ECT MADist thought for the day

[Nang]

1 Cor 6:11 (KJV)


ye are sanctified, ye are justified


Are you a saint, Nang?

I am a justified saint, being conformed and growing into the image of Jesus Christ, despite my earthly limitations and the law of sin that remains in my members.

 

[Jacob]

I believe we can talk about sanctification in a couple ways.

Our spirit is sanctified in Christ:

1Cr 1:2 KJV - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

This cannot be changed, and is Completely the work of God, when we believe.


Our soul can be sanctified:

1Th 5:23 KJV - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This requires action on our part, and God's, as we have to respond to our salvation.


And we will be ultimately sanctified when we meet God

Another.

So there is also we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. This is salvation (in an all encompassing view). But also that there was justification, is sanctification, and will be glorification. In this there are two views. One that sanctification is in between justification and glorification... the ongoing life of the Christian after they have been saved (justified) and before they have died (and then been glorified), in the ultimate salvation... it's summation or conclusion. (Some of this is my own words by way of explaining). The other view is that justification and glorification are included in or encompassed by sanctification... that sanctification begins when a person is justified and concludes when a person is glorified. Most believe this glorification is when a person dies (or when a still alive believer meets Jesus in the air at the rapture).

Also, it is said that a person who has been saved has salvation. We use these words in many different ways. It is important to study it out so we use the words as they are used in scripture, or else explain that we are using our own words. The words I have used are a mixture of what scripture says explicitly, and what people derive from scripture or Theology studies.

Soteriology is a Theological study of salvation.

 

[Nang]

One teaching I have heard is that a person who is a Christian has been justified, is being sanctified, and will be glorified.

Yes, this is good.

Christians are saved and are yet to be saved.

Such reflects the Reformed view.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, this is good.

Christians are saved and are yet to be saved.

Such reflects the Reformed view.

Many Protestants believe this. It is not limited to those who are Reformed.

Do you know the origin of this teaching (what you responded to)?

Your summation

Christians are saved and are yet to be saved.

may be believed by Catholics as well??

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

What I am combatting with you is the idea that we should not feel guilt for sin. This is how people continue on in sin, thinking everything is okay.

We should NOT feel guilt for sin. We are free from the law which condemned us. Christ bore the guilt and the condemnation which the law inflicted.

The late Reformed preacher D.M. Lloyd-Jones said that Christians do not sin against law. They sin against love. Your view that we must feel guilt is contrary to the gospel!

 

[Jacob]

We should NOT feel guilt for sin. We are free from the law which condemned us. Christ bore the guilt and the condemnation which the law inflicted.

The late Reformed preacher D.M. Lloyd-Jones said that Christians do not sin against law. They sin against love. Your view that we must feel guilt is contrary to the gospel!

There is no need for repentance if there is no sin. Guilt is the knowledge of sin.

I believe there is no condemnation for the believer.

Do you believe believers should sin because there is no condemnation?

I don't understand why you think guilt for sin is wrong.

Also, I haven't said "we must feel guilt". Those are your words.

 

[Nang]

Many Protestants believe this. It is not limited to those who are Reformed.

Do you know the origin of this teaching (what you responded to)?

I forget any direct quotes, but these are commonly used terms to explain progressive conversion and sanctification.

Your summation may be believed by Catholics as well??

I doubt it.

Roman Catholics (and all works-righteousness teachers) make ultimate justification contingent and dependent upon sanctified good works. Which convolutes the two doctrines badly.

 

[Jacob]

I forget any direct quotes, but these are commonly used terms to explain progressive conversion and sanctification.

I doubt it.

Roman Catholics (and all works-righteousness teachers) make ultimate justification contingent and dependent upon sanctified good works. Which convolutes the two doctrines badly.

I know many Catholics believe that salvation is in the future, for example... at judgment I believe.

 

[Nang]

I know many Catholics believe that salvation is in the future, for example... at judgment I believe.

Most equate salvation as being the ultimate justification, achieved through good (sanctified) works.

No good works (sanctification), no justification, no salvation.

Which is backwards to the Protestant view of being legally justified by faith alone, sanctified unto good works through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees the Christian salvation unto everlasting life and glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

 

[Jacob]

Most equate salvation as being the ultimate justification, achieved through good (sanctified) works.

No good works (sanctification), no justification, no salvation.

Which is backwards to the Protestant view of being legally justified by faith alone, sanctified unto good works through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees the Christian salvation unto everlasting life and glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

It appears to me that both the Catholic and Protestant views are incorrect, as you describe them.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

I don't understand why you think guilt for sin is wrong.

Christ took your guilt upon Himself. Why would you carry guilt when Christ carried it in upon Himself?

Do you even understand what Christ did for you?

Also, I haven't said "we must feel guilt". Those are your words.

Then why do you fault me for saying that we shouldn't feel guilt?

 

[Jacob]

Christ took your guilt upon Himself. Why would you carry guilt when Christ carried it in upon Himself?

Do you even understand what Christ did for you?


Then why do you fault me for saying that we shouldn't feel guilt?

Can you provide a verse to support your assertion that Christ took my guilt upon Himself? I'm not saying that is wrong, but my understanding is that I am free in Christ of sin and the consequences of sin because He who knew no sin became sin on my behalf.

I've explained why I find a fault in what you are saying. I find fault because I find fault with people saying that (first) unbelievers should not feel guilt for sin and (second) believers should not feel guilt for sin. This leads to unrepentance (first) and complacency in sin (second). People who say they are Christians and desire to live their Christian life without guilt and without repentance, will find it difficult to know what to do when they discover that they have sinned. It is difficult to say a person has not been saved at all... but if a person speaks lightly of sin as if it is of no issue, I do question their salvation. But God is the judge and He is the one who knows who is saved. And Paul says that the one who claims to be a believer should cease from practicing wickedness.

 

[john w]

That's right.
The fruit of the Spirit ought to be evident eventually, otherwise a person's faith will seem superficial.

2Peter 1:5-9
But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Gal. 5 KJV
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Pay attention-fruit(singular).


Not all fruit is visible, chip.

Show us a jar of your "love."

 

[andyc]

Christ took your guilt upon Himself. Why would you carry guilt when Christ carried it in upon Himself?

Do you even understand what Christ did for you?


Then why do you fault me for saying that we shouldn't feel guilt?

You're talking about past sins. If people are feeling guilty about things that they believe they are cleansed of, this is in fact unbelief.
But if I now do what I know is wrong, guilt should inevitably follow.

Romans 6:21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

 

[Jacob]

Guilt is the knowledge that you have sinned.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Can you provide a verse to support your assertion that Christ took my guilt upon Himself?

Isaiah 53:10-11

 

[Jacob]

Isaiah 53:10-11

Are you using a translation that has the word "guilt" in these two verses?

 

[One In Christ]

Christ took your guilt upon Himself. Why would you carry guilt when Christ carried it in upon Himself?

Do you even understand what Christ did for you?


Then why do you fault me for saying that we shouldn't feel guilt?

Set sin aside for a second.

Do we know the difference between right and wrong? Should we feel guilt for doing wrong?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Yes. Justification is a forensic (legal) ruling of pardon executed by God.




Yes. Sanctification is the result of Justification. The condemned criminal is legally pardoned and set free and enabled to live a new life that proves to be holy, righteous, thankful, and openly submissive to the sovereign will of God.

This is genuine "conversion" from darkness to light; from death to life; from being condemned by God to standing in His grace.

Those who claim to be pardoned, but do not evidence spiritual conversion, through acts of faith and repentance, are suspect.

What part of holy and righteous includes slander?

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Are you using a translation that has the word "guilt" in these two verses?

See the Online Hebrew Interlinear for Isaiah 53:10-11.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm