My reply to beanieboy

[beanieboy]

Beanieboy, the movie was not about the brutality of man, but about the reality of the sufferings of Christ. To be honest with you, when I read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, it was easy for me to disreguard the horror that Christ suffered. I just didn't grasp the truth of it. They were words on a page. Significant, but not identifiable. The movie made me ashamed that I had taken such a great sacrifice for granted and so I endeavored to study it more fully. Mostly to see for myself if such brutality against my saviour had taken place. In my studies, I realized that it had and I was guilty of taking His suffering for granted.
We can debate this until we are both blue in the face. I see the movie as a well needed wake up call to stagnant Christians. Perhaps non-christians could be persuaded to find faith, but I would not advise anyone to see it based on pure sensationalism. I don't believe that it was the purpose or intenttion of Mr. Gibson to make it so.

If Jesus was just stabbed to death, that wouldn't have been enough for you?
I am told that Jesus died for my sins, but from Christians, it's as if that isn't enough - it had to hurt, or it doesn't show how much he loved you, and the more he suffered, the more he cared.

But the bible says, "There is no greater love than he who gives up his life for another."
There is nothing about how much the person must suffer.

 

[Agape4Robin]

If Jesus was just stabbed to death, that wouldn't have been enough for you?
I am told that Jesus died for my sins, but from Christians, it's as if that isn't enough - it had to hurt, or it doesn't show how much he loved you, and the more he suffered, the more he cared.

But the bible says, "There is no greater love than he who gives up his life for another."
There is nothing about how much the person must suffer.

What are you saying? That I have some sort of blood lust? Death isn't peaceful or glamorous. In most cases, death hurts. What Christ did for me was more than enough.

He bore the suffering of the whole world........you can't do that without incredible pain. In His suffering, it was more than just brutal, he was mocked and scorned. It wasn't enough that He was bloody and beaten, he was mocked and ridiculed by the Roman soldiers and the corrupt religious leaders.

 

[SOTK]

And giving his life wasn't enough?

A.W. Tozer once said, "What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us."

This statement should cause you to pause, beanieboy.

 

[Agape4Robin]

A.W. Tozer once said, "What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us."

This statement should cause you to pause, beanieboy.

You would think....................

 

[beanieboy]

Is the most important thing how much it hurt, or that Christ died for you sins in your place?

There is NO scriptural backing that said for Christ to die and take account of the entire world, it would have to hurt. He could have been beheaded, or stabbed (both of which hurt but are not torturous) and it would have still ended with the resurrection of Christ.

God asked for people to sacrifice their lambs, etc.
He didn't have them to shear their best lamb, club it, spit on it, kick it, whip it, and then hang it up untiil it dies a slow painful death.

Nor do I think that it was necessary for Christ
That was simply what happened, because of the depravity of people who no longer value the human lives of others.

Did Jesus suffer more than what the Spanish Inquisistion did of quartering people, pulling their limbs from their body? Or boiling people in oil?

If Jesus REALLY love us, and the torture was enough, he would have been kidnapped,beaten, buried alive for a while, allowed to escape and hunted down, etc., like a twisted horror flick.

Even the Jews of the Holocaust - even the children - who were experimented on with surgery and no anithetic, but in freezing temperatures to see how long they could live, had their flesh charred to see if they would still live, etc.

But if you stop, and can only think of the violence put upon christ, then you are missing the point of whole resurrection.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Is the most important thing how much it hurt, or that Christ died for you sins in your place?

There is NO scriptural backing that said for Christ to die and take account of the entire world, it would have to hurt. He could have been beheaded, or stabbed (both of which hurt but are not torturous) and it would have still ended with the resurrection of Christ.

God asked for people to sacrifice their lambs, etc.
He didn't have them to shear their best lamb, club it, spit on it, kick it, whip it, and then hang it up untiil it dies a slow painful death.

Nor do I think that it was necessary for Christ
That was simply what happened, because of the depravity of people who no longer value the human lives of others.

Did Jesus suffer more than what the Spanish Inquisistion did of quartering people, pulling their limbs from their body? Or boiling people in oil?

If Jesus REALLY love us, and the torture was enough, he would have been kidnapped,beaten, buried alive for a while, allowed to escape and hunted down, etc., like a twisted horror flick.

Even the Jews of the Holocaust - even the children - who were experimented on with surgery and no anithetic, but in freezing temperatures to see how long they could live, had their flesh charred to see if they would still live, etc.

But if you stop, and can only think of the violence put upon christ, then you are missing the point of whole resurrection.

What are you saying? That I have some sort of blood lust? Death isn't peaceful or glamorous. In most cases, death hurts. What Christ did for me was more than enough.

He bore the suffering of the whole world........you can't do that without incredible pain. In His suffering, it was more than just brutal, he was mocked and scorned. It wasn't enough that He was bloody and beaten, he was mocked and ridiculed by the Roman soldiers and the corrupt religious leaders.

And it's obvious that you have not done a study of the Passover feast and how the Lamb is presented. It is a perfect picture of Christ on the cross. If you would like to discuss that further, I can start a new thread about it, otherwise you don't know what you are talking about, buddhist.

 

[beanieboy]

If Jesus bore the suffering of the whole world, why do people still suffer, often being kidnapped and tortured to death.

Did it just not take?
Did God insist that Jesus get beaten and spit on, or his death wouldn't count?
And if so, I would suggest that he wait until the Dark Ages, where people were tortured, often for days, and then quartered.
Now THAT"S pain.

No where in the bible does it say that Jesus pain was necessary. It says that his death was necessary.

As for the Passover lamb, it throat is cut. The death is fast.
And that's all it took for the Angel of Death to passover - you didn't have to beat the heck out of it first.

 

[SOTK]

If Jesus bore the suffering of the whole world, why do people still suffer, often being kidnapped and tortured to death.

Jesus bore the sins of the world and not the suffering, however, sin can have physical consequences as much as spiritual ones. The physical and emotional suffering that Christ went through showed He was willing to take it all and all He did!

Beanieboy, you are now arguing for arguments sake. This subject is basic. My 9 year old and 11 year old understand it.

Suffering still exists in this whole world because this world is still in a fallen state, however, instead of just having the option of death, we now have the option of life. I am referring to spiritual and eternal life. Christ warned us that evil would continue after His death. He stated that there would be wars, rumors of wars, famines, and that we would be persecuted for our belief in Him. This world will continue to worsen to the point where there is hardly any morality left. The suffering won't stop until He returns.

 

[beanieboy]

He bore the suffering of the whole world........you can't do that without incredible pain. In His suffering,\

SOTK - you are negating what Robin just said, and tell me that I am arguing for argument's sake?
It sounds like you are disagreeing directly with her, but arguing with me.

That makes not sense. Maybe your children can explain that to you, because it is obvious to me.

Oh,wait.I have to put in a christian style pot shot - "my cat would even understand that."

 

[Delmar]

No where in the bible does it say that Jesus pain was necessary. It says that his death was necessary.

As for the Passover lamb, it throat is cut. The death is fast.
And that's all it took for the Angel of Death to passover - you didn't have to beat the heck out of it first.

Are you sure?
Isaiah 53
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

 

[Frank Ernest]

The purpose wasn't to show how heinous such things as scourging and crucifiction were so much as to show how much Jesus was willing to take because of His great love for us.

Showing real love and the sacrifice made for it would be the dealbreaker for the unbelievers. They prefer wearing ribbons to show how much they "care."

 

[Frank Ernest]

Robin, in general, the most that you have to offer is something that you cut and pasted off a web site that someone else said, and like Granite said, some holier-than-thou snide comments. I don't really enjoy having debates with you, not because we disagree, but because you are snide.

:darwinsm: Has "snide" become the sine qua non of mortal sins now?

So I don't really wish to continue this thread.

Got whupped again.

Have a happy new year.

Yahoo! You too!

 

[Granite]

Are you sure?
Isaiah 53
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

Actually this Isaiah passage is lifted constantly by Christians who mistake it as messianic. (It's also interesting that a resurrection of any kind is not mentioned at all; the man spoken of stays quite dead.)

 

[SOTK]

SOTK - you are negating what Robin just said, and tell me that I am arguing for argument's sake?
It sounds like you are disagreeing directly with her, but arguing with me.

That makes not sense. Maybe your children can explain that to you, because it is obvious to me.

Oh,wait.I have to put in a christian style pot shot - "my cat would even understand that."

I disagreed with what you wrote and think you have it wrong otherwise I wouldn't have replied to your quote.

You have a cat?! :shocked:

 

[Flipper]

He bore the suffering of the whole world........you can't do that without incredible pain.

I've heard this said before, but it's always in the form of an assertion. Apparently, it makes some Christians uncomfortable in the realization that there are others in this world who suffered worse physical pain for much longer. I would have thought that the pain of crucifixion would have been enough but no, your guy has to have had it the worse even though he's supposed to have been divine and so was constantly assured of not only eternal life, but of the top spot.

A tough one to spin, that.

 

[novice]

Apparently, it makes some Christians uncomfortable in the realization that there are others in this world who suffered worse physical pain for much longer.

Um... dude?

Who else (other than Christ) took on the sin of the entire world?

 

[Flipper]

Novice: My issue is with this argument that taking "on the sin of the entire world" is somehow more physically painful than crucifixion. That's a Christian embellishment I fancy, although if there's chapter and verse to the contrary, I expect you'll find it.

Are you sure you're not mistakenly conflating `suffering and dying for our sins' with `suffering more pain than anyone in history because of some physical translation of total sin into physical and mental anguish'?

My understanding is that most people who were crucified tended to live quite a lot longer than Jesus did, so you might argue that they suffered the same pain for longer.

 

[Granite]

Actually that's quite true. Technically Jesus didn't suffer that badly for a crucifixion victim. Crucified folk were known to live for days before finally expiring.

 

[Flipper]

I'm guessing that Novice is hitting the bible right now and is seconds away from finding a quote that definitively refutes me.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Novice: My issue is with this argument that taking "on the sin of the entire world" is somehow more physically painful than crucifixion. That's a Christian embellishment I fancy, although if there's chapter and verse to the contrary, I expect you'll find it.

Are you sure you're not mistakenly conflating `suffering and dying for our sins' with `suffering more pain than anyone in history because of some physical translation of total sin into physical and mental anguish'?

My understanding is that most people who were crucified tended to live quite a lot longer than Jesus did, so you might argue that they suffered the same pain for longer.

Well then you keep telling yourself that, umkay? But frankly, you don't have clue 1 about it!:nono: