Male-circumcision saves MILLIONS of lives!

Elia

Well-known member
The original text is not divided along "chapter and verse" constraints. Perhaps you should start at the BEGINNING of Isaiah's prophecy concerning messiah:

Bs"d

Perhaps you start with realizing that it is not a prophecy concerning the messiah.


According to Christianity, the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and the last verses of chapter 52, from verse 13, are talking about Jesus. Why do they think so? Because the NT says so, and because it fits so nicely with the Christian story about a suffering messiah. And what proof do the Christians have that the subject in Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, is the messiah?

Nothing.

There is not the slightest indication, let alone a proof, that the servant of God, mentioned in Isaiah 53, is the messiah. In the authentic messianic prophecies there is always a sign that it talks about the messiah, the anointed king. ("messiah" means "anointed one") In the real messianic prophecies it speaks about a king, or about a ruler, or about a descendend of David, or about a descendend of Isai, the father of David. But here in Isaiah 53 is nothing like that. Also the word "messiah" is not used in Isaiah 53. There is not the slightest hint toward a messiah. It just speaks about the servant of God. And NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Hebrew Bible, is the messiah ever referred to as "the servant of God". So Christianity is making up fairy tales here.

Besides this, saying Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah runs into several problems. The prophet Isaiah is talking in the present/past tense; verse 3 and 4: “He is despised and rejected of men” “We hid as it were our faces from him, he was despised, and we esteemed him not” It goes on like this in the past tense up to verse ten. This is not the way the prophets announce future events, by saying that they already happened. The King James Version says in verse 2: "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant." Future tense. However; this is wrong. Here is absolutely positively spoken in the past tense. Compare the Revised Standard Version, it gives this verse correctly in the past tense. A quick course in exegesis for confused Christians: When a prophet speaks in the past tense, then he speaks about events that happened already. This is commonly called 'History'. Prophecy is about things that are going to happen in the future. History is the opposite of prophecy. Therefore, when a prophet speaks in the past tense, he is not prophesying. These elementary facts were well known to the people whom translated the KJV, therefore they corrupted the translation and changed past tense to future tense, so that they could squeeze in Jesus.

When the prophet Isaiah switches to the future tense, he describes events that are not applicable to Jesus; verse 10: “When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,” He was not married, how is he going to see his seed?

Verse 12: “Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” This essential part he did not fulfill. Only the simple part he did, as usually; being sick, suffering, dying; the part that can apply to millions of people, and the key part is going to happen in some unknown future.


For the whole story about Isaiah 53 look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

Perhaps you start with realizing that it is not a prophecy concerning the messiah. [re: Isa 52:13-15]

Of course! YOU are "the Messiah", so there is no-need for a (singular) "Messiah".

1) Jews are being punished by God
2) Jews souls are being made an offering for sin
3) Jews souls see travail
4) Jews are "justifying many"
5) Jews are "baring other's iniquities"
6) Jewish souls is being poured out unto death

Isaiah 52:13-15:
Behold, my servant [Jews] shall deal prudently, he [Jews] shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Clearly evident to every Gentile!
As many were astonished at thee [Jews]; his [Jews'] visage was so marred more than any mankind, and his [Jews] form more than the sons of mankind:
- Pretty obvious to any Goy!
So shall he [Jews] sprinkle many nations [Gentiles]; the kings shall shut their mouths at him [Jews]: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Let the sprinkling begin!
-
 

Elia

Well-known member
Of course! YOU are "the Messiah", so there is no-need for a (singular) "Messiah".

Bs"d

I'm not the messiah, Israel is not the messiah, these are all wrong ideas coming up in your mind because you have been brainwashed with the erroneous idea that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

1) Jews are being punished by God

Of course they are.

2) Jews souls are being made an offering for sin

An offering for their own sins.

3) Jews souls see travail

Yes, just like everybody else.

4) Jews are "justifying many"

Jews are the teachers of the world, and so they justify many.

5) Jews are "baring other's iniquities"

No, also that is nowhere written in Isaiah 53. Jews bare their own iniquities.

6) Jewish souls is being poured out unto death

All the time.

"Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high."

>> As the prophets announce, Israel will be exalted, see Isaiah 60, 61, and 62.

"As many were astonished at him -- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men "

>> The servant Israel was no longer a nation when they were several times dispersed over the whole earth. People were astonished about what happened to the Jews; persecutions, crusaders who wiped out complete Jewish communities before they took off to the holy land, including women and children. There was the Christian inquisition, who had the horrible habit of torturing Jews to death, there was the holocaust in which Christian Europe murdered six million civilians, amongst them 1,500,000 children, there was plenty of reason to be upset about what befell the Jews.

"so shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand."

>> The world will be very surprised when the Jews, after almost 2000 years of exile, will come back to the holy land, and against all odds, will become very prominent amongst the nations.

"Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground;

>> With 70 souls Jacob moved to Egypt, and there, in the arid ground, despite all the hardships imposed upon the Jews, Israel became a great people.


"he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him."

>> But it was a slave people, in a horrible way suppressed by the Egyptians, who also committed genocide on the Jewish boys.

"He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

>> In Egypt, but also during the other exiles, Israel was acquainted with disasters: deportations, torture, killings. Under those conditions nobody was very happy to be a Jew. The people of Israel was despised, even by the Jews themselves who had to endure all these disasters. In those circumstances, being a Jew was not something to be happy about.

"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted."

>> Because Israel strayed away from Gods ways, it incurred the punishment connected to those sins, just like we see throughout the whole history of Israel. They correctly assumed that Israel was smitten and afflicted by God.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed."

>> Israel was severely punished for the sins of Israel, and through the punishment acquired the cure, the total remission of sins.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."


>> Israel strayed away from the law of God, and God brought the punishment for those sins upon Israel.


"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."

Psalm 44: "But for Your sake we are killed all day long; We are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
A good example of that is the holocaust, in which the Jews went like sheep to the slaughter.


"By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living,"

>> When Israel was overrun by their enemies and led into exile, it was dead as a nation. The land of Israel didn't exist anymore.

"stricken for the transgression of my people".

>> Israel stricken for the sins of Israel.

"And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth."


>> Israel was conquered by and led in exile to the nations who were then economically and military on top of the world: "With a rich man in his death".
The reason for the punishment was idolatry, and not violence or deceit.


"Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief;"

>> God punished Israel.

"when you make him an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;"

>> When Israel repents, and accepts the punishment from God, Israel will live again, and God's plan with Israel shall proceed.

"he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;"

>> Because Israel has been punished for it's sins, "it's travail", their sins are abolished, and God's plan for Israel will play itself out, and Israel shall see it "until satisfaction".

"by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities."

>> Israel shall through it's knowledge of God and his laws, knowledge not revealed to any other nation, turn many Israelites to a righteous path: "Fear God and observe his commandments". But when Israel strays, it will receive the punishment from God.

"Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Israel will be lifted up, because it repented from it's sins, and was severely punished for it's sins. It was (correctly) numbered with the transgressors, it bore the sins of many, and the righteous amongst them prayed for the sinners.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

I'm not the messiah, Israel is not the messiah, these are all wrong ideas coming up in your mind because you have been brainwashed with the erroneous idea that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Wrong! Your fellow Jew on this board states otherwise. He states that Isaiah refers to the suffering of Jews for the salvation of mankind (a very common belief among Jews). At the very least, Jews applied it to Messiah ben Joseph. Better get a refund from your "Yeshiva".

BTW, you are to "evangelize" mankind concerning obedience to the NoHide Laws. Nobody has been knocking on my door.

Clearly "Messianic":
"by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities."
 

Elia

Well-known member
Wrong! Your fellow Jew on this board states otherwise. He states that Isaiah refers to the suffering of Jews for the salvation of mankind (a very common belief among Jews). At the very least, Jews applied it to Messiah ben Joseph. Better get a refund from your "Yeshiva".

Bs"d

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion, and those opinions don't bite each other, they might both be true.

Judaism is not about what you believe, it's about what you do.

And we do the laws of God.

BTW, you are to "evangelize" mankind concerning obedience to the NoHide Laws. Nobody has been knocking on my door.

I'm knocking loudly on your digital door: YOU HAVE TO OBSERVE THE SEVEN NOACHIDE LAWS!!!

1) Establish courts of law.

2) Do not murder

3) Do not worship idols

4) Do not blaspheme

5) Do not steal.

6) Do not commit adultery

7) Do not eat the limbs of a live animal.

Keep the seven go to heaven!
 

Elia

Well-known member
Clearly "Messianic":
"by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities."

Bs"d

Please give me your BIBLICAL proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

I'm very curious.

When you're done I'll happily give you the Biblical proof from the Tanach that it speaks about Israel.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

Bs"d

And then only silence remained...
 

Elia

Well-known member
Bs"d

Another question, maybe you can answer this one, it's a very simple one:

When Isaiah speaks about the "servant of God", is he then speaking about God Himself, or about somebody else?

"Thus says Y-H-W-H of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Zech 8:23

Bs"d

And then only silence remained...
 

God's Truth

New member
Bs"d

Christians, having thrown all God's laws overboard, and having replaced them with paganism and idolatry, have also abolished God's circumcision commandment.

God says: "Then Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised."
Lev 12:3

For Christians it is an abominiation to do the law of God, and get circumcised, and to circumcise their sons.

However, in the real world it has turned out that male circumcision (the real one, in the flesh, not the imaginary one of the heart) is saving MILLIONS of lives.

So with that God is again proving the Christians wrong.

For the finer details look HERE.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”

Joshua 24:14-15

Jesus fulfilled the law. Circumcision in the flesh was about a physical sign and seal for the people of God, it was a prophecy, a teaching tool, a shadow of something better, Jesus Christ.

Circumcision of the flesh is now mutilation of the flesh because it is no longer commanded by God.

Through Jesus Christians receive the Holy Spirit as the sign and seal.

Think for yourself, is circumcision of the heart by Jesus not better than circumcision of the flesh?

Go study more about circumcision on the Internet.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d
YOU HAVE TO OBSERVE THE SEVEN NOACHIDE LAWS!!!

1) Establish courts of law. - there are laws in this country

2) Do not murder - check

3) Do not worship idols - plenty of manmade idols here, but I don't worship them

4) Do not blaspheme - check

5) Do not steal. - check

6) Do not commit adultery - check

7) Do not eat the limbs of a live animal. - I always barbecue them first
 

Elia

Well-known member
1) Establish courts of law. - there are laws in this country

2) Do not murder - check

3) Do not worship idols - plenty of manmade idols here, but I don't worship them

Bs"d

Worshipping a carpenter who died 2000 years ago is idolatry.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2
 

God's Truth

New member
Bs"d

Worshipping a carpenter who died 2000 years ago is idolatry.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2

All you have is worthless opinions.

Why don't you go get some knowledge from God?

Jesus tells you how to do it.

We are talking about Jesus and you are giving worthless opinions.

Go study John 7:17.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

Worshipping a carpenter who died 2000 years ago is idolatry.

No "images" here.

BTW, why don't you post the "qualifications" of The Messiah?
It seems all you know how to post is about the "unqualified" one.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Jesus fulfilled the law. Circumcision in the flesh was about a physical sign and seal for the people of God, it was a prophecy, a teaching tool, a shadow of something better, Jesus Christ.

Circumcision of the flesh is now mutilation of the flesh because it is no longer commanded by God.

Bs"d

The commandments of God are forever. They cannot be abolished by a carpenter.

Even that carpenter said the commandments are forever:
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 5

Think for yourself, is circumcision of the heart by Jesus not better than circumcision of the flesh?

Think for yourself; can anybody circumcise his heart? Should every male do open heart surgery?

Go and study on the internet and see that the real circumcision, that is the circumcision of the flesh, saves MANY MILLIONS of lives!

See here: https://sites.google.com/site/circlifesaver/
 

Elia

Well-known member
All you have is worthless opinions.

Why don't you go get some knowledge from God?

Jesus tells you how to do it.

Bs"d

He doesn't tell you how to do it, he tells you to worship him.

But I ain't going to worship no carpenter, I only worship the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

The commandments of God are forever. They cannot be abolished by a carpenter.

There are 613 Commandments in the Tanakh.
It seems that in 70 A.D., God made it impossible for you to obey.

But hey, if swaying your hips and bowing your head in front
of a ROMAN fortress wall makes you feel better...
 

God's Truth

New member
There are 613 Commandments in the Tanakh.
It seems that in 70 A.D., God made it impossible for you to obey.

But hey, if swaying your hips and bowing your head in front
of a ROMAN fortress wall makes you feel better...

Hahahahahahahah now that is an excellent point.
 

God's Truth

New member
Bs"d

He doesn't tell you how to do it, he tells you to worship him.

But I ain't going to worship no carpenter, I only worship the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2

We worship God by obeying Him.

You do not obey God.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
No "images" here.

Actually, Hebrews 1:3, 2 Cor 4:4 and Col 1:15 explicitly state that Jesus is the visible "image" of the invisible God...

a9e9c7cfb553f6dfdfb22d2cf5c61b45.jpg
 

Elia

Well-known member
We worship God by obeying Him.

Bs"d

You don't worship God, you worship a carpenter who died 2000 years ago:

"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19

You do not obey God.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 

Elia

Well-known member
Actually, Hebrews 1:3, 2 Cor 4:4 and Col 1:15 explicitly state that Jesus is the visible "image" of the invisible God...

Bs"d

"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19
 
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