Nuclear Iran Obama's Legacy

The Barbarian

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I notice that Gates has mentioned that we've never had a policy for dealing with Iran and nuclear weapons. He's apparently been given a green light from Obama to get one together.

That, I suppose, will be Obama's legacy with regard to Iran. I can't help thinking that it would have been better if we didn't have to wait for Obama to get it done...
 

mighty_duck

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The nature of Iran's government is vastly more complex than that.
Granted, I'm oversimplifying. But ultimate power lies in the hands of the Ayatollah Hamenei, who is an Islamic radical theocrat, and Ahmedinejad, who is a certified nutjob.
My faith that they will make their decisions in a responsible way is limited.

in reality Iran is less theocratic than many of nations in the region that US considers allies. (Not that that's saying a whole lot mind you, but if one were forced to make the choice, it would be far better to be a Christian or Jew in Iran than one in a country like Saudi Arabia.)
This is assuming that Islam by nature hates its non-Muslim subjects. That isn't true. There is a long history of Islam respecting non-Muslim citizens, as long as they know their place as inferior subjects.
Iran is about as radicalized as they come.

And I wouldn't want nukes in the hands of Saudia Arabia either, for similar reasons.

Again, it's vastly more complicated than that. The actually philosophy of governing party in Iran is an admixture of Islamic and Socialist thought. I also find it odd the degree to which people are willing to believe that the Iranians are all of sudden going to provoke a region wide war, when in reality the nation has never actually started a single war of aggression.
Since the fall of Iraq and the power of Russia, along with Egypt "sekling out" to the west, there has been an internal power struggle for leadership in the Muslim world. Iran has the become the front runner, spouting out populistic anti-west rhetoric. Destroying Israel would cement their place in Muslim public opinion.


Which means that it's far too big a geographical area for the fantastical "all wiped out with one smuggled nuke" scenario you proposed. As horrific as nuclear weapons are their blast radius, especially when detonated on the ground, simply isn't as big as you seem to be imagining. The only two nations which posses those really huge, wipe out an entire city size nukes are the US and Russia, and they are physically huge. Not the sort of thing that can just be smuggled into a city. And it order to do that, they have to be detonated aerially, not on the ground.
Hezbollah allegedly already has scud missles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. The distance from that and an "unaffiliated" group launching a "rogue" attack is too close for comfort.
 

WandererInFog

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Granted, I'm oversimplifying. But ultimate power lies in the hands of the Ayatollah Hamenei, who is an Islamic radical theocrat, and Ahmedinejad, who is a certified nutjob.
My faith that they will make their decisions in a responsible way is limited.

Despicable as Ahmadinejad is in many ways, he's far from a "nutjob". He's extremely intelligent with degrees in civil engineering and transportation engineering, and he rose to power by being an extremely skilled and canny politician. Doesn't mean he's a good person by any stretch of the imagination, but he's a far cry from the wacky religious dictator he often gets portrayed as in Western media.

But even an out and out theocrat like Ali Khamenei isn't in the same league as the kind you see with groups like the Taliban and other Wahhabist oriented sects.

And I wouldn't want nukes in the hands of Saudia Arabia either, for similar reasons.

So, what if I told you that the US had committed to actively assisting Saudi Arabia in developing nuclear technology? And that Saudi Arabia already possesses a number of CSS-2 (aka Dong Feng 3) missiles which are capable of carrying a nuclear payload?

And if you want to know which of those two countries having nuclear technology worries me more, well let's just say that last I checked there haven't been any Iranians flying commercial airliners into skyscrapers...

Since the fall of Iraq and the power of Russia, along with Egypt "sekling out" to the west, there has been an internal power struggle for leadership in the Muslim world. Iran has the become the front runner, spouting out populistic anti-west rhetoric. Destroying Israel would cement their place in Muslim public opinion.

The Muslim nations are not simply one big happy family. They're deeply divided by religious sect and ethnicity. Other than by conquest, Iran has no real chance of establishing dominance over the other nations in the region as they are neither Arab nor of the same sect of Islam.

Though it doesn't get talked about a great deal in the West, there are very real tensions that have always existed, and are presently growing between these different Muslim groups in the Middle East. (Saudi religious police have fairly recently even taken to beating and detaining Shi'a Muslims making the pilgrimage to the Mecca.)

Iran has very real reasons, especially in regards to their national security, to make sure they don't fall behind the Arab nations in the region in regards nuclear technology that have nothing whatsoever to do with either Israel or any Western nation.

Hezbollah allegedly already has scud missles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. The distance from that and an "unaffiliated" group launching a "rogue" attack is too close for comfort.

Even assuming that's true, the only types of SCUDs capable of carrying a nuclear warhead (the R-11M & R-17 aka SCUD-A and SCUD-B) have extremely limited range and are wildly inaccurate, are only capable of carrying a maximum 50kt warhead, and were all manufactured in the 1950s and 1960s, later designs were longer range, but so much smaller they were no longer suited to carrying nuclear warheads. The more advanced of the two would be the equivalent of those SCUDs Saddam tossed around during the Gulf War, only Hezbollah would have even less ability to properly aim them. (It's also possible that they'd just have the North Korean knock-offs that were even less reliable and would be just as likely to blow up on the launch pad as to actually get off the ground.)
 

chair

Well-known member
So, what if I told you that the US had committed to actively assisting Saudi Arabia in developing nuclear technology? And that Saudi Arabia already possesses a number of CSS-2 (aka Dong Feng 3) missiles which are capable of carrying a nuclear payload?

And if you want to know which of those two countries having nuclear technology worries me more, well let's just say that last I checked there haven't been any Iranians flying commercial airliners into skyscrapers...

Presumably, when the U.S. says "civilian nuclear energy for use in medicine, industry, and power generation" that is exactly what it means. I don't think
you can same the same for what is going on in Iran.

And I don't think you can compare the acts of individual Saudis to the national policies of Iran.
 

WandererInFog

New member
Presumably, when the U.S. says "civilian nuclear energy for use in medicine, industry, and power generation" that is exactly what it means. I don't think
you can same the same for what is going on in Iran.

Any civilian nuclear program can be redirected in relatively short order into a military one, especially by a nation with the financial resources of the Saudis.

And I don't think you can compare the acts of individual Saudis to the national policies of Iran.

National policies such as what exactly? Talking about how much they hate Israel? Don't seem to recall the Saudis expressing their deep in abiding love for the nation either.
 

WandererInFog

New member
How much do you know about nuclear physics?

Enough to understand that the Uranium-235 used in most nuclear reactors is a kind which can be enriched and weaponized. Weapons created from it would be nowhere near as powerful or efficient as more modern nuclear weapons based on Plutonium-239, but even enriching it to as little as 20% would be sufficient to create a crude, low-yield nuclear bomb (though enrichment to 80%+ is generally considered preferable for weapons).

Though, I suppose I should clarify that when I say "in relatively short order", I mean within a decade or so. For example, Pakistan, having far less money and in period with lower technology, was able to move from an initial decision to begin enriching Uranium in 1974 to a first successful test in 1984.
 

mighty_duck

New member
Despicable as Ahmadinejad is in many ways, he's far from a "nutjob". He's extremely intelligent with degrees in civil engineering and transportation engineering, and he rose to power by being an extremely skilled and canny politician. Doesn't mean he's a good person by any stretch of the imagination, but he's a far cry from the wacky religious dictator he often gets portrayed as in Western media.

But even an out and out theocrat like Ali Khamenei isn't in the same league as the kind you see with groups like the Taliban and other Wahhabist oriented sects.
The fact that there are even crazier nutjobs out there doesn't put my mind to rest.

So, what if I told you that the US had committed to actively assisting Saudi Arabia in developing nuclear technology? And that Saudi Arabia already possesses a number of CSS-2 (aka Dong Feng 3) missiles which are capable of carrying a nuclear payload?

And if you want to know which of those two countries having nuclear technology worries me more, well let's just say that last I checked there haven't been any Iranians flying commercial airliners into skyscrapers...
And if US-Saudi relations sour, and nuclear inspectors are kicked out while keeping the hardware in tact, I'd also expect those facilities would be targeted in short order.
The Muslim nations are not simply one big happy family. They're deeply divided by religious sect and ethnicity. Other than by conquest, Iran has no real chance of establishing dominance over the other nations in the region as they are neither Arab nor of the same sect of Islam.

Though it doesn't get talked about a great deal in the West, there are very real tensions that have always existed, and are presently growing between these different Muslim groups in the Middle East. (Saudi religious police have fairly recently even taken to beating and detaining Shi'a Muslims making the pilgrimage to the Mecca.)
That is true. However, hate is a strong unifying factor among Muslims. Hate for Israel and the US is among the few things most will agree on. Anyone battling the "little devil" or the "big devil" will be a hero of the people, and wield more power and influence in the Muslim world.

Iran has very real reasons, especially in regards to their national security, to make sure they don't fall behind the Arab nations in the region in regards nuclear technology that have nothing whatsoever to do with either Israel or any Western nation.
No Arab nation has nuclear capabilities, so they wouldn't be falling behind. They are paving a new trail.
And the fact that they have other interests in acquiring these weapons doesn't put my mind to rest either.

Even assuming that's true, the only types of SCUDs capable of carrying a nuclear warhead (the R-11M & R-17 aka SCUD-A and SCUD-B) have extremely limited range and are wildly inaccurate, are only capable of carrying a maximum 50kt warhead, and were all manufactured in the 1950s and 1960s, later designs were longer range, but so much smaller they were no longer suited to carrying nuclear warheads. The more advanced of the two would be the equivalent of those SCUDs Saddam tossed around during the Gulf War, only Hezbollah would have even less ability to properly aim them. (It's also possible that they'd just have the North Korean knock-offs that were even less reliable and would be just as likely to blow up on the launch pad as to actually get off the ground.)

That's the beauty of nuclear weapons, precision isn't very important. And range is less of a problem when you are launching from Lebanon - only about 100 miles away from Tel Aviv.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
The fact that there are even crazier nutjobs out there doesn't put my mind to rest.


And if US-Saudi relations sour, and nuclear inspectors are kicked out while keeping the hardware in tact, I'd also expect those facilities would be targeted in short order.

That is true. However, hate is a strong unifying factor among Muslims. Hate for Israel and the US is among the few things most will agree on. Anyone battling the "little devil" or the "big devil" will be a hero of the people, and wield more power and influence in the Muslim world.


No Arab nation has nuclear capabilities, so they wouldn't be falling behind. They are paving a new trail.
And the fact that they have other interests in acquiring these weapons doesn't put my mind to rest either.



That's the beauty of nuclear weapons, precision isn't very important. And range is less of a problem when you are launching from Lebanon - only about 100 miles away from Tel Aviv.

You're right. Precision isn't that important at all in terms of the destructiveness of these weapons. I happened across a documentary I saw years ago as a kid during the arms race. Scary scary time. The premise being just the one 100 megaton bomb exploded above St Paul's cathedral....

 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Muslims are generally fine with non-Zionist Jews.

Yes, die and give your land to refugees (by choice).

Maybe you should learn who non-Zionist Jews are. They are generally quite orthodox, very conservative, and almost none of them live in Israel.

They think Jews should wait until God returns them to Zion, as they believe He promised to do. As I said, it's more about politics and land than it is about religion.
 

One Eyed Jack

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I don't believe God will ever allow a nuke to detonate over Jerusalem. That being said, I don't think we should just sit back and do nothing. You can still kill plenty of people with conventional explosives.
 

serpentdove

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"Researcher: Iran can produce nuke within 2 months: Airstrikes can no longer stop nuclear program, US can do nothing short of military occupation, says report..." Story
 
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skinker

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"Will Israel Strike by August?...

...Russia has just announced that it intends to allow the Iranian nuclear reactor facility located in Bushehr (near the Persian Gulf) to go live in August. This is an ominous development. Now Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu has a fateful decision to make. Will he order a preemptive military strike against all of Iran’s nuclear sites before August when the Bushehr site becomes “hot”? His mentor, Menachem Begin, ordered an Israeli air strike against Saddam Hussein’s Osirik nuclear reactor in Iraq before it went hot in 1981. Netanyahu wants the world to act with decisive unity to stop Iran from getting the Bomb. But that is increasingly unlikely. The Obama administration is no longer calling for “crippling sanctions,” and even if they were, it appears to be too late for sanctions to be effective. U.S. officials — including Defense Secretary Robert Gates — says Iran could have the Bomb by next year. German intelligence thinks it could be sooner. We need to pray for peace, but prepare for war..." Story.

How quickly will they use their nuke if they get it? .024 seconds or .073 seconds?

One month before JFK was assassinated he told Israelis that the U.S. was going to demand open inspection of Israel's nuclear program, i.e. just exactly what is demanded of Iran. JFK is assassinated by Oswald and then in turn is assassinated by Jack Rubinstein with direct connections to Meyer Lansky and the Jewish Mob who were always welcomed in Israel.

Israel's WMD program was never inspected and now Israel, thanks to majority rightwing phony "Christians", has its WMD and wants no other Middle East nation to have what they possess already. Why? Because all Middle Easterners hate Israel because Israeli Jews are racist invaders of Palestine wanting to do their racist "for Jews only" genocide of Palestinian society using American taxpayer money to do this.

And this crime against humanity that Israel continues every day happens because of phony rightwing "Christians" promoting religious warfare in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
 
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