ECT NO, THE BIBLE IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN'S ONLY AUTHORITY

oatmeal

Well-known member
Of course she can, just as she always has (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; Rom. 16:17; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).


Merely another Straw Man Fallacy on your part, since this is not at all what the Catholic Church claims to do. Try again.


Yes, there is a type of tradition that is condemned by Jesus and the apostles (i.e., merely human traditions, "the traditions of men"). However, there is ALSO a form of Tradition which is encouraged, and even commanded, in the NT (Sacred Tradition, or Apostolic Tradition). It is the latter which you deny and, in doing so, deny the Scriptures themselves.


The Church herself teaches just that fact. The doctrines of the Church carry the very authority of Jesus Christ himself (Lk. 10:16; 1 Tim. 3:15). One either accepts and follows the Church's (and therefore Christ's) authoritative teachings and self-testimony, or one does not.


In fact, what you're "weighing all traditions against" is not the Bible itself, but merely your preferred interpretations of the Bible, which carry no authority whatsoever. In any case, this has already been answered above.


Already answered.



Oops! Try again.


Already answered above.


You're simply wrong on this, or else you have no idea what a "logical fallacy" is. Either way, Post #45 stands exactly as given, and your claim to the contrary has already been answered---and refuted---in a previous post.


Again, the very most that you can validly claim is that the Catechism contradicts your preferred interpretations of Scripture which, again, carry no binding authority whatsoever. Try again.


Of course you can't, since your chosen recently-invented man-made non-Catholic sect will not allow you to think or believe contrary to its own tenets and dictates. Like everyone else, your beliefs are guided by your tradition.


Wrong again. Sacred Tradition is every bit as much "the word of God" (Divine Revelation) as is Sacred Scripture.

Also, your complaint against Christ's Church made above applies to your appeal to the Bible as well. To paraphrase you: "Certainly the Bible has assumed authority but it cannot document it beyond simply stating it has it." In other words, your claim that "the Bible is authoritative" is nothing more than an assertion made by the Bible itself, and you have yet to prove its validity. However, if, as Protestants like to claim, the Bible's self-testimony should be taken at face value, then the Catholic's appeal to the authority of Christ's Church---which both preceded and produced the Bible---is at least as compelling, if not more so.


Already answered in previous posts.



You're so predictably wrong. Paul confronted Peter not over Peter's teachings, but over his behavior---that is, the fact that Peter was acting in a manner which was inconsistent with his (Peter's) own infallible teachings. Try again.


Yet another Straw Man Fallacy for you. The Church has never taught that the Pope is "always right." So much for your claimed "knowledge" of Catholic teaching.


Sounds remarkably like the myriad Protestant sects with their hopelessly unworkable principle of the Private Interpretation of Scripture.


Of course I have, the content of which you have been utterly unable to disprove or refute in any rational manner. For example, readers should take note that CM will offer no rationally compelling or logically valid counter-argument to a single point made in this very post itself.


You're such a natural and effortless liar. May God help you (Ex. 20:16; Prov. 19:5).


Again, the fact that you don't prefer (like) the answers because they contradict the dictates of your chosen recently-invented man-made non-Catholic sect certainly does not mean that you have not received the answers. The problem is with you, not with the substance of the truth.


And you still have no idea what an Ad Hominem actually is. :doh: No, there's nothing whatsoever ad hominem about Post #94, since it is in no way directed to your motives or character, but only to your actions on this forum. It is based upon an observation of your own posted statements here on TOL. Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Of course she can, just as she always has (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; Rom. 16:17; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).

anyone or any organization can claim that those verses are talking about themselves, including me.
 

Cruciform

New member
I was just getting ready to answer this but realized that there is no reason to. I have asked you to list the specific traditions that Paul was referring to when spoke those words. The purpose for asking is to see if the traditions that Paul taught are the same as or at least consistant with Paul's traditions. All of your stuff above is just an attempt by you to hide the fact that you can't answer my question.
Your question has already been answered, along with all the rest of your logical fallacies, misrepresentations, false assumptions, and just plain ignorance.

Of course I know what it is.
Not according to your routine misapplication of the term on this forum, for example the one that you desperately try to rationalize just below...

You do it all the time. I asked you a question about Paul. You respond with allegations about my motives and allegations about hating Catholics. It's the very definition of ad hominem.
Now go ahead and cite the post number, and quote my exact words, in which I supposedly say anything whatsoever about your "motives" or "hating Catholics." (Wait for it...)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruiform
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Cruciform

New member
Of course she can, just as she always has (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; Rom. 16:17; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).

anyone or any organization can claim that those verses are talking about themselves, including me.
But not every organization can actually demonstrate---from Divine Revelation and the testimony of history---that it is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D. The Catholic Church, however, has done exactly that. Your chosen recently-invented man-made non-Catholic sect, by contrast, has not.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Lon

Well-known member
!

!

"THE BIBLE, NOT ORAL TRADITION, IS OUR ONLY AUTHORITY!"

False. Christ sent the Apostles to teach all things that He had taught them, but the Bible tells us that not all that He did was written in Scripture (Jn. 21:25). Therefore, if all is to be taught, and not all is in Scripture, part of Christian truth must be elsewhere. But where?

<cough...ahem...God...The Holy Spirit...cough....>
St. Paul tells us clearly to "stand fast and hold to the traditions which we have learned, either by word or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:14).

Ouch, "either" means you get a choice? I don't think that word means what you think it means. I think Paul was concerned here with truth, whether one had read them in scriptures or heard them first-hand before they were written. Traditions, conversely, survive and we can see what works and what doesn't. It is more like a law of averages, horse-sense, and sensibility but if you lack those or the equipment God gave some of us to figure it out...You might need a:
Thus, the Catholic Church, "the pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15), teaches that Divine Revelation is contained fully in the Word of God, which is comprised of Sacred Scripture and sacred Tradition.



http://www.StreetEvangelization.com
Quite a jump. That 'either' between scripture or what you think is different in tradition, left a loophole I believe an elephant could walk through. I'd love to see a verse that said 'sacred' and 'traditions' in the same breath :) "Standing fast" to good horse sense and scriptural instructions seems both pertinent and practical for godliness.

Whatever Paul was talking about, it didn't involve indulgences round the 14-16 centuries, nor did it involve animals going to heaven in the 21st century. IOW, I think Scriptural and Apostolic traditions trump church Father one's. There is a discrepancy or either I wouldn't be Protestant, or better yet, you wouldn't be Catholic.

My largest concern is this: If your tradition has you buying an indulgence, it is time to realize that it and others like it are not, in fact, sacred at all. That's huge and for me, the most pertinent point that clearly and starkly helps separate the Catholic from the Protestant, and necessarily. It is exactly this that Martin Luther nailed on the Wittenberg Door and for exactly this debate thread that it must be the point of continued contention.
 

CabinetMaker

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Your question has already been answered, along with all the rest of your logical fallacies, misrepresentations, false assumptions, and just plain ignorance.
I'm sorry, I must have missed it. Please post the post number where you clearly laid the exact traditions Paul was referring to.


Not according to your routine misapplication of the term on this forum, for example the one that you desperately try to rationalize just below...
Maybe you should go look at the definition again.


Now go ahead and cite the post number, and quote my exact words, in which I supposedly say anything whatsoever about your "motives" or "hating Catholics." (Wait for it...)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruiform
+T+
Post 94 I believe. Full ad hominem response by you. If you disagree, by means, explain why it us not.

CM's SYLLOGISM:
  • Claim to fully and accurately comprehend Catholic beliefs and teachings
  • Proceed to then badly distort and misrepresent Catholic beliefs and teachings repeatedly in your posted statements
  • Have knowledgeable and informed Catholics detail and demonstrate the transparent ignorance and errors in your posted statements
  • Assert that your distortions and misrepresentations are supposedly what Catholics "really" believe and teach
  • Stick to your fabricated scenario at all costs, no matter how categorically refuted or hopelessly erroneous it might be
  • Repeat ad infinitum


Gaudium de veritate,


Cruciform
+T+

Let's see, I was born and raised Catholic so I do, in fact, know Catholic teaching. I don't agree with it which us a separate issue.
I haven't distorted what your church teaches, I gave challenged it in no uncertain terms.
Interesting how the informed Catholics have never actually answered any of my challenges directly except for Spitfire. I respect her emensly for doing so.
There are certain things that you see as misrepresentation that are not. Idolatry for one. Saying that bowing and praying before a stray use is not idolatry is illogical. I have no problems publicly stating as much.
I am still waiting to be categorically corrected on post 518 so I guess your assertion here is dimply wrong.
So this does fall under ad hominem as I asked a question about Paul that you completely ignore and instead make it all about me.
 

Cruciform

New member
<cough...ahem...God...The Holy Spirit...cough....>
Yes, the Holy Spirit leads Christ's Church---the Magisterium, comprised of the apostles and bishops (Ac. 16:4; 1 Tim. 3:15)---"into all truth" (Jn. 16:13), and it is Christ's Church which delivers divine truth to the faithful (Mt. 28:18-20; Ac. 16:4; Rom. 16:17; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6), who are bound to affirm and follow it as Jesus' own teaching (Lk. 10:16; 1 Tim. 3:15).

Ouch, "either" means you get a choice? I don't think that word means what you think it means. I think...
In fact, you think precisely what your chosen recently-invented man-made non-Catholic sect permits you to think, and has taught you to think, and little else. ("This message is approved by Lon's preferred man-made sectarian tradition." ;) )

Paul was concerned here with truth, whether one had read them in scriptures or heard them first-hand before they were written.
Of course, Paul makes no such statement in the text itself. Rather, you are simply reading your chosen sect's assumptions and opinions into the text, and have thereby refuted sola scriptura by appealing to something outside of "Scripture alone."

Quite a jump.
Not really, since it comports fully with the understanding of this text held and taught by the early Christian Church immediately following the Apostolic Era and throughout the first fifteen centuries of ecclesiastical history.

Whatever Paul was talking about, it didn't involve indulgences round the 14-16 centuries...
Not in an immediate sense, but it certainly did by extension, just as the Christian doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation (among various others) developed and were shaped over time in the Church.

...nor did it involve animals going to heaven in the 21st century.
Here you merely presume to comment on something of which you're virtually entirely ignorant. If you care to, you can begin to remedy your ignorance here.

My largest concern is this: If your tradition has you buying an indulgence...
Your ignorance is showing again. "Buying" indulgences has never been a formal teaching of the Catholic Church. So no, I don't engage in medieval abuses (no time machine, sorry), and neither do any other Catholics that I'm aware of. (Try knowing what you're talking about before you speak.)

That's huge and for me...
Given that it was based upon an erroneous perception of Catholic doctrine (see just above), not nearly so "huge" as you thought. Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Cruciform

New member
I'm sorry, I must have missed it. Please post the post number where you clearly laid the exact traditions Paul was referring to.
Already answered (Post #136).

Maybe you should go look at the definition again.
Given that I'm the one with the degree in philosophy, maybe you should look at the definition again. :think:

Post 94 I believe. Full ad hominem response by you. If you disagree, by means, explain why it us not.
I already did, in that it points to your own posted statements, and does not mention your character or motives. As I've already challenged you:
"Now go ahead and cite the post number, and quote my exact words, in which I supposedly say anything whatsoever about your 'motives' or 'hating Catholics.'"
Still waiting for you to provide this example. :yawn:

Let's see, I was born and raised Catholic so I do, in fact, know Catholic teaching.
See point #2 of the CM Syllogism (Post #95).

I don't agree with it which us a separate issue.
...and which is entirely irrelevant, since your preferred interpretations of the Bible carry no inherent doctrinal authority whatsoever, given that the chosen man-made non-Catholic sect from which you have derived them possesses no binding doctrinal authority either.

I haven't distorted what your Church teaches...
Your own posted statements to the contrary make you a liar (Ex. 20:16; Prov. 19:5).

I gave challenged it in no uncertain terms.
The deliberate distortion and misrepresentation of Catholic belief and teachings hardly constitutes a "challenge." Get Catholic doctrine right, then you might actually attempt to challenge it, at least as far as your schismatic position might allow.

Interesting how the informed Catholics have never actually answered any of my challenges...
Just another CM lie (Prov. 19:5).

I am still waiting to be categorically corrected on post 518 so I guess your assertion here is dimply wrong.
Already answered.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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Already answered (Post #136).


Given that I'm the one with the degree in philosophy, maybe you should look at the definition again. :think:


I already did, in that it points to your own posted statements, and does not mention your character or motives. As I've already challenged you:
"Now go ahead and cite the post number, and quote my exact words, in which I supposedly say anything whatsoever about your 'motives' or 'hating Catholics.'"
Still waiting for you to provide this example. :yawn:


See point #2 of the CM Syllogism (Post #95).


...and which is entirely irrelevant, since your preferred interpretations of the Bible carry no inherent doctrinal authority whatsoever, given that the chosen man-made non-Catholic sect from which you have derived them possesses no binding doctrinal authority either.


Your own posted statements to the contrary make you a liar (Ex. 20:16; Prov. 19:5).


The deliberate distortion and misrepresentation of Catholic belief and teachings hardly constitutes a "challenge." Get Catholic doctrine right, then you might actually attempt to challenge it, at least as far as your schismatic position might allow.


Just another CM lie (Prov. 19:5).



Already answered.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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[/QUOTE]
If I were you, I'd ask for my money back for that philosophy degree. See, we are discussing the traditions that Paul was referring to. You reply with this saying I am lying, saying I have an agenda.

Here is the definition:

ad ho·mi·nem
ˌad ˈhämənəm/
adverb & adjective
adverb: ad hominem; adjective: ad hominem
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.


So how is you calling me a liar dealing with the question of Paul's traditions?

Here is post 136:
I stated just that in Posts #45, #59, and #62. Together, they decisively answer your request. Awaiting your retraction and apology.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Which does not contain any list of the traditions Paul was referring to and, in fact, led you to launch a ad hominem attack against me.
 

Cruciform

New member
If I were you, I'd ask for my money back for that philosophy degree.

ad ho·mi·nem (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"We argue ad hominem when we try to refute an argument by arguing against the character of the man who brings it forward or his motives in doing so." ~ Joseph Gerard Brennan (prof. of Philosophy, Columbia University), A Handbook of Logic, 2nd ed. (p. 217)


So much for your charge of the ad hominem fallacy. :nono:

Which does not contain any list of the traditions Paul was referring to...
Already answered.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
"We argue ad hominem when we try to refute an argument by arguing against the character of the man who brings it forward or his motives in doing so." ~ Joseph Gerard Brennan (prof. of Philosophy, Columbia University), A Handbook of Logic, 2nd ed. (p. 217)


So much for your charge of the ad hominem fallacy. :nono:


Already answered.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
Well, we have learned two things. First, you have a poor education in philosophy and second, you have no idea what traditions Paul was actually referring to.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Well, we have learned two things. First, you have a poor education in philosophy and second, you have no idea what traditions Paul was actually referring to.

I agree. I checked back on cruciform's posts in this thread and nowhere did he answer your question in the way that it was phrased, namely to list out the exact traditions Paul was referring to.
The notion of tradition in Roman Catholicism is obviously an end in itself: all they ever do is cite traditions that they know existed and which in their view do not contradict any of the previous traditions. So long as they can't point to an exact origin of the particular tradition, they merely assume this tradition has existed since the apostles. It's quite preposterous. Only people with vested interests like Cruciform defend this. Any rational historian offers the evidence of when a particular tradition began. He then says 'well maybe it existed before this but absent any other evidence we must assume not'. It is complete foolishness to assume that it existed for ages previously, that's not how historians work. They'd be laughed out of court if they did. You can only rely on the evidence you have, not the evidence you don't have. This is why cruciform has been avoiding answering your question. He knows the evidence doesn't exist.
 

CabinetMaker

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I agree. I checked back on cruciform's posts in this thread and nowhere did he answer your question in the way that it was phrased, namely to list out the exact traditions Paul was referring to.
The notion of tradition in Roman Catholicism is obviously an end in itself: all they ever do is cite traditions that they know existed and which in their view do not contradict any of the previous traditions. So long as they can't point to an exact origin of the particular tradition, they merely assume this tradition has existed since the apostles. It's quite preposterous. Only people with vested interests like Cruciform defend this. Any rational historian offers the evidence of when a particular tradition began. He then says 'well maybe it existed before this but absent any other evidence we must assume not'. It is complete foolishness to assume that it existed for ages previously, that's not how historians work. They'd be laughed out of court if they did. You can only rely on the evidence you have, not the evidence you don't have. This is why cruciform has been avoiding answering your question. He knows the evidence doesn't exist.
You are exactly right. I push him quite frequently on this point because I think it is important. He says that the Catechism contains all the traditions that Paul taught. If we do not know exactly what traditions Paul taught, how can we tell if the Catechism is correct? What do we compare it to? If you do not know what Paul was referring to, how can you say that the traditions regarding Mary are correct? Given that Mary was likely alive when Paul wrote that letter, how could Paul possibly have taught the Catholic tradition that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven? If we don't have an objective source to check traditions against then great error can enter our teachings. For the record, I do not consider the RCC an objective source for matters regarding Catholic traditions. Go figure.
 

Cruciform

New member
Well, we have learned two things. First, you have a poor education in philosophy...
Then so does Joseph Gerard Brennan, professor of Philosophy at Columbia University (Post #169), right? You're willfully and hopelessly ignorant.

...and second, you have no idea what traditions Paul was actually referring to.
Sure I do. He was referring to all of them. (See Posts #136 and #139.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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Then so does Joseph Gerard Brennan, professor of Philosophy at Columbia University (Post #169), right? You're willfully and hopelessly ignorant.
If he taught you and if your participation here is representative of what he taught you, then yes, he also has a poor education in philosophy. Don't feel bad. Tradition is also a Catholic with a major in philosophy and his skills in reasoning and debate are identical to yours.


Sure I do. He was referring to all of them. (See Posts #136 and #139.)



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Not logically possible. There is no possible way that Paul could be referring to traditions that would not exist until a thousand years after his death.
 

Cruciform

New member
If he taught you and if your participation here is representative of what he taught you, then yes, he also has a poor education in philosophy.
I quoted from a standard textbook on logic written by a prominent professor of Philosophy at a major university. Your sole basis for ignorantly dismissing his definition is your own personal subjective bias and self-interest, rather than any genuine knowledge of the subject. Again, you are willfully and hopelessly ignorant---just as you are about the Catholic faith itself.

Not logically possible. There is no possible way that Paul could be referring to traditions that would not exist until a thousand years after his death.
Already answered---and corrected---in a previous post.



Gaudium de veritate,

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CabinetMaker

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I quoted from a standard textbook on logic written by a prominent professor of Philosophy at a major university. Your sole basis for ignorantly dismissing his definition is your own personal subjective bias and self-interest, rather than any genuine knowledge of the subject. Again, you are willfully and hopelessly ignorant---just as you are about the Catholic faith itself.
I gave you a definition and used it. You seem to take umbrage with the definition I used it makes you look bad. You choose a different definition that you think makes you look better. In practice, what you did fits either definition as the discussion was about what Paul taught and you ultimately replied by calling me a liar. Ad hominem by any definition you choose.


Already answered---and corrected---in a previous post.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
For one who claims to be educated in logic, it escapes me how you can say with a straight face that Paul taught traditions that would not exist for a thousand years (literally) after his death as tradition.
 

Cruciform

New member
I gave you a definition and used it. You seem to take umbrage with the definition I used it makes you look bad.
Again, my definition came from a reliable source, a prominent professor of Philosophy who is an accepted expert in the subject under discussion. Your charge of an ad hominem on my part simply falls flat. Case closed.

For one who claims to be educated in logic, it escapes me how you can say with a straight face that Paul taught traditions that would not exist for a thousand years (literally) after his death as tradition.
Once again, you simply cannot seem to state the situation correctly. I certainly did not say that Paul himself taught Traditions that would not exist for a thousand years (this is merely another Straw Man on your part), but that Paul's reference to "traditions" in 2 Thess. 2:15 includes by extension all of the Traditional teachings of the Church for all time. Big difference there. Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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Again, my definition came from a reliable source, a prominent professor of Philosophy who is an accepted expert in the subject under discussion. Your charge of an ad hominem on my part simply falls flat. Case closed.
I note that you ignore most of my original response and then declare victory and run away. Okay.


Once again, you simply cannot seem to state the situation correctly. I certainly did not say that Paul himself taught Traditions that would not exist for a thousand years (this is merely another Straw Man on your part), but that Paul's reference to "traditions" in 2 Thess. 2:15 includes by extension all of the Traditional teachings of the Church for all time. Big difference there. Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
But it is not logically possible for Paul to teach that ALL traditions for ALL time. Paul was not omniscient so he would never have blessed a blanket approval for anything that would come after him. We know this because Paul had to correct Peter. You are free to quibble over exactly what the correction was but the fact remains, Peter made an error and had to be corrected by Paul. Who corrects your magisterium's error now? Nobody. So error is free to enter Catholic teachings. And it has.
 
People can argue this matter until blue in the face, but the obvious fact is the New Testament faith of the Bible, as laid down by our Lord Jesus and His apostles, is completely sufficient for salvation and sanctification, is the whole gospel of the Christian faith. Nothing more is needed, period. Some of you would like to think you've added anything to the Lord's work of scripture, but you're deluded.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 

Bright Raven

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The Bible is the Christian's authority. Anything that goes against that premise is false.
 
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