ECT Matthew 24:30: Question For the Preterists

[Arsenios]

The "Orthodox" what approach?

The Orthodox preterism approach?

The Orthodox church approach?

Don't tell anyone - We are off topic...

A-Millennial...

Satan was bound for the thousand years of the Roman Empire's rule in Constantinople...

Have you not noticed how the days are shortened even now?

This generation shall not pass until all these things have come to pass...

They all come to pass in every generation...

The end is nigh, even at the door...

Keyword is "some"...

There are some standing here who shall not taste of death before seeing the Kingdom of Heaven come in Glory...

And then some did see...

John and Peter and Iakovos...

Knocked 'em flat, remember?

He is describing the walk of the holy ones of God...

From generation to generation...

Few walk it...

SOME do...

Every generation...

Arsenios

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus was already there. What does it mean "...till the Son of Man be come."?

It means the same thing the Lord Jesus said here when He was already there:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (Mt.16:27).​

You look at Matthew 12:28 (just two chapters later) and Jesus makes it clear that the kingdom is already there.

Of course you just ignore this passage which I previously quoted that shows that the kingdom will not be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

And if the kingdom was in place at Matthew 12:28 then we must stand reason on its head and believe that all of the people on the earth were born again. After all, the Lord Jesus said:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3-5).​

What the Lord Jesus was saying at Matthew 12:28 is that since He casts out demons by the spirit of God then the kingdom of God has come in the sense that the King is right in front of them.

Or perhaps you are willing to argue that the kingdom of God actually came upon the Pharisees to whom He was addressing.

And who was He referring to in Matthew 12:49 if the disciples had already been sent out to other cities? Matthew 13:10-11 makes it clear that the disciples were still with Him. And in Matthew 13:55, it seems as though the disciples are still with Him...not sent out on their own.

Nothing there proves that anything which I previously said about Matthew 10:23 is in error.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This generation shall not pass until all these things have come to pass...

The word "generation" is obviously a mistranslation because no first century generation saw a world wide judgment on unbelievers:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

 

[nikolai_42]

It means the same thing the Lord Jesus said here when He was already there:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (Mt.16:27).​

Of course you just ignore this passage which I previously quoted that shows that the kingdom will not be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

And if the kingdom was in place at Matthew 12:28 then we must stand reason on its head and believe that all of the people on the earth were born again. After all, the Lord Jesus said:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3-5).​

What the Lord Jesus was saying at Matthew 12:28 is that since He casts out demons by the spirit of God then the kingdom of God has come in the sense that the King is right in front of them.

Or perhaps you are willing to argue that the kingdom of God actually came upon the Pharisees to whom He was addressing.



Nothing there proves that anything which I previously said about Matthew 10:23 is in error.

Two brief points :

1. If the disciples wouldn't make it to all the cities in Israel before the Son of Man comes, what does that say about the gospel going to all the world before the end?

2. The verses about the kingdom being at hand only prove my point. Jesus ministry was started preaching the same thing ("The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...") in Matthew 3:2 and Matthew 4:17. Then, in Matthew 10, Jesus has the disciples preaching the same thing (Matthew 10:7). If it was "at hand" at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, how can one put 2000 years of intervening requirements before the kingdom advances any (from being merely "at hand")? The point I'm making is that to take things literally here puts one in a bind.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Two brief points :

1. If the disciples wouldn't make it to all the cities in Israel before the Son of Man comes, what does that say about the gospel going to all the world before the end?

You missed the whole point about what I said at Matthew 10:23. the Twelve stopped preaching that the kingdom is near because it was no longer near. And preaching that the kingdom is near was what their commission was all about.

2. The verses about the kingdom being at hand only prove my point. Jesus ministry was started preaching the same thing ("The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...") in Matthew 3:2 and Matthew 4:17. Then, in Matthew 10, Jesus has the disciples preaching the same thing (Matthew 10:7). If it was "at hand" at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, how can one put 2000 years of intervening requirements before the kingdom advances any (from being merely "at hand")? The point I'm making is that to take things literally here puts one in a bind.

Obviously the nearness of the kingdom at the beginning of the Lord's ministry was put on hold because of the nation's refusal to accept the Lord Jesus. And who can deny that now it will not be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns?:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

 

[musterion]

Two brief points :

1. If the disciples wouldn't make it to all the cities in Israel before the Son of Man comes, what does that say about the gospel going to all the world before the end?

Israel didn't repent. That's key.

2...If it was "at hand" at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, how can one put 2000 years of intervening requirements before the kingdom advances any (from being merely "at hand")? The point I'm making is that to take things literally here puts one in a bind.

Not it doesn't because Israel didn't repent.

 

[steko]

Israel didn't repent. That's key.



Not it doesn't because Israel didn't repent.

Correct!

Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, ................................

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted,...................

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ[Mashiyach], which before was preached unto you:

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Israel didn't repent. That's key.



Not it doesn't because Israel didn't repent.

My apologies muster, I ran short on meekness and charity last night.

Acts 2:22 KJV


22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know :


Acts 2:41 ASV


41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added [unto them] in that day about three thousand souls.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Correct!

Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, ................................

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted,...................

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ[Mashiyach], which before was preached unto you:

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Be converted.

Or be cutoff.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Don't tell anyone - We are off topic...

A-Millennial...
Satan was bound for the thousand years of the Roman Empire's rule in Constantinople...

Have you not noticed how the days are shortened even now?

This generation shall not pass until all these things have come to pass...

They all come to pass in every generation...

The end is nigh, even at the door...

Keyword is "some"...

There are some standing here who shall not taste of death before seeing the Kingdom of Heaven come in Glory...

And then some did see...

John and Peter and Iakovos...

Knocked 'em flat, remember?

He is describing the walk of the holy ones of God...

From generation to generation...

Few walk it...

SOME do...

Every generation...

Arsenios

:dunce:

 

[Interplanner]

It looks like this is bogged down at Musterion's mistakes in #66.

The kingdom was given to another people to produce its fruit Mt21. It is active, present and doing what it is supposed to. Paul said twice that the Gospel had reached the world. The Mt 21 passage even calls this people a 'nation.' Some of this 'nation' are Jews.

The restitution is not made to Israel. That is a term that theft has occurred and the goods are being restored. That would be to Christ. And Christ will give the kingdom to the Father.

To recieve in Acts 3 is a courtly, royalty term. He is reigning even 'though the eye of sinful man / his glory may not see.' If people do not think he is reigning, it is because the remaining enemies have mucked up the announcement.

 

[Arsenios]

:dunce:

Revelation is the future history of the Christian Faith until the 2nd coming... So also is Matthew, for it describes in one teaching both the path of Salvation of the person in the Faith, but also that of the Body of Christ of which that person is a baptized member...

Being a future directive history of both the believer and the Body of Christ, it constitutes a Mystery for discernment, which is why we are still having all manner of disagreeablenesses over it even here on this very forum 2000 years after its composition...

You see, the believer who is mature in the Faith and is "no longer I but Christ in me" IS, in a Mysterious and Holy way, the Body of Christ, and it is these that are the goal, the telos, of the Life of the Body of Christ on earth... And it is these that 'carry' the rest of us who lack their maturity IN Christ...

The Marriage of the Lamb is for each of us, yet few in this life find its consummation... Those who do are the ones whose (usually) unseen works sustain the world... (For evil is ever-parasitic)... The future history of the Faith of Christ is for those who are maturing in the faith of Christ...

It is not for the carnal who hurl invective as their stock in trade...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Satan was bound for the thousand years
of the Roman Empire's rule in Constantinople...

:dunce:

Yup -

While your ancestors in Europe were living in damp mud huts with little heat and less light...

The Byzantines prospered, until the Europeans came and killed and raped and plundered the Great City, and the Ottoman's could then conquer it and call themselves the Rulers of the Roman Empire...

Constantine in the 4th century...
Turks in the 14th century...

You can do the math...

That be a thousand year rule...
Christianity the Law of the land...

Nothing like it, before or since...
The USA is collapsing after only a couple of centuries...

The time in history of the end is pretty much at hand...
Iran with Nuclear weapons will seal the deal...

The forces of evil are on the march...
The Liberty Bell is cracked in PA...

Arsenios

 

[musterion]

Yup -

While your ancestors in Europe were living in damp mud huts with little heat and less light...

The Byzantines prospered, until the Europeans came and killed and raped and plundered the Great City, and the Ottoman's could then conquer it and call themselves the Rulers of the Roman Empire...

Constantine in the 4th century...
Turks in the 14th century...

You can do the math...

That be a thousand year rule...
Christianity the Law of the land...

Nothing like it, before or since...
The USA is collapsing after only a couple of centuries...

The time in history of the end is pretty much at hand...
Iran with Nuclear weapons will seal the deal...

The forces of evil are on the march...
The Liberty Bell is cracked in PA...

Arsenios

Christendom, not biblical Christianity. But I don't expect you to see the distinction.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Yup -

While your ancestors in Europe were living in damp mud huts with little heat and less light...

The Byzantines prospered, until the Europeans came and killed and raped and plundered the Great City, and the Ottoman's could then conquer it and call themselves the Rulers of the Roman Empire...

Constantine in the 4th century...
Turks in the 14th century...

You can do the math...

That be a thousand year rule...
Christianity the Law of the land...

Nothing like it, before or since...
The USA is collapsing after only a couple of centuries...

The time in history of the end is pretty much at hand...
Iran with Nuclear weapons will seal the deal...

The forces of evil are on the march...
The Liberty Bell is cracked in PA...

Arsenios

Satan was not bound while those giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils were in control.

 

[Interplanner]

I think the idea of the NT about Satan's binding is that if he really was loose, there would be no faith at all, no tolerance at all, no civilization. Satan hates this place because many ordinary good things about it are God's truth about our world, from Gen 1-11 etc., and Satan can't stand the idea of anything but his lies being known by people. He continues to disinform at a certain plateau of success; never winning, but never disappearing either.

 

[Arsenios]

I think the idea of the NT about Satan's binding is that if he really was loose, there would be no faith at all, no tolerance at all, no civilization. Satan hates this place because many ordinary good things about it are God's truth about our world, from Gen 1-11 etc., and Satan can't stand the idea of anything but his lies being known by people. He continues to disinform at a certain plateau of success; never winning, but never disappearing either.

That is kind of the whole point - The fall of Adam cast mankind under the reign of death, where we are born, live, suffer and die, IF we live a "natural" life... Death is our master, for we are cut off from Life due to the Fall... Paul writes of this death into which we are all born: "On account of which (death) ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God..." And because all have sinned, all die... Except Christ, Who could not be killed on the Cross, but had to give up His Own Spirit by His Own act of will... John 19:30

By His voluntary death Christ entered Hades and there by His might He overcame the gates of hell therein... This is why we are baptized into His death, voluntary, on the Cross of Pain and Suffering, for His sake forsaking our own death-riddled life, and finding therein the Life of Christ in us, and us in Him...

Satan had ruled the world except for the Jews up to the time of Christ, and the Jews had a hard time living the Law, and sinned even while obeying it... Christ overthrew the power of death in Himself by voluntarily dying a sinless death, which is why we are baptized into Christ, that death no longer reign in us, but that we live in Peace no matter what the world might do to us...

Satan pursues the Woman, the Church, the Bride of Christ, and She flees from him, keeping to Christ alone - That is the story of Revelation... He was bound a thousand years in the Roman Empire, about half that in the Russian Empire under the Czars, and about half that again under the Christian Protestants in the USA...

We are living in the end times of world history...

The days are shortening...

Arsenios

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

And because all have sinned, all die... Except Christ, Who could not be killed on the Cross, but had to give up His Own Spirit by His Own act of will... John 19:30

Arsenios

Once again yer assumptions based on yer knowledge of scripture prove to be less than stellar.




Genesis 25:8 KJV


8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost , and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.


Genesis 25:17 KJV

17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died ; and was gathered unto his people.


Genesis 35:29 KJV


29 And Isaac gave up the ghost , and died , and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.


Lamentations 1:19 KJV


19 I called for my lovers , but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.


Mark 15:37 KJV



37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost .



Luke 23:46 KJV


46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said , Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost .


John 19:30 KJV


30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said , It is finished : and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.



Acts 5:5 KJV


5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down , and gave up the ghost : and great fear came on all them that heard these things.


Acts 12:23 KJV


23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost .

 

[Danoh]

I think the idea of the NT about Satan's binding is that if he really was loose, there would be no faith at all, no tolerance at all, no civilization. Satan hates this place because many ordinary good things about it are God's truth about our world, from Gen 1-11 etc., and Satan can't stand the idea of anything but his lies being known by people. He continues to disinform at a certain plateau of success; never winning, but never disappearing either.

Yep, Job was not tempted by the Adversary - Satan was not really loose walking about in the Earth - never mind what that walking about "symbolized" Job 2: 1-2.

Luke 4:

5. And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Poor ol Job, and Luke, and the Adversary himself, and also Peter - he too was also off-base when he related the Adversary walking about as a lion, 1 Peter 5:8.

Lol, would they'd had your book writer; Stott, to straighten them out.

 

[Interplanner]

Oh, does Stott not believe in a personal Satan, I don't know. I don't know what you are connected me to Stott for except there is a good quote of his on Eph 3A, about what was mysterious since everyone in the OT knew that God's word would get to the nations.