New experience for a muslim

Mulla Sadra

Member
For me, because God, relates with His Creation in many and varied ways, especially through His Son. My God is a living God and the gods of pantheism are dead.

There has never been any gods of the pantheistic flavor that has ever communicated or done anything for Creation; or do you know of any?
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God is outside of Creation. My Bible says that God created Creation out of nothing.

No, God is NOT inside His creation. Creation could not contain My God, in all His glory (1 Kings 8:27; 2 Chronicles 2:6).

"The heaven of heavens cannot contain Him, and yet He condescends to find a house within our hearts!" —Spurgeon

1- Dead, alive, what ? This is poetic not rational reason. (it can be used against you as much as you can use it for your benefit).

2- Okay, God is outside of Creation, hold to that sentence because I am going to quote it again.

3- Spurgeon wasn't doing something new saying this. the same exact sentence was told to Muhammad, Angel Gabriel said :
Allah told me ( Heavens and Earth can't "fit" me, but the heart of a (real) believe does ). Bihar-Al-Anwar
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
What do yo mean by God is outside of Creation, outside as there's God there, and creation in another place ?
and WHY do you believe so, what is the reason - you think - made the scripture say this. (the rational reason)
 

lifeisgood

New member
What do yo mean by God is outside of Creation, outside as there's God there, and creation in another place ? and WHY do you believe so, what is the reason - you think - made the scripture say this. (the rational reason)

My reasoning is that BEFORE anything existed, there had to have been a Creator outside of the Creation to be able to create it. That is why I see creation today, a Creator created it.

Genesis 1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God was in no way a part of the creation. He was absolutely external to the created universe. The Hebrew word translated "created" is "bara" (baw-raw') which means made from nothing. The Bible says the things which are seen were not made of things which do appear (Hebrews 11:3). That means that everything in the universe is made from nothing. The Bible says through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God (Hebrews 11:3).

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
My reasoning is that BEFORE anything existed, there had to have been a Creator outside of the Creation to be able to create it. That is why I see creation today, a Creator created it.

Genesis 1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God was in no way a part of the creation. He was absolutely external to the created universe. The Hebrew word translated "created" is "bara" (baw-raw') which means made from nothing. The Bible says the things which are seen were not made of things which do appear (Hebrews 11:3). That means that everything in the universe is made from nothing. The Bible says through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God (Hebrews 11:3).

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

Okay, I will quote "external" later.

You say this was before Creation.
I ask you, what about now ?

Note that : You still didn't answer me why God should be out of Creation, I want the reason, not a piece from Bible. What is the bad consequence of God being part of Creation ?
 

lifeisgood

New member
I wasn't asking for your (Biologist) opinion of Evolution, I was asking why your belief doesn't permit you to accept evolution.

I did answer you. For me to believe in evolution, I would have to see many fossils showing "mid" transition specimens, e.g., I would have to see a half-ape / half-man, a whale with half finished legs (one would suffice because many would eventually appear to have finished its evolution), etc., etc.

I don't know from where did you conclude "No evolutionary process in God's creation", if God says that, I am surely out of such a cult, because he doesn't know anything in the universe.

Have you ever seen a half-ape / half-man before man became man. I refuse to believe that my great, great, great, great, etc. grandfather was a half-ape / half-man. I do not think that God created Adam as an ape or a half-ape / half-man before Adam became man.

"What is [the matter] with you that you do not attribute to Allah [due] grandeur while He has created you in stages ?" [71:14].

So, when you were born of your parents you were not a full man? You were half-something and half-something else? I don't think so. You came out a complete male specimen.

Anyways, I don't care about this as much as I care for the Pantheism thing, so you are not obliged to answer.

I do not know what else you want to know. God is alive and in relationship with His Creation and He is outside of His Creation and pantheism is a man-made thing. Man creates idols and say that they are gods. My Bible has examples of such things.

For example:

1 Kings 18 talks about God's Prophet Elijah gathering the false prophets on Mt. Carmel to have a contest to prove that God is the True Living God.

1 Kings 18:23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
1 Kings 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
1 Kings 18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
1 Kings 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
1 Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
1 Kings 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
1 Kings 18:29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
1 Kings 18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that was broken down.
1 Kings 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
1 Kings 18:32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
1 Kings 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
1 Kings 18:34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
1 Kings 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
1 Kings 18:36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
1 Kings 18:37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
1 Kings 18:38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
1 Kings 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Okay, I will quote "external" later.

You say this was before Creation.
I ask you, what about now ?

Note that : You still didn't answer me why God should be out of Creation, I want the reason, not a piece from Bible. What is the bad consequence of God being part of Creation ?

Were your parents inside of you while you were being formed in your mom's womb?

I do not think so. Therefore, your parents (God -- just as a figure of speech) were your creator. They created you and were outside of their creation (you).
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
I do not know what else you want to know. God is alive and in relationship with His Creation and He is outside of His Creation and pantheism is a man-made thing. Man creates idols and say that they are gods.

As much as Logic can go after, Religion is a man-made thing, So a Pantheism theory won't be that much different.

Makes me wonder, what got stones like idol with relation with the idea (God=Existence).

Sir, I am asking you :

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS NOT PART OF CREATION ?

Not what does your Bible say, your bible is yours, I am now an outsider, come tell me logically why you YHWH can't be part of existence ? (that's in the hypothesis that I believe in Pantheism, which I don't in the meaning you think is).
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
Were your parents inside of you while you were being formed in your mom's womb?

I do not think so. Therefore, your parents (God -- just as a figure of speech) were your creator. They created you and were outside of their creation (you).

So, God had a "place1" to be in, while he was creating creation that would be in "place2" ?

Just like my parents had an XYZ they filled before I was born into an XYZ I fill alone ?
 

lifeisgood

New member
As much as Logic can go after, Religion is a man-made thing, So a Pantheism theory won't be that much different.

Makes me wonder, what got stones like idol with relation with the idea (God=Existence).

Sir, I am asking you :

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS NOT PART OF CREATION ?

Not what does your Bible say, your bible is yours, I am now an outsider, come tell me logically why you YHWH can't be part of existence ? (that's in the hypothesis that I believe in Pantheism, which I don't in the meaning you think is).

I have answered you, because all I have to do is look at what I see through my eyes and KNOW that there's got to be a Creator.

I mean, even a single cell is more complicated than scientists ever thought it possible. They were flabbergasted as to what they saw under those very powerful microscopes inside a single cell.

I do not need the Bible to tell me that there is a Creator outside of the creation.
 

Mulla Sadra

Member
I have answered you, because all I have to do is look at what I see through my eyes and KNOW that there's got to be a Creator.

I mean, even a single cell is more complicated than scientists ever thought it possible. They were flabbergasted as to what they saw under those very powerful microscopes inside a single cell.

I do not need the Bible to tell me that there is a Creator outside of the creation.

Okay, I can see you have concluded that there's a creator from science, but I can't see the other part of the syllogism that made you know that this God you believed in because of what you see, what you see is not part of it.

How did you KNOW that he is outside of Creation ? on what logical basis ? Why can't Creation+What is not Creation be him ?
 

lifeisgood

New member
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world (Psalm 19:1-4).

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

As the Creator, God certainly would want mankind, His greatest creation,
- to know that He is the Creator, and
- to be able to gain valid information about Him.

All I have to do is look at His creation and I can see the Creator.
 

lifeisgood

New member
I repeat, The creator can never be part of a created ? am I right in understanding you ?

PS : Thanks for correcting me.

The Creator can never be part of the creation, because the Creator existed before the Creation was created; therefore, the Creator is outside the Creation.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Okay, I can see you have concluded that there's a creator from science, but I can't see the other part of the syllogism that made you know that this God you believed in because of what you see, what you see is not part of it.

Everything was created by Him. However, He is separate of what He has created.

How did you KNOW that he is outside of Creation ? on what logical basis ? Why can't Creation+What is not Creation be him ?

When you go outside and look, do you see that it (what you see) exists because of itself?

Did your house simply appeared one day all of a sudden? I don't think so. Somebody (creator) had to create the house (creation).

Do you need somebody to tell you that somebody (creator) created the house (creation) you live in? or write a book about it? I don't think so. However, if a book was written about it, does the book give you information you do not have? Absolutely yes. Why? Because you were not present when the house was created (you were not born yet). So, if your parents were not around the book could give you much information about what happened before you were born and the house was built.
 
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