ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[God's Truth]

Well, hug him, er, his word, more.

Argh, you are so, um, funny? ugh

 

[turbosixx]

So it was that Paul received (2) baptisms and (1) infilling. . . . jusr like what happened at the house of Cornielus, Acts 10. cf Acts 19 and the account of the disciples of John.

2 baptisms creates a dilemma. Paul said there's one.

Eph. 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

[turbosixx]

When you keep preaching no one can be saved before a water baptism

I only know what the bible tells me.

After all Paul had done, did he still have his sins before water baptism?
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

In Romans Paul says this about baptism.
6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
When he says "all of us who" that leaves out everyone that hasn't been baptized.

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and the Acts 22:16 is RECAPITULATION of what happened in Acts 9:6 !!

Paul called Jesus KURIOS / LORD and the second Paul called Jesus Lord , Paul called Jesus Lord BY THE HOLY SPIRIT !

1 Cor 12:3 is very clear that NO ONE calls Jesus Lord EXCEPT by the Holy Spirit !!

In Acts 9:17 , Ananias says , ' Has sent me so that you might recover sight , and might be FULL OF HOLY SPIRIT !!

In verse 18 , " INSTANTLY , and having stood up he was BAPTIZO / GIVEN , Holy Spirit !!

In Phil 3:7 under the Law , FAULTLESS !!

dan p

dan p

Baptizo doesn't mean given. You'll have to direct me to where you get that information before I believe that. It means to submerge.

It's the same Greek word used when Peter commands that Cornelius be water baptized after they had received the Holy Spirit. So it can't be Holy Spirit baptism. Peter even calls it water.

Why would the Holy Spirit be waiting on Paul because Ananias say "why do YOU delay".
After all Paul had done receiving his sight and being filled with the Holy Spirit, what does the inspired word tell us. Wash away your sins. He still had his sins.
22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[DAN P]

Baptizo doesn't mean given. You'll have to direct me to where you get that information before I believe that. It means to submerge.

It's the same Greek word used when Peter commands that Cornelius be water baptized after they had received the Holy Spirit. So it can't be Holy Spirit baptism. Peter even calls it water.

Why would the Holy Spirit be waiting on Paul because Ananias say "why do YOU delay".
After all Paul had done receiving his sight and being filled with the Holy Spirit, what does the inspired word tell us. Wash away your sins. He still had his sins.
22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Hi and where did VINE dictionary get the word SUBMERGE ?

Is Vine's words INSPIRED ?

Any one can use a word that BEST describes what the Greek means !!

Give a meaning to BAPTISMA translated BAPTISM in Eph 4:5 and in Rom 6:4 and in Acts 19;4 where Baptizo and BAPTISMA are both used !!

How about DIVERS WASHING where the Greek word is BAPTISMOS , what does that mean ??

How about 1 Cor 10:2 , where thsy were BAPTIZED , UNTO Moses , in the CLOUD and in the SEA , and what word for BAPTISM will you use HERE ??

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and where did VINE dictionary get the word SUBMERGE ?

From the English language and it's not even close to given.

Is Vine's words INSPIRED ?

No but neither are you.

Any one can use a word that BEST describes what the Greek means !!

Anyone can but I would not trust just anyone.

in Acts 19;4 where Baptizo and BAPTISMA are both used !!

One is a noun talking about John's and the other is a verb talking about doing it. To the best of my knowledge of the top of my head.
G907 and G908

How about DIVERS WASHING where the Greek word is BAPTISMOS , what does that mean ??

baptismos: (the act of) a dipping or washing
Original Word: βαπτισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: baptismos
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tis-mos')
Short Definition: dipping, washing
Definition: dipping, washing (of a ceremonial character).

These are referring to the old law, not in the name of Jesus.

How about 1 Cor 10:2 , where thsy were BAPTIZED , UNTO Moses , in the CLOUD and in the SEA , and what word for BAPTISM will you use HERE ??

dan p

They were submerged under water by the cloud and the sea.

 

[DAN P]

From the English language and it's not even close to given.

No but neither are you.


Anyone can but I would not trust just anyone.


One is a noun talking about John's and the other is a verb talking about doing it. To the best of my knowledge of the top of my head.
G907 and G908


baptismos: (the act of) a dipping or washing
Original Word: βαπτισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: baptismos
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tis-mos')
Short Definition: dipping, washing
Definition: dipping, washing (of a ceremonial character).

These are referring to the old law, not in the name of Jesus.


They were submerged under water by the cloud and the sea.

Hi and in Ex 14:22 and Israel went upon DRY ground and the ONLY one to get SUBMERGED IN WATER were the Egyptians , who pursed Israel , so much for SUBMERGED !!

Your words how was Israel SUBMERGED ??

When you get ready , tell me what Acts 19:4 means , when it uses BAPTIZED 2 times , and are they the same word ?

dan p

 

[God's Truth]

I only know what the bible tells me.

After all Paul had done, did he still have his sins before water baptism?
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

In Romans Paul says this about baptism.
6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
When he says "all of us who" that leaves out everyone that hasn't been baptized.

Those scriptures do not say Cornelius and his whole household are liars.

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and in Ex 14:22 and Israel went upon DRY ground and the ONLY one to get SUBMERGED IN WATER were the Egyptians , who pursed Israel , so much for SUBMERGED !!

Your words how was Israel SUBMERGED ??

When you get ready , tell me what Acts 19:4 means , when it uses BAPTIZED 2 times , and are they the same word ?

dan p

Yes, they were on dry ground but Paul says twice they were under the cloud and in the sea. That is totally covered with water.
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Why would Paul make this point?


In Acts 19, John baptized(verb G907) with baptism(noun G908).

 

[Cross Reference]

2 baptisms creates a dilemma. Paul said there's one.

Eph. 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

No dilemna. I asked you to review Acts 10 and 11 and Acts 19:1-5 for understanding. You apparently didn't do that.

So a gain: Paul experienced (2) baptisms. Compare Acts 19:1-5 KJV to understand the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and how is was administered by the laying of hands by Paul and to understand that that is how Paul received it from Ananius befroe Ananius baptized him with water. Compare this also with the account with Peter, who didn't lay his hands on them, at the house of Cornielus to see (2) baptisms which he had a hard time explaining to those back in Jerusalem because Cornielus and co., were all Gentiles..

 

[turbosixx]

Those scriptures do not say Cornelius and he whole household are liars.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this statement.

I will assume you don't agree with the ones I posted because it contradicts what you see in the situation with Cornelius.?

If that's the case then you have to reconcile it somehow. How do you make both true?

 

[DAN P]

Yes, they were on dry ground but Paul says twice they were under the cloud and in the sea. That is totally covered with water.
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Why would Paul make this point?


In Acts 19, John baptized(verb G907) with baptism(noun G908).

Hi and how were they BAPTIZO into Moses ??

In Acts 19:4 and indedd John BAPTIZED / BAPTISMA wit a BAPTISM / BAPTIZO OF REPENTABCE !!

First this is water baptism by John , verse 3 !!

This BAPTISM was with WATER / HUDOR !!

This baptism was for Israel !!

The Greek word BAPTISMA means a BAPTIZER and there have only been 2 BAPTIZERS / BAPTISMA John and the HOLY SPIRIT !!

You are wrong on all of your Posts !!

And where you asked why GIVEN , you can also use the word PLACED !!

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

No dilemna. I asked you to review Acts 10 and 11 and Acts 19:1-5 for understanding. You apparently didn't do that.

So a gain: Paul experienced (2) baptisms. Compare Acts 19:1-5 KJV to understand the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and how is was administered by the laying of hands by Paul and to understand that that is how Paul received it from Ananius befroe Ananius baptized him with water. Compare this also with the account with Peter, who didn't lay his hands on them, at the house of Cornielus to see (2) baptisms which he had a hard time explaining to those back in Jerusalem because Cornielus and co., were all Gentiles..

No need to review I'm quite familiar with them. I have looked at this hard because I want to understand the truth.

I would politely suggest that in Acts 19 you are calling the laying of hands a baptism when the bible does not. It say "the Holy Spirit came on them". The bible calls Cornelius being baptism with the Holy Spirit baptism but not in Acts 19. No where in scripture is receiving the Holy Spirit by laying of hands called a baptism.

If we look at Acts 2:38 it says "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
One baptism but a giving of the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and how were they BAPTIZO into Moses ??

Paul said it, not me.

In Acts 19:4 and indedd John BAPTIZED / BAPTISMA wit a BAPTISM / BAPTIZO OF REPENTABCE !!

First this is water baptism by John , verse 3 !!


This BAPTISM was with WATER / HUDOR !!

I'm with you so far.

This baptism was for Israel !!

This where you lose me. It was for everyone. Was the jailer Israel? Cornelius?

The Greek word BAPTISMA means a BAPTIZER

No it doesn't. Please reference where you got this information.

And where you asked why GIVEN , you can also use the word PLACED !!

dan p

Again, Please reference where you got this information.

 

[DAN P]

Paul said it, not me.


I'm with you so far.


This where you lose me. It was for everyone. Was the jailer Israel? Cornelius?


No it doesn't. Please reference where you got this information.


Again, Please reference where you got this information.

Hi and where do think WHERE VINE'S got his ?

When a Greek can not be translated , it is what is called TRANSLITERATION !!

And MOST GREEK words have more than one MEANING !!

You NEED to do more STUDYING !!

The Greek word BAPTISM , and the are , BAPTO , BAPTIZO , BAPTIMA , BAPTISMLS and you can use 12 ways to translate them !!

The Greek word CHARIS / GRACE also has 12 different ways to translate it !!

Get a Greek book or use google !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Yes, they were on dry ground but Paul says twice they were under the cloud and in the sea. That is totally covered with water.
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Why would Paul make this point?


In Acts 19, John baptized(verb G907) with baptism(noun G908).

:chuckle: You have just proven once more that you go by what YOU conclude a thing MEANS by what it is SAYING.

Any passage will mean what it SAYS.

While, what it MEANS by what it says, is not always clear.

And being that Paul referenced an event from Israel's past, the better part of wisdom would suggest one ought to at least go back to that event itself, for more INFORMATION INDUCTION (taking in informatiom) BEFORE allowing oneself a WORKING PREMISE one might ONLY THEN BEGIN TO ATTEMPT TO sort a thing out as "what sort" it actually "is" from.

Ever increasing Induction or intake of ALL POSSIBLY RELEVANT Information

Ccontinuing careful Examination of Said Information COMPARING Things That DIFFER and those that are THE SAME.

Towards EVER a WORKING Premise...

One THEN proceeds toward a POSSIBLE CONCLUSION on...which is THEN the BASIS of one's ASSERTION.

Where you and I differ in eeach our end result understanding, Turno, will be where one of us has somehow mis-fire somewhere within in some of that, at some point within its process.

My study of 1 Cor. 10, based on those principles, is in the Spoiler below...

Spoiler

Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt: 13:18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt. 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you. 13:20 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness. 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Exodus 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. 14:9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon. 14:10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD. 14:11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? 14:12 Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness. 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night. 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians. 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 14:29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

What had that actually been about?

And why does Paul even bring up that CRYSTAL CLEAR OBVIOUSLY DRY "Baptism" to begin with?

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Paul brought that up because he was talking about what this following baptism, symbolizes...

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

It symbolizes the fact it has resulted in - this here...

12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

He was talking about the issue of Who they now were IN Christ.

How that just as Israel had been baptized or IDENTIFIED WITH MOSES as the People OF GOD, so had the Corinthians been IDENTIFIED WITH PAUL via the SPIRIT's have Identefied them as one WITH Christ.

In other words, he is applying an IDENTIFICATION Principle ALSO common to God's plan and purpose FOR, WITH and IN the nation Israel, as the Israel of God - he is applying that same IDENTIFICATION Principle to the Body of Christ.

12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Baptize or submerge a white cloth into a container of red dye and one happens?

The red dye becomes one WITH the cloth.

In turn the white cloth ALSO BECOMES identified WITH said red dye - it BECOMES a RED cloth.

1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The moment the person believes Christ died for his sins, the Spirit baptizes him into the Body of Christ - that is to say, the Spirit does that through the faith or "can do - consider it done" power that is the operation of God.

He performs a spiritual circumcision that results in severing one from their identity WITH and IN Adam and then places them INTO a living union WITH Christ.

In other words, 1 Cor. 10 is very similar in content and context to this here in Romans 6 - which is the issue of that spiritual baptism or identification WITH Christ that the Spirit has performed in the Believer the moment he has trusted in Christ ALONE.

This here...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The Believer becomes identified WITH Christ as having died WITH and risen WITH Him in HIS Newness of Life.

1 Cor. 10, then, is basically the issue of the need for them to be conducting themselves as those having been identified WITH Christ.

In this, the OT's Israel of God had been "our fathers" - for they too had not only entered into an identification of sorts with "that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" - but had also been expected to live up to the standards of said Identification.

Same principle in both the Israel of God within the nation Israel, and the Body of Christ; different manifestation of said Identity.

Nevertheless, Rom. 5:6-8 towards you, Turbo.

 

[turbosixx]

Hi and where do think WHERE VINE'S got his ?

From people smarter than me.

When a Greek can not be translated , it is what is called TRANSLITERATION !!

I totally understand that.

And MOST GREEK words have more than one MEANING !!

We're not talking about other Greek words.

You NEED to do more STUDYING !!

We all do, you included.


When Paul laid his hands on these men, the BIBLE doesn't tell us it's baptism, Greek or English.
And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

When Paul learns they hadn't received the Holy Spirit when they believed, why does he ask them about their baptism?

 

[turbosixx]

:chuckle: You have just proven once more that you go by what YOU conclude a thing MEANS by what it is SAYING.

Any passage will mean what it SAYS.

While, what it MEANS by what it says, is not always clear.

And being that Paul referenced an event from Israel's past, the better part of wisdom would suggest one ought to at least go back to that event itself, for more INFORMATION INDUCTION (taking in informatiom) BEFORE allowing oneself a WORKING PREMISE one might ONLY THEN BEGIN TO ATTEMPT TO sort a thing out as "what sort" it actually "is" from.

Ever increasing Induction or intake of ALL POSSIBLY RELEVANT Information

Ccontinuing careful Examination of Said Information COMPARING Things That DIFFER and those that are THE SAME.

Towards EVER a WORKING Premise...

One THEN proceeds toward a POSSIBLE CONCLUSION on...which is THEN the BASIS of one's ASSERTION.

Where you and I differ in eeach our end result understanding, Turno, will be where one of us has somehow mis-fire somewhere within in some of that, at some point within its process.

My study of 1 Cor. 10, based on those principles, is in the Spoiler below...

Spoiler

Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt: 13:18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt. 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you. 13:20 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness. 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Exodus 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. 14:9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon. 14:10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD. 14:11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? 14:12 Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness. 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night. 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians. 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 14:29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

What had that actually been about?

And why does Paul even bring up that CRYSTAL CLEAR OBVIOUSLY DRY "Baptism" to begin with?

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Paul brought that up because he was talking about what this following baptism, symbolizes...

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

It symbolizes the fact it has resulted in - this here...

12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

He was talking about the issue of Who they now were IN Christ.

How that just as Israel had been baptized or IDENTIFIED WITH MOSES as the People OF GOD, so had the Corinthians been IDENTIFIED WITH PAUL via the SPIRIT's have Identefied them as one WITH Christ.

In other words, he is applying an IDENTIFICATION Principle ALSO common to God's plan and purpose FOR, WITH and IN the nation Israel, as the Israel of God - he is applying that same IDENTIFICATION Principle to the Body of Christ.

12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Baptize or submerge a white cloth into a container of red dye and one happens?

The red dye becomes one WITH the cloth.

In turn the white cloth ALSO BECOMES identified WITH said red dye - it BECOMES a RED cloth.

1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The moment the person believes Christ died for his sins, the Spirit baptizes him into the Body of Christ - that is to say, the Spirit does that through the faith or "can do - consider it done" power that is the operation of God.

He performs a spiritual circumcision that results in severing one from their identity WITH and IN Adam and then places them INTO a living union WITH Christ.

In other words, 1 Cor. 10 is very similar in content and context to this here in Romans 6 - which is the issue of that spiritual baptism or identification WITH Christ that the Spirit has performed in the Believer the moment he has trusted in Christ ALONE.

This here...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The Believer becomes identified WITH Christ as having died WITH and risen WITH Him in HIS Newness of Life.

1 Cor. 10, then, is basically the issue of the need for them to be conducting themselves as those having been identified WITH Christ.

In this, the OT's Israel of God had been "our fathers" - for they too had not only entered into an identification of sorts with "that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" - but had also been expected to live up to the standards of said Identification.

Same principle in both the Israel of God within the nation Israel, and the Body of Christ; different manifestation of said Identity.

Nevertheless, Rom. 5:6-8 towards you, Turbo.

I agree that Paul is using the Israelites being baptized into Moses as a example of how they are God's people when they were baptized into Christ.

You say it's a spiritual baptism then why does he use the example of water and says it twice? In chapter 1 we see they were water baptized some by Paul. Wouldn't they see it as water baptism and not spiritual?

 

[Danoh]

I agree that Paul is using the Israelites being baptized into Moses as a example of how they are God's people when they were baptized into Christ.

You say it's a spiritual baptism then why does he use the example of water and says it twice? In chapter 1 we see they were water baptized some by Paul. Wouldn't they see it as water baptism and not spiritual?

:chuckle: Geez can you be insistently obtuse - 1 Cor. 1 and 1 Cor.10 are not the same kind of baptism.

Only the same principle - of Identification WITH a thing.

I'd lay all that out again, and this one also, but you well know you are married to your "well, never mind studying a thing out in depth in all of Scripture - what it means to me is..."

Rom. 5:6-8 towards ya.

 

[turbosixx]

:chuckle: Geez can you be insistently obtuse - 1 Cor. 1 and 1 Cor.10 are not the same kind of baptism.

Only the same principle - of Identification WITH a thing.

I'd lay all that out again, and this one also, but you well know you are married to your "well, never mind studying a thing out in depth in all of Scripture - what it means to me is..."

Rom. 5:6-8 towards ya.

I know they're not the same but Paul could have easily said dry land. If Paul is not referring to water baptism then why does Paul mention the cloud and sea which are obviously water and not the dry land that you want to force in there?