
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Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Yes.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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musterion said:
Why bother, then, when observing it is a curse?
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it was the attempting that gave you trouble.

don't try, do.

if the law is a curse then have nothing to do with it. by the way, where are you getting that from? From attempting to observe the Law? It will never work.
 
musterion

musterion

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Rosenritter said:
Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Yes.
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So...

1. Stop sinning.

2. Don't sin anymore.

Or a saved person will go to Hell?
 
musterion

musterion

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Jacob said:
it was the attempting that gave you trouble.

don't try, do.

if the law is a curse then have nothing to do with it. by the way, where are you getting that from? From attempting to observe the Law? It will never work.
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Gal 3:10, 13

That's you.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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musterion said:
So...

1. Stop sinning.

2. Don't sin anymore.

Or you'll go to Hell?
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Is that how you understand the passage from Hebrews 10 above? After all that speech about the meaning of faith and of genuine repentance being a change of the heart, and your response is akin to "... but who is my neighbor?"

Matthew 25:24-30 KJV
(24) Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
(25) And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
(26) His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
(27) Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
(28) Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
(29) For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
(30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A mere "stop sinning and don't sin anymore" is not the response of faith.
 
meshak

meshak

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Jacob said:
Correct. But the gospel can be summarized such that a person believes certain things and is therefore said to believe the gospel. If they reject or have trouble or any problem with anything that Jesus has said they either need to work that out, they don't understand, it is not required to understand, or it proves that they are not a believer or do not believe as they ought to.
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If you summarize, you will mislead them. That's what is happening to trinitarian churches and their doctrines.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Rosenritter said:
Would you show your context? Because perhaps your meaning of "knowing" is different than my meaning of "knowing" for there is knowledge of the mind but there is also knowledge of the heart.
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Salvation is by faith in an objective set of historical facts about Christ. That's what Paul said. You either believe that or you don't, but that's what he said.

Faith means belief, but you can't believe something if you don't know what it is. That means faith is impossible if one doesn't know what he's supposed to have faith in.

Your mysticism and vain philosophy has blinded you to the simple truth of what Christ has done for you.
 
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