No Means No!

[bybee]

"NO" implies a certain intonation of voice. You're prejudicing the question. If by "NO" you mean that the woman is shouting, or otherwise, firmly and seriously insisting "NO," and is overall expressing, in her body language, intonation of voice, words, etc., that she does not want to engage in sexual contact, then yes, "'no' means 'no.'" If she has just pushed your hand away, has a frown on her face, and has just said "NO" in her best Darth Vader impression, then you most certainly should stop what you are doing and respect her wishes.

That's not always the case.

Sometimes, that's not how she is saying "no." Sometimes, she says "no" in an intonation of voice, with body language, with behavior, and, in general, in a general communicative context that actually means: "Yes!"

That then is another issue.

 

[Traditio]

That then is another issue.

That's literally the only issue I was trying to address in this thread. Does the simple fact that the woman said "no" mean that you should stop? Does the simple fact that the word "no" came out of a woman's mouth mean that she does not consent to the sexual act in question? Sometimes, the answer to this question is "no." Sometimes, "no" occurs in a communicative context that means, or, at least, might reasonably be taken to mean, "yes."

 

[Eeset]

That's literally the only issue I was trying to address in this thread. Does the simple fact that the woman said "no" mean that you should stop? Does the simple fact that the word "no" came out of a woman's mouth mean that she does not consent to the sexual act in question? Sometimes, the answer to this question is "no." Sometimes, "no" occurs in a communicative context that means, or, at least, might reasonably be taken to mean, "yes."

Listen up clodhopper. No means no. No never means yes. When you hear no then stop. If the woman wants to restart then she will. But in the meantime you have no right to rationalize.

 

[bybee]

Listen up clodhopper. No means no. No never means yes. When you hear no then stop. If the woman wants to restart then she will. But in the meantime you have no right to rationalize.

Well said!

 

[bybee]

That's literally the only issue I was trying to address in this thread. Does the simple fact that the woman said "no" mean that you should stop? Does the simple fact that the word "no" came out of a woman's mouth mean that she does not consent to the sexual act in question? Sometimes, the answer to this question is "no." Sometimes, "no" occurs in a communicative context that means, or, at least, might reasonably be taken to mean, "yes."

Since you are not a woman your words are just so much vapid gas! If anyone says "NO" it means "NO"!
Let your Aye be Aye and let your Nay be Nay!
That is the best way to get on in community.

 

[Traditio]

Listen up clodhopper. No means no. No never means yes. When you hear no then stop. If the woman wants to restart then she will. But in the meantime you have no right to rationalize.

I'm sorry, Eeset, but this is just wrong. What if the woman, in spite of saying "no," says it in a certain tone of voice, continues actively to participate in the sexual liasson, and when asked by the male participant whether she would like him to stop, says "no"?

Again, to be clear:

Woman: No...
Man: Oh. Uh...ok. Do you want me to stop?
Woman: No...

In this case, that first "no" clearly does not really mean "no."

 

[Quetzal]

Listen up clodhopper. No means no. No never means yes. When you hear no then stop. If the woman wants to restart then she will. But in the meantime you have no right to rationalize.

:up:

 

[Traditio]

Since you are not a woman your words are just so much vapid gas! If anyone says "NO" it means "NO"!
Let your Aye be Aye and let your Nay be Nay!
That is the best way to get on in community.

That very well may be your opinion, but that's not how people actually behave. "No" simply doesn't always mean "no." Whether in the matter of sexual intercourse or anything else. Context is everything.

Again, a "no" said in a sarcastic tone of voice usually means "yes."

 

[patrick jane]

That very well may be your opinion, but that's not how people actually behave. "No" simply doesn't always mean "no." Whether in the matter of sexual intercourse or anything else. Context is everything.

Again, a "no" said in a sarcastic tone of voice usually means "yes."

:nono:

 

[bybee]

That very well may be your opinion, but that's not how people actually behave. "No" simply doesn't always mean "no." Whether in the matter of sexual intercourse or anything else. Context is everything.

Again, a "no" said in a sarcastic tone of voice usually means "yes."

So, you are now espousing situation ethics? A thing only has situational meaning?

 

[Eeset]

I'm sorry, Eeset, but this is just wrong. What if the woman, in spite of saying "no," says it in a certain tone of voice, continues actively to participate in the sexual liasson, and when asked by the male participant whether she would like him to stop, says "no"?

Again, to be clear:

Woman: No...
Man: Oh. Uh...ok. Do you want me to stop?
Woman: No...

In this case, that first "no" clearly does not really mean "no."

This is too funny. What were you doing, peeling potatoes? Perhaps you asked if you were peeling them correctly and she said no.

Now listen up buttercup. If I recall correctly you freaked out at women wearing skimpy clothing. You admitted lack of any sexual experiences yet now you are offering guidance on this topic?

This is not a "word play" subject. Come back when you have some actual experience with sex.

 

[Traditio]

So, you are now espousing situation ethics? A thing only has situational meaning?

No, no, no. I'm espousing situation linguistic expression. Uses of language only have situational meaning.

Again, and let me be clear, I think it's perfectly true to say that if a woman expresses her unwillingness to commit a sexual act, one should respect a woman's wishes. I simply don't think that "no" always indicates such an unwillingness.

The chief case that comes to mind is the woman who simply enjoys putting up a show of resistance even though she is very much "into it," so to speak, and wants to engage in the sexual act in question. Her use of the word "no" does not mean "no," and this may be ascertained from various other situational context clues...especially by asking her if her "no" indicates an actual desire to put a halt to the proceedings.

 

[Traditio]

This is too funny. What were you doing, peeling potatoes? Perhaps you asked if you were peeling them correctly and she said no.

Now listen up buttercup. If I recall correctly you freaked out at women wearing skimpy clothing. You admitted lack of any sexual experiences yet now you are offering guidance on this topic?

This is not a "word play" subject. Come back when you have some actual experience with sex.

I am going to ask you plainly. How should a man interpret the following:

Woman: No...[in a tone of voice which does not indicate emphasis]
Man: Would you like me to stop?
Woman: No...[in the exact same tone of voice]

What is the woman trying to communicate?

 

[Eeset]

I am going to ask you plainly. How should a man interpret the following:

Woman: No...[in a tone of voice which does not indicate emphasis]
Man: Would you like me to stop?
Woman: No...[in the exact same tone of voice]

What is the woman trying to communicate?

What were you doing? Were you engaged in foreplay or were you making sandwiches in the kitchen?

 

[Traditio]

Eeset:

For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that the man and woman are engaging, or else, are preparing to engage in a sexual liasson.

How should such a man understand the "no" of the woman in question?

 

[bybee]

For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that the man and woman are engaging, or else, are preparing to engage in a sexual liasson.

How should such a man understand the "no" of the woman in question?

Check his deodorant?

 

[bybee]

No, no, no. I'm espousing situation linguistic expression. Uses of language only have situational meaning.

Again, and let me be clear, I think it's perfectly true to say that if a woman expresses her unwillingness to commit a sexual act, one should respect a woman's wishes. I simply don't think that "no" always indicates such an unwillingness.

The chief case that comes to mind is the woman who simply enjoys putting up a show of resistance even though she is very much "into it," so to speak, and wants to engage in the sexual act in question. Her use of the word "no" does not mean "no," and this may be ascertained from various other situational context clues...especially by asking her if her "no" indicates an actual desire to put a halt to the proceedings.

A simple solution, ASK! Do you really mean no? I may not be reading you correctly?

 

[Traditio]

A simple solution, ASK! Do you really mean no? I may not be reading you correctly?

I fully agree with you, Bybee. But that's precisely my point:

"No" doesn't always mean "no." It might mean "yes" in a given situational context, and the man should take all reasonable measures to ascertain the actual wishes of the woman...for example, by asking: "You said 'no'...does this mean that you want me to put a halt to what I am doing?"

 

[Quetzal]

I fully agree with you, Bybee. But that's precisely my point:

"No" doesn't always mean "no." It might mean "yes" in a given situational context, and the man should take all reasonable measures to ascertain the actual wishes of the woman...for example, by asking: "You said 'no'...does this mean that you want me to put a halt to what I am doing?"

You are grasping at straws. If the genuine intent is no, then it is always no. Period.

 

[Eeset]

Eeset:

For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that the man and woman are engaging, or else, are preparing to engage in a sexual liasson.

How should such a man understand the "no" of the woman in question?

Oh, I see. They are "preparing" to engage. In other words you are proposing a hypothetical situation which has no basis in reality. Got it. Come back when you have some actual experience with the subject.