Genesis-Revelation.
ECT Matthew 24:3ff is spoken to the very elect of God
- Thread starter Cross Reference
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Genesis-Revelation.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Lots of special people. No wonder Judaism didn't want to include the prophets as divine as the torah.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Verse 27 speaks of His coming while verse 28 speaks of His appearing in his kingdom. Can you not tell the difference?
Verse 27 does not say anything about the Lord rewarding anyone at His appearance in the kingdom but only as His coming.
But you are the one who says that He came in 70AD but you can give no evidence from the Scriptures that He rewarded anyone then.
Let us look at this verse in more detail:
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (Mt.16:27).
At another place the Lord Jesus said exactly what will happen when He comes in glory with His angels:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).
Since you have no place in your eschatology for the fulfillment of this event you just deny that it will ever happen!
Cross Reference
New member
This new brand of Russellism, according to wikileaks, isn't supported by any theologian [Spurgeon, Sproul, et al] worth his salt given the topic has low priority on their theological schedule for learning the scriptures. This because of their concern has always been on the issue of defending their position re salvation. In other words, they really have no opinion about anything else.
Verse 28 speaks of His coming, as does verse 27
(Matt 16:28) Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
What is this "appearance in the kingdom" that you are referring to? Verse 27 says Christ Jesus will come, and then reward men.
(Matt 16:27) For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
The scriptures tell us that He came in 70AD because we know all the signs he gave in Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 took place, and we know from secular history what happened to Jerusalem from 66AD - 70AD.
Everything played out exactly how Jesus said it would.
The verse proves you wrong.
That happened in 70AD
Jesus sat down in the kingdom upon the throne of His glory, and He sits there right now and rules with the Saints.
It all fits perfect with my eschatology. You have to make up three comings of the Lord, a secret rapture, a secret parenthetical dispensation, a secret people, two gospels, and all kinds of other ridiculous things to make your eschatology work.
You should really learn the difference between wikileaks and wikipedia.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look sat this verse:
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Mt.16 27-28).
One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "coming" at Matthew 16:28 is "to appear" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Therefore, we can understand that the Lord Jesus was saying that there were some of the Apostles who would see the Lord Jesus "appearing" in His kingdom before they died. And that happened at the Transfiguration.
This has not yet happened:
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." (Lk.21:25-26).
Well known preterist author Gary DeMar gave the following definition for the Greek word oikoumene:
"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).
There has never been a time when a judgment came upon a land mass as large as the area of land first century Christians knew of their world.
And since the prophecies of Luke 21:25-26 have not yet been fulfilled then we know with certainity that the prophecy which follows has not yet been fulfilled:
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk.21:27).
Despite all these facts you assert that He has already returned!
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Cross Reference
New member
Yeah, sure. And you need to label people differently than you do so you know who you are talking to. But you won't because you don't care. You just need to be right.
It was 6 days later Jerry.
If it was something that was going to happen in 6 days, why would Jesus tell them "some of you will not taste death" for an event 6 days away?
Don't you realize how stupid that sounds?
Not one of Jesus' Disciples or Apostles died before the cross for being a follower of Jesus, let alone 6 days later.
Also, you don't have Jesus in His kingdom then. You don't even have Him in His kingdom right now. You have Him still sitting at the right hand of God the Father.
So, not only is your 6 day theory ridiculous, so is the part about the Apostles seeing Jesus in a kingdom that you claim is on planet earth, and hasn't happened yet.
Do you read your posts before you click "submit reply"?
They're embarrassing Jerry.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a follower of John Nelson Darby.
Spam-that's his best shot, when getting embarrassed-"Darby."
Total: 104 out of his last 151 "posts" have his "Darby" spam/stumper.
That "If it looks like a duck...," you think is real cute, don't you, Craigie?
Like you "everyone" saw the Saviour return in AD 70, "everyone" being Josephus, and His return was the Roman army, eh, Craigie the Clownie?
Big Top Tettie....flap them Bozo shoes...
Interplanner
Well-known member
Josephus didn't mention seeing that, although he mentioned other inexplicable signs, and the voice from holiest place saying 'we are departing' in Aramaic.
One thing that is common to Josephus and Caiaphas in Jn 12 and 18 is the belief that a revolt would ruin the country and that this revolt was predicted in Dan 8-9, and 9's 490 years were ending at this time. Josephus was a trained priest and learned this that way. Caiaphas deals with this by intervening; he thought his stopping Jesus would reduce the risk with Rome or otherwise appease Rome so that the whole country did not perish. He wouldn't have had that on his mind without the Dan 9's 490 years ending, the end of the times/periods/ages mentioned in a couple places in the NT.
One thing that is common to Josephus and Caiaphas in Jn 12 and 18 is the belief that a revolt would ruin the country and that this revolt was predicted in Dan 8-9, and 9's 490 years were ending at this time. Josephus was a trained priest and learned this that way. Caiaphas deals with this by intervening; he thought his stopping Jesus would reduce the risk with Rome or otherwise appease Rome so that the whole country did not perish. He wouldn't have had that on his mind without the Dan 9's 490 years ending, the end of the times/periods/ages mentioned in a couple places in the NT.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What is embarrassing for you is the fact that you did not even attempt to address what I said about your remarks here:
This has not yet happened:
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." (Lk.21:25-26).
Well known preterist author Gary DeMar gave the following definition for the Greek word oikoumene:
"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).
There has never been a time when a judgment came upon a land mass as large as the area of land first century Christians knew of their world.
And since the prophecies of Luke 21:25-26 have not yet been fulfilled then we know with certainity that the prophecy which follows has not yet been fulfilled:
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk.21:27).
Despite all these facts you assert that He has already returned!
Interplanner
Well-known member
Jerrys,
Some of those things did occur during that time; the Roman Empire nearly fell apart and the Idumeans nearly invaded as allies of the zealots to bust up the perimeter of the Mediterranean. And others.
But let's back up to this proposition: the NT doesn't mix 1st century Judean events and the worldwide judgement of God which is still future. There are too many scriptures about both the former and the latter and too many examples that they don't mix.
I agree that Luke (Paul) makes it sound seamless, but Mark and Matthew do not. And then there's the question of 2 Pet 3: why was it written if it was not dealing with actual scoffers? We know why nothing is said about Israel, but it is about the coming day of judgement.
Some of those things did occur during that time; the Roman Empire nearly fell apart and the Idumeans nearly invaded as allies of the zealots to bust up the perimeter of the Mediterranean. And others.
But let's back up to this proposition: the NT doesn't mix 1st century Judean events and the worldwide judgement of God which is still future. There are too many scriptures about both the former and the latter and too many examples that they don't mix.
I agree that Luke (Paul) makes it sound seamless, but Mark and Matthew do not. And then there's the question of 2 Pet 3: why was it written if it was not dealing with actual scoffers? We know why nothing is said about Israel, but it is about the coming day of judgement.
Keep reading Luke 21 Jerry
(Luke 21:32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
No matter how hard you try, you can't make the words of Jesus mean something they don't.
We know from secular history that all of Luke 21 happened EXACTLY how Jesus said it would. It all happened in the first century, and came to an end in 70AD
Like the Saviour's return, was the Roman army, eh, Craigie the Clownie? And everyone saw Him, although He never returned physically, Bozo?
No, it didn't-you "invented" that, Craigie. You had to have some "fallable" "man," teach you that, Craigie, J. Stuart Russel, as you cannot ascertain that from the bible.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Tet,
have you put 'the powers of heaven will be shaken' in a figurative category even though nation vs nation etc , and cardiac stress is in ordinary language, and why?
have you put 'the powers of heaven will be shaken' in a figurative category even though nation vs nation etc , and cardiac stress is in ordinary language, and why?
Ok Boys and Girls, it's time to play Johnny W Math:
:dizzy:
:dizzy:
I believe Satan and the fallen angels were thrown out of heaven in 70AD
(Rev 12:9) So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.