The torment could be past and the smoke rises forever. There will be some torment of hell but not eternal torture
Lake of Fire Parable
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SonOfCaleb
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The Lake of Fire is symbolic. Its not a parable or allegorical.
The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 19:20; 20:14) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire. Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.
Since the lake of fire represents “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction [Of which there is no return], or the second death. Re 20:15.
The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 19:20; 20:14) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire. Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.
Since the lake of fire represents “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction [Of which there is no return], or the second death. Re 20:15.
musterion
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Then the Bible doesn't mean what it says. Your problem here is not mine.
But the verse doesn't SAY that the torment goes on forever. It says the Smoke does. The Bible means what it says, but it doesn't always say what people THINK it says. If the verse SAID that the torment when on forever, then this verse could be used to prove that the torment goes on forever, but since this verse does not say that the torment goes on forever, this verse can't be used to prove eternal torment. The Bible means what it says, and it doesn't mean what it doesn't say.
musterion
Well-known member
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm
The smoke OF THE TORMENT OF THEM forever goes up.
No other way to take it.
The smoke OF THE TORMENT OF THEM forever goes up.
No other way to take it.
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
Sodom still burning? Nah.
Not true. Those resurrected will be judged according to their works, but works do not produce salvation.
Yes, as I said THE SMOKE goes up from ages until ages. Not the βασανισμοῦ.
Re-read the passage, there is no other way to take it. The smoke rises forever. It simply doesn't say that there is eternal torment. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just pointing out what the verse actually says.
That's true, and I didn't say that works produce salvation. I said "Only those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will inherit eternal life."
Maybe I misunderstood, what did you mean by: "The wicked will be resurrected for judgment and then they will be destroyed, both soul and body."
Who are these wicked?
I don't know why don't understand my post. Don't you believe in the final resurrection and the final judgment? The Nicene Creed says "From there he will come to judge the quick and the dead" and "we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come".
It is basic Christianity that Jesus Christ will return to resurrect the dead and judge the wicked.
You asked "Who are these wicked?" You could read chapter one of Romans for an indication. I think you know who the wicked are though. Unrepentant Murders and the like. Watch the news, there is always a shooting on the news. Do you think that there are no wicked people? I don't understand your question. Are you trying to twist what I posted to make it seem that I believe that salvation is works based?
Not at all, but the penalty for sin is death. Revelation 20:5 is about two resurrections, the first resurrection and then a thousand years later the resurrection of the rest of the dead. The resurrection of the dead is about those who died and paid the penalty of death for their sins.
Since they paid their penalty there are no charges against them and the Book of Life is opened to them (Revelation 20:12).
Thnnks, I agree that the penalty for sin is death. I don't know what to make of passages from the Book of Revelation, since throughout time nobody has been able to agree on the meaning of the book.
Ok, but what about Paul's teachings? Paul said that what people earn for sin is death, and that the debt to the law (sin) will be paid.
Sinners can pay the debt themselves or they can ask the Father to charge the debt to Jesus Christ. Either way the debt will be paid.
A debt that has been paid is no longer owed, the sinner is freed.
For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:11)
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:11)
It's really simple, a debt that has been paid is no longer owed.
Okay, I agree that a debt that has been paid is no longer owed. For those who put their faith in the redemption of Jesus Christ, their debt has been paid by Jesus Christ. They no longer owe the debt of death, and thus they receive eternal life, no more death.
I agree with you that "sinners can pay the debt themselves." By dying, the debt will be paid. The main problem with doing this is that the sinner will then be dead. A person cannot have eternal life if they are dead. I'm not speaking figuratively here. If you are dead, then you are not alive. It wouldn't matter to the person that their debt is now paid because they are dead, not alive.
I think that the view that agrees that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" is true, according to the Bible.
So therefore, the resurrection of those who died. A resurrection means a person is brought back to life. These are the people the Father didn't call previously for salvation so now the Father gives them an opportunity for salvation through his Son.
It is the Father's will that everyone have an opportunity for salvation. This is their chance.
Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
Yes, for the devil and his angels, not for people.
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