KJ-ONLYite claims: Enyart does not believe The Bible is inerrant

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robycop3

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A Look At The KJVO Myth

A Look At The KJVO Myth

Rather than try to answer every individual post at this time, I believe it's time to examine the myth itself, and some of its points...and to show them wrong. This is in the light of someone saying Pastor Enyart has no Bible nor final authority because he doesn't subscribe to the KJVO myth.

First, what IS the KJVO myth? it is a set of doctrines that state that the King James Version is the ONLY valid English Bible translation there is, that the earlier English Bibles were incomplete and the later ones corrupt. This myth is believed in more or less degree by a small but vocal minority of Christians throughout the English-speaking world, as well as by some pseudo-Chritians and cult members. Now, let's briefly look at how it began.

The current KJVO myth began in 1930 when Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson, a SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST preacher/teacher/official, published an error-filled book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated. Some other people before this had proclaimed KJVOism, but they were little-known to the public-at-large, & there was no grass-roots KJVO movement. This book DID attract the attention of some if the general public, and marked the beginning of the current myth.

As I just said, this book is full of errors. Some of them are lesser-known to the public, such as his assumption that the Waldensian Bibles were based upon the Byzantine mss & not the Latin Vulgate. But many are much better-known, such as his assertion that the AV translators labored under great travail & suffering. Nothing could be further from the truth. Those men worked in the lap of luxury as provided by King James, and their boss, Archbishop Bancroft. He also missed the dates of the Council of Trent badly.

Now, let's look at one of his best-known errors...He asserted that Psalm 12:6-7 are about the preservation of God's words. I know he didn't ORIGINATE such foolishness, but, having access to a large library, one would think he woulda researched this item before writing it into his book. Clearly, he failed to do so. A simple reading of the AV 1611 woulda provided all the research he needed, as it has this marginal note for V7..."Heb.him, I. euery one of them". Also, the Geneva Bible has "him" in V7.

We recognize BW as the "daddy" of the modern KJVO myth because virtually every KJVO author who followed has copied at least SOME of his errors.

Wilkinson was followed by J.J.Ray who, in 1955, published God Wrote Only One Bible. This book copied almost half of Wilkinson's book, with some new assertions by Ray. For example, he gave a table of words, sentences, and verses he insisted were left out of modern Bibles, but he failed to provide one peep of PROOF that they belonged there in the first place. Thus, Ray became the first KJVO author to use circular reasoning, assuming without any proof that the KJV was always automatically right in every word. And, along with most of Wilkinson's lesser-known errors, he copied the Psalm 12:6-7 item. Once again, we see a KJVO author whose research was shoddy, to put it mildly. as he copied most of Wilkinson's goofs blindly, with virtually no research as to their veracity. BUT...RAY ADMITS IN HIS BOOK(PGs.30-31, 102)THAT THERE ARE SOME POOR TRANSLATIONS IN THE KJV THAT DEMAND REVISION! This fact is not mentioned by the large majority of the KJVO authors who followed Ray, and I don't know if this is due to lack of research or deliberate ignorance. But Ray failed to give ANY acknowledgement to Wilkinson for his work, upon which Ray's book much depended.

Ray's book had a much-larger readership than Wilkinson's, due to the broad reach of modern advertising media...but try to find any info about Ray himself. Why, if he believed what he wrote was so true, would he have used a pseudonym, if that's the case? His Eye-Opener Publications has a Eugene, Or. address but the few Jasper James or James Jasper Rays whoi've ever lived in that general area are NOT the author J.J.Ray. He supposedly died in the 1980s, but NO death notices for anyone with that name, or even being CLOSE to it can be found within ANY of the records of Eugene, or the surrounding counties. Why all the secrecy? What was Ray afraid of? The tax man, perhaps?

The next major KJVO author was Dr. David Otis Fuller, a regular Baptist pastor, who, in 1970, published Which Bible? In this book, he heavily copies both Wilkinson and Ray, while adding a few imaginations of his own. Almost one-half of this book is copied from Wilkinson, and much of the rest from Ray, copying most of their errors. For instance, he copied the Psalm 12:7 thingie almost verbatim. But unlike Ray, he at least gave some credit to Wilkinson, who died in 1968, for his work. But this is where his HONESTY ended. While editing out some of Wilkinson's errors, he also tried to conceal the fact that he was a CULT OFFICIAL. Current KJVOer Dr. Donald A. Waite with whom Fuller worked, has criticized him for this. (Fuller died 1988; Waite is still living as of this writing.) Fuller also re-arranged the views of the late Charles H. Spurgeon concerning the Textus Receptus, the Greek texts, and the KJV itself. (Since this is an overview and not a minutely-detailed study, I won't go off into the nuts & bolts of this misrepresentation; both Fuller's book and Spurgeon's writings are readily available.) He was the first to bring Dean John Burgon into the mix, as Burgon wrote a scathing denunciation of Westcott & Hort. He founded the "Dean Burgin Society", currently headed by Waite. What neither Fuller nor waite have mentioned is the fact that Burgon wrote an almost-equally-scathing critique of the Textus Receptus, stating in no uncertain terms that the TR needed extensive revision, citing some 120 verses in Matthew alone that needed changes, as he set forth in revision Revised, pgs. 17, 21(Note 3), 107-108. Thus, Waite is continuing some of Fuller's dishonesty.

Another thing Burgon believed was this: "But I would especially remind my readers of Bentley’s golden precept, that ‘The real text of the sacred writers does not now, since the originals have been so long lost, lie in any MS. or edition, but is dispersed in them all.’ This truth, which was evident to the powerful intellect of the great scholar, lies at the root of all sound Textual Criticism." (John Burgon, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels, ed. Edward Miller (1896; rpt. Collingswood, NJ: The Dean Burgon Society Press, 1998), p. 26.)

Fuller also distorted the views of Robert Dick Wilson, saying Wilson found no errors in the TR, masoretic text or the KJV, when indeed he HAD found errors. Again, I'll leave the minutiae to those interested.

We must regard Fuller as the main exponent of the current KJVO myth, as he was the first KJVO author with the full powers of worldwide media available, allowing him to easily hawk his wares worldwide. Thus we see that the KJVO myth was born in error, raised in more error, maturing in yet more error along with a large dose of DISHONESTY. How can ANY CHRISTIAN say this is from GOD?????????

Now, ler's look at some of the main doctrines of the KJVO myth as it stands todaystarting with some of the more heretical and ridiculous: (Note: I'm not gonna fool with the insanity of Peter Ruckman, the man who prophisied that Janet Reno was gonna have him whacked, and that the Antichrist will be a ten-foot tall black-lipped alien who will arrive in a spaceship a mile wide.)

1.) "Gimme the KJVO that Paul used!" ...Needs no comment; its absurdity is self-evident.

2.) "Psalm 12:6-7 are about the preservation of God's words."...The absurdity of this assertion is borne out by the AV 1611 itself, as written above.

3.) "The MVs deny the Deity of Christ by calling Joseph His father in Luke 2:43."...The morons who thought THIS one up didn't read their KJVs very well. All they had to have done was read FIVE VERSES FURTHER to have seen the KJV doung the SAME THING. This woulda saved them making fools of themselves. Same for the equally-stupid people who still hawk that drivel. The Greek in V 48 is "pater", which most people know means "father". And in Luke 2:27, where the KJV says "parents", the Greek is "goneus", which means...PARENTS. We ALL recognize Joseph as Jesus' earthly stepfather.

4.) "The English language reached its zenith in the late 1500s & has been "dumbed down: ever since."...a simple reading of any extant material from that time, and not just a Bible, quickly shows how absurd THAT one is!

5.) "The ONLY way to salvation is through coming to Christ by the reading of the KJV, or a version in another language made from the KJV."...This is patent heresy, adding a man-made requirement to GOD'S way of salvation. Salvation is by CHRIST HIMSELF, and not by any translation of His words.

6.) "God's word was purified in English seven times, culminating in the KJV." When was God's word NOT pure? What a crock. This assertion is HERETICAL.

7.) Finally, one which has been presented right here: " The multi-version or modern-version used has no final authority." First, there's not a bit of Scriptural support for such a silly notion. Second, the KJVO has no Scriptural permission to build his/her own final authority from any one Bible version. The TRUE Christian considers the TOTAL WORD OF GOD , and every part thereof, as the final written authority...NOT just one part, book, or chapter. This is a completely-unfounded point, based upon IMAGINATION AND GUESSWORK, and not FACT.

Those were a few of the more absurd, easily-shown-wrong points of the KJVO myth. Here are a few that the KJVOs assert, but cannot prove. As THEY are the "plaintiffs" in this case, THEY have the "burden of proof" to present evidence to prove these correct. With many years in which to do so, they've failed miserably.

8.) "The KJV is made from superior texts."...This is recognized by KJVOs as the only PROVABLE point of their whole program. However, it's mostly a game of "MY scholar can whup YOUR scholar". This debate has been going on for well over a hundred years, and is no closer to being resolved now than it was then. Right now, this assertion is not proven at all.

9.) "God has promised us a perfect Bible, and that Bible is the KJV."...There is NO SCRIPTURE where God promises a 100% purely-accurate, booboo-free Bible. Furthermore, if that was God's intent, HE, who made everything there is, could easily have preserved the original writings of His word, from the chronicler of Job onward and kept them before us all that time. This same GOD made every language & form of communication there is, and this same GOD oversees them all. More proof of this is seen in the uncontested fact that no one language will translate 100% into any other language.

And, taking the preservation verses fully in context, where's not one hint of His word's being preserved ONLY in the KJV or in only one version in any language whatsoever. When Jesus said, "Heaven & earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away", we must look at it with a PRACTICAL view. Millions of His words DID pass away. We have NO record of what He said before age 12. We have NO record of the actual words He used for mundane things such as buying a meal or performing carpentry work. We don't know what He wrote in the dust as the woman caught in adultery was brought before Him. What we DO have is every last thing JESUS wanted preserved. That is JESUS' intent in this verse, as reality proves.

10.) "Modern versions are made from the corrupt text of Westcott and Hort."...This is far from the truth. Modern Bible translators have many more mss available to them than did the AV men, or earlier translators. These translators do NOT rely upon just one set of mss or even one "family" of them. They use an eclectic mix of mss, compared with each other, to attempt to combine the various readings for the best translation, while considering older translations also, as did the AV men. Of course the works of W&H are CONSIDERED, but they do NOT serve alone as the basis for any newer version. It would be disingenuous of any modern translator, if not outright SINFUL, to not consider every available ancient source.

Next,, let's touch briefly upon OUR PROOFS that the KJVO myth is false.

1.) There's absolutely NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for One-Versionism of any kind, although in many ancient examples, there was only one version in one language available. But again, there's simply NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for the KJVO notion.

2.) Every one of KJVO's tenets have been proven false. EVERY ONE. Most of them were founded by GUESSWORK.

3.) The AV 1611 itself disposes of several of the KJVO false tenets, such as the Psalm 12:6-7 thingie and the "No ancient LXX" assertion.

4.) The entire set of doctrines and theories was founded by a cult official and spread by DISHONEST authors.

5.) The KJVO myth is entirely MAN-MADE, its history well-known. NOTHING so rife with dishonesty could POSSIBLY have come from GOD!

Finally, let me say that there is ONE LEGITIMATE REASON to be KJVO ...PERSONAL PREFERENCE. If one grew up reading the KJV(or any other one valid version) and that version was most familiar and understandable to that person, there's absolutely nothing wrong with staying with it.

I believe the AV/KJV to be a perfectly-valid and excellent version. But it's not the only game in town. In His providence, God has caused His word to be translated into today's langiages, including today's English. The AV was in the best English of its day, and there's no such thing as "Church English".

The KJVO myth was founded upon error and spread with a great deal of dishonesty added, and with virtually NO PROOF. BEWARE THE LEAVEN OF THE KJVOs.IT'S MADE FROM POISON MUSHROOMS!
 

robycop3

Member
Peter A V
Isn't it interesting that the Disappeared Gnostic,Arian manuscripts get found and printed in these last apostate,Laodicean era?

Your very mention of the "Laodicean era" reveals you're polluted with another heretical false doctrine...the "Church Age" garbage of that great charlatan, William Branham. This proves my contention that false begets false...first KJVO, than "Church Age".

The very proof that the KJV is the inerant words of God is the very fact that they disagree with this 1% Alexandrian corrupted dissapeared manuscripts,that can't even agree any two verses in a row among themselves.Like MM says These two Alexandrian manuscripts [Aleph and B]dissagree with each other some 3,000 times just in the Gospels alone.
Plus they omit whole books of the Bible.Satan is very interested in Bible translation.Very subtle,is his first discription.He would like to be like the Most High.Hmmmmm.


That's no proof. The KJV & its texts vary much more greatly among themselves than does one "family" of mss with another. You have NO PROOF of what's corrupt & what isn't. And MANY mss contain only SOME of the NT books.

Sorry, Sir, but FALSE DOCTRINES AND GUESSWORK just won't cut it with GOD. Better STUDY THE FACTS a little befire you make such incorrect statements again.
 

brandplucked

New member
Tne "science" of textual criticism

Tne "science" of textual criticism

Hi all, I have seen some posts here regarding the so called "science" of textual criticism, and how supposedly today we are fairly certain about what the New Testament texts are. This is just more misinformation. The "science of textual criticism" is a pathetic joke, and I can prove it. The modern Greek texts continue to change every few years in many places. Peter mentioned some 500 changes in the Westcott-Hort texts that have occured in the last 50 years or so, and he is right.

On my website I have several articles dealing with the "Science" of Textual Criticism. If you take the time to read through them and compare bible versions, you will see that they do not agree with each other at all in many readings, and none of the modern versions even agree among themselves.

Here is just one example. I would also like to examine Roby's position that all "valid" versions are just the way God wants them to be, and that "all of them are inerrant and infallible", even though they disagree with each other.

So, Roby, after reading this one example, can you tell us which bible(s) is the true words of God? Remember, the Lord Jesus said His words would not pass away. Either He said "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." or He didn't and these words should not be in The Bible.

There is a big penalty for either adding to or taking away from the words of God. Apparently God Himself has a different view of Scripture than do many Christians today.


Matthew 6:13 "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: FOR THINE IS THE KINGDOM, AND THE POWER, AND THE GLORY, FOR EVER. AMEN."

One of the most notable differences between the Catholic bible versions and the Protestant Reformation Bibles has been the ending of what is commonly referred to as the Lord's Prayer. These last words: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" are found in the vast Majority of all Greek texts, as well as in four copies of the Old Latin (k,f, g, and q), which predates anything we have in Greek. All these words are also found in the ancient Syriac Peshitta, Harkelian, Curetonian, and Palestinian, as well as the Coptic Boharic and Sahidic, the Georgian, Armenian, Slavonian, and Ethiopian ancient versions. In fact, of over 1000 Greek manuscripts that contain this section of Matthew's gospel, these words are found in all but 10 manuscripts. This is a 100 to one ratio in favor of the reading.

For a more in depth study of this passage, which also addresses James White's objections to this verse, see Marty Shue's article at his site. http://www.geocities.com/avdefense1611/matt6-13.html

The modern English versions present a confused picture even among themselves as to the authenticity of these words. Such modern versions as the NIV, RSV, ESV, Darby, CEV, and the 2003 ISV omit these precious words, as do all Catholic versions.

However the NASB, and the 2003 Holman Christian Standard, include the words but place them in brackets, indicating doubt as to their inspiration.

Other modern versions, which are still based primarily on the UBS, Westcott-Hort texts which omit hundreds and hundreds of words from the New Testament, have gone back to including these words without brackets. Among these are the New Life Bible (Lockman foundation 1969), World English Bible, the Hebrew Names Version, and the 1998 Complete Jewish Bible.

The 2002 version called The Message includes the words but paraphrases them to such a degree that they are virtually unrecognizable. It says: "Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil. You're in charge! You can do anything you want! You're ablaze in beauty! Yes. Yes. Yes."

The confusion is seen in the two most recent "evangelical" versions to come out. The 2003 International Standard Version omits all these words, while the 2003 Holman Standard contains them.

Even the footnotes found in the modern versions that omit these words give conflicting evidence.

The RSV omits the words as does the NIV, but the RSV footnotes that the reading is found in "Other authorities, some ancient", whereas the NIV footnote is completely false and presents a distorted view of the evidence. The NIV footnotes tells us: "Some late manuscripts" include the verse. SOME?! Is the ratio of 100 to 1 fairly considered as "SOME"? As for "late manuscripts", they apparently do not want you to know the reading is found in copies of SEVERAL ancient Bible versions that predate the very few manuscripts that omit these words. This is not scholarship but sleight of hand.

The ancient Syriac Peshitta reads: " And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever: Amen.?

These words are also found in the following English Bible versions: Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1599, Wesley 1755, Webster's 1833, Young's, the NKJV 1982, the KJV 21st Century, Third Millenium Bible, and Green's Modern KJV.

The list of foreign language Bibles that include the words "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" is quite impressive. Among them are: the Albanian, Bulgarian, Chinese, Croatian, Danish, Dutch, French Louis Segond, Gaelic, Luther's German, Modern Greek, Gypsy Rhomanese, Hatian Creole, Modern Hebrew, Hungarian, Icelandic, Korean, Latvian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Spanish Reina Valera, Swahili, Turkish, Ukranian, and Vietnamese Bibles.

But in the USA we have such versions that omit these words as the NIV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, ISV, and the New Living Translation.

Some Bible critics I have run into try to tell us that the Doxology found in Matthew 6:13 should be omitted because it is not found in a similar prayer recorded in Luke 11:1-4. These critics fail to notice the obvious. The context of Luke chapter 11is very different from the context of Matthew chapter 6. In Matthew the Lord is giving the sermon on the mount to a great multitude. In Luke it is the disciples who come to our Lord at a different time and request that He teach them how to pray.

There are also some very serious textual changes found in the prayer pattern found in Luke 11:2-4. In the King James Holy Bible we read: "And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, OUR Father, WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE, AS IN HEAVEN, SO IN EARTH. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL."

All the capital lettered words have been omitted in such versions as the NIV, RSV, NASB, ESV. The Lord Jesus Christ either said all these words and they are inspired Scripture, or they are not. Not all bible versions say or teach the same things.

Will Kinney
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
brandplucked said:
...All the capital lettered words have been omitted in such versions as the NIV, RSV, NASB, ESV. The Lord Jesus Christ either said all these words and they are inspired Scripture, or they are not. Not all bible versions say or teach the same things.
Will,

Do you know the reason why the words you capitalized are not found in some translations but are found in others? :think:
 

robycop3

Member
Brandplucked: Hi saints and sinners, Roby got a tad upset when I asked why he thought the Bible believers (those who really believe The Bible IS the inerrant and inspired words of God, but Roby refers to us as KJV Onlies) are wreaking havoc on the church. I asked if is was because we uphold one Bible as being the true words of God and reject the imposters.

Actually, I wasn't upset at all...I simply thought how silly you KJVOs are, defending a proven-false doctrine.

Roby then told us we are wrong for calling into doubt the reliability of such versions as the NIV, NASB, NKJV, ESV etc.

And I'll STILL tell you. You haven't proven a thing against them, except "they aint the KJV".

Let me point out that for years now it has been the promoters of the new versions that have severely criticized the King James Bible as being inaccurate and based on the wrong texts.

The goofs have been PROVEN, thile the KJVOs'only defense has been, "Say it aint so, Joe."

It is the modern version promoters themselves who do not believe ANY BIBLE on this earth is now the inerrant, complete, and infallible word of God.

TRUTHFULLY, they don't believe God is limited to just one version.

I have read many anti KJB books and sites. People like James White, Rick Norris, Doug Kutilek, Daniel Wallace, and Roby always say something like "We are not against or attacking the KJV", and yet all of their book and articles have page after page of examples of what they think are errors and mistranslations. They are in effect telling us that the King James Bible is NOT the inerrant word of God.

While the DEFENSE against those goofs is EXCUSES AND GUESSWORK.

So, what do they replace it with? Generally with a list of several preferred and "reliable translations", none of which any of them really believes is the Final Authority of the Inerrant words of God. Instead, they give us their own opinions and each of these men disagrees with the others in many points and preferences.

Just as the KJV and its sources disagree among themselves.

"In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

The attacks against the King James Bible.

On page 103 of his book, Mr. Norris asks the question: "Is their evidence for their KJV-only view so weak that they have to tear down all other translations in order to build up the KJV?"

Later in his book Mr. Norris himself dedicates three whole chapters consisting of 60 pages to "tearing down" the King James Bible by alleging a whole series of mistranslations, errors, and assorted blunders as being "an unhappy translation", "this is not correct", "the incorrect rendering" and "a mere oversight of our KJV translators".

I think one of the main reasons many of us who are King James Bible defenders are so fervent about this whole Bible version issue is because the attack first began by those who placed their individual learning, scholarship, and opinions as the final authority of what God REALLY said, and tried to rob us of our faith in an inspired Bible.


But did God REALLY say everything according to the KJV? Reality proves DIFFERENTLY. As for poor translations, here's a very easy, undeniable one..."GOD FORBID. Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek translates into this. It's a BRITISH expression, and the AV men were BRITISH. Go figure...

This process began years ago in various commentaries where the author would write "the Authorized Version has an unfortunate rendering here", or "It really says...", or "the Greek really means...". They were in effect distancing us from the sure words of God and making themselves a type of intermediary between us and hearing God's voice directly through His written word. We just got tired of it and decided to believe what The Book says about itself.

But you haven't been able to prove JUST ONE of those commentaries wrong...and you simply WON'T ADMIT the poor translations are there.

Various new bible versions were not even subtle about this attack on our beloved Bible. When the Revised Standard Version came out in 1952 it contained these remarks in the Preface.

"The King James Version has GRAVE DEFECTS. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that THESE DEFECTS ARE SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS as to call for revision of the English translation."


BUT...Has any KJVO been able to prove differently?

Ronald F. Youngblood, one of the NIV translators has this to say regarding the underlying Greek texts of the King James Bible. "It is now almost universally recognized that the Textus Receptus (TR) contains so many significant departures from the original manuscripts of the various New Testament books that it cannot be relied on as a basis for translation into other languages."

"It is simply to point out that in most cases the readings found in older manuscripts, particularly the Greek uncials Vaticanus and Sinaiticus of the fourth century A.D., are to be preferred to those found in later manuscripts, such as those that reflect the TR."
The NIV: The Making of a Contemporary Translation, Kenneth L. Barker (Editor), pp. 111-112 .

The KJVO poster-boy, Dean John Burgon, said the same thing about the TR, saying it needed a thorough revision.

Edwin H. Palmer, the executive secretary for the committee on Bible translation for the NIV, wrote the following. "The KJV is not, however, the best translation to use today. This is so for two reasons: (1) it adds to the word of God and (2) it has now obscure and misleading renderings of God's Word. They did their best, but all they had to work with was a handful of copies of the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament books. In a few sections they had no Greek manuscript at all! Instead, they had to rely on the Latin Vulgate's rendering of what they thought must have originally been in the Greek!

Can you prove him wrong?

"Through the providence of God, many more Greek manuscripts had been preserved and were subsequently discovered - in fact, more than five thousand of them. Some of the Greek manuscripts date back to the four hundreds and three hundreds - even to about A.D. 200. These ancient manuscripts were more reliable and more accurate, not being corrupted by errors made during countless times of copying, such as occurred with the late manuscripts used by the KJV." The NIV: The Making of a Contemporary Translation, Kenneth L. Barker (Editor), pp. 142-143.

Again...Can you prove him wrong?

Mr. Palmer, of the NIV committee, closed with these words: "Do not give them a loaf of bread, covered with an inedible, impenetrable crust, fossilized by three and a half centuries. Give them the Word of God as fresh and warm and clear as the Holy Spirit gave it to the authors of the Bible ... For any preacher or theologian who loves God's Word to allow that Word to go on being misunderstood because of the veneration of an archaic, not-understood version of four centuries ago is inexcusable, and almost unconscionable." (The NIV: The Making of a Contemporary Translation, Kenneth L. Barker (Editor), p. 156.)

He touched on the main objection Christians have to the KJV...archaic language.



The King James Bible believer is not "the bad guy" for defending the existence of an inerrant Bible.

But when his defense is based upon a pack of lies from a set of false doctrines, he IS.


It is so ironic that today in Christianity, the person who believes in an inerrant Bible is called an idolator, a heretic, or "of the devil", whereas those who do not believe any Bible in any language is the inerrant, infallible words of God are considered "renowned scholars" and pillars of the faith.

One of your problems is your definition of "inerrant". You claim the KJV has no technical errors despite having them pointed out and PROVEN WRONG to you. You try to gloss over the fact that the Scriptures simply WILL NOT TRANSLATE word-for-word from Hebrew, Greek, & Aramaic into English. EVERY English version has words added to clarify the translation into English the average reader can understand. A Greek friend of mine told me he has great difficulty translating English into Greek because English has many more words, & it's difficult to convey every written English thought into written Greek. (He says SPOKEN Greek is different because he can use voice inflection, body language, etc. to convey the meaning better.) And since Greek and Hebrew have fewer words, they have many more words with multiple meanings. Thus, when one version, or book within a version, refers to the charcuwth(sic) gate, it may call it the Potsherd(shard of pottery) Gate, the Dung Gate, or the Eastern Gate. All would be correct, as it all refers to the same gate in the wall of Jerusalem. However, where the KJV(or any other version reads, God forbid for either "chaliylah", Hebrew for "far be it", or "me ginomai"(Greek for "May it not happen", it's WRONG. "God forbid" is a BRITISH expression, and was NOT the words of the writers of the mss being translated. Using a British term to interpred a Greek or Hebrew interjection is hardly accurate. You just won't accept that the KJV does most of the VERY SAME THINGS you accuse other versions of doing. That's part of the great KJVO DOUBLE STANDARD.
 

robycop3

Member
Agree to disagree

Agree to disagree

Martian Manhuntr...

Didja ever stop a minute and think WHY Sin. & Vat. don't agree? THRY'RE DIFFERENT MSS, that's why! They were each written by different scribes! Simple as A-B-C.

The four "Gospels" differ from each other , in the same "set" of mss, more than Sin & Vat differ between themselves.

Different works by different writers...Simple, eh?
 

robycop3

Member
Brandplucked: Hi jth, as you probably know, I have written an article about the Old Latin version and the King James readings. Here is the site

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/OldLatin.html


Seems as if JTH torpedoed your garbage scow quite effectively.

[/i]It seems you Christians who do not believe that The Bible IS now the inerrant word of God demand something from us that you yourselves cannot provide. [/i]

WE don't HAVE to; the ball is in YOUR court. As the "Plaintiff" in this case, the KJVOs have the burden of proof. and it's proven to be quite a burden so far, as your proof up to this point has been ZERO. YOU(KJVOs in general) have stated that the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible translation there is; NOW YA GOTTA PROVE THAT STATEMENT or be considered LIARS.


You cannot trace back through history all the various readings, nor can you prove that any of them are genuine, so why do you demand that we do so?

Because you insist YOUR chosen version is the only CORRECT one, but you've backed that up with NOTHING. Sorry, but GOD'S WORD is too serious a thing for us to accept an unfounded doctrine about it.

Undoubtedly thousands of manuscripts and Bibles have turned to dust or been destroyed in the last 2000 years. Neither side of this issue is able to prove beyond all doubt that any verse of Scripture is the true reading. I accept by faith that the Bible (KJB) is true and that God has preserved His words as He promised.

Faith in WHAT?

BIBLICAL faith is believing in the UNSEEN by that which IS seen. Faith without foundation is BLIND faith, useless to God or man. YOUR faith that the KJV is the only "official" English version of God's word is based upon a VACUUM. You KJVOs haven't provided ONE QUARK of evidence to JUSTIFY such faith. Seems the source of your faith in the KJVO myth is the myth itself. This is a self-serving assumption, Your faith comes from telling yourselves, "KJVO IS TRUE" over & over till ya actually BELIEVED it.


Of the Old Latin bibles we have some knowledge of their readings, and ALL of the most hightly disputed readings in the King James Bible have been found in the relatively few Old Latin manuscripts that have survived. The mss. we have today come from a Bible translation that was done long before anything we have in the remaining Greek copies.

I believe more than one ms scholar has proven differently.

Those who tell us the KJB readings are "late" have no idea what they are talking about.

TRUTHFULLY, I believe they have some ideas you don't wanna hear.

Can we prove that every single reading found in the KJB is genuine and trace them all to a single manuscript? No. Nor can you do so with any other bible version on this earth. So, why is it you demand something from us that you yourselves cannot provide?

Because of your insistence that the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible version. If ya can't prove it, it aint right, because the subject is SCRIPTURE, and ANY theory about Scripture MUST BE SUPPORTED by Scripture...there's no higher written authority, and no written theory of man is ABOVE Scripture. The REALITY is that Scripture molds all valid theories about itself...and KJVO does NOT meet that standard. Therefore it's false, and a MYTH.

My question to you is this: Do you personally believe there is any Bible or any manuscript in any language on this earth today that is the inerrant, complete, infallible words of God? If so, what is it called? Now, if you list several conflicting and contradictory versions as all being the inerrant word of God, then I will know that you too have gone over the precipice of reason and have launced out into the abyss of absurdity like Roby has done.

I have named some of the English Bibles earlier, and if I could read the mss, I'd have no need for a translation. You continue to insist that no more than ONE VERSION can be the ONLY inerrant version...BUT YOU FAIL TO TELL US WHICH EDITION OF THE KJV IS THE "OFFICIAL" ONE! And they ARE different! If there's one punctuation marks' difference between two editions, they're DIFFERENT. Howdya deal with THEM apples?

And what about the four different Gospels? They're four differing narrations of the VERY SAME EVENTS, but they differ among themselves GREATLY! I've already explained why I believe ALL of them, and unlike the KJVO, I apply those same criteria to the differences between versions. THE KJVO DOESN'T DO THIS ! ! ! He hollers "Apples & oranges!" Actually, the OPPOSITE is true! There should be far fewer differences WITHIN one version made from ONE set of mss than there should be between sets of mss or different versions, but the differences between the Gospels are far greater than those between versions or mss. I assume YOU believe all four Gospels same as I do, so your failure to apply your reasons for that belief to the differences in versions is nothing more than part of the infamous GREAT KJVO DOUBLE STANDARD! You've proven that your KJVO myth is more inportant to you than is the TRUTH.
 

Johnthebaptist

New member
Brandplucked

The "originals" have obviously passed away. So, the question remains, Where are the true words of the Lord Jesus Christ today? I have a Bible witnessed to by the Providential hand of God in history and the internal evidence, that I can point anybody to and say with all confidence "This is the true, inerrant and inspired words of God - the King James Holy Bible."

I have nothing against the KJV, but you are living in a dream world if you thank it is inerrant. You still do not understand the transmission of the Scriptures. You still do not comprehend the importance of the Autographs. You do not understand that the reason we have such a high degree of accuracy in the copies of the manuscripts we have is because of the purity of the originals. God has revealed more knowledge of the Biblical languages by enabling us to find the manuscripts they were in Egypt. Yet you are blind to this truth. We have a better understanding of the Greek tenses and grammar than we did before the papyri finds. We have a better understanding of the Greek tenses and grammar than the KJV translators did. They translated many participles according more to the Latin.

As Adolf Deissmann came to see that the language of the New Testament was not a special Bible language, but a language common (koine) to the people. The Lord in his providence has revealted more earlier manuscripts for us to have a more accurate understanding of His Word.

Therer is no factual basis whatsoever for the inerrance of the KJV.

God Bless
John
 

robycop3

Member
Brandplucked, I have clipped your message for brevity since it's all before us on YOUR post, and I'm gonna address the specific parts which prove the rest of it WRONG.


Here is just one example. I would also like to examine Roby's position that all "valid" versions are just the way God wants them to be, and that "all of them are inerrant and infallible", even though they disagree with each other.

So, Roby, after reading this one example, can you tell us which bible(s) is the true words of God? Remember, the Lord Jesus said His words would not pass away. Either He said "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." or He didn't and these words should not be in The Bible.

There is a big penalty for either adding to or taking away from the words of God. Apparently God Himself has a different view of Scripture than do many Christians today.


There's also a big penalty for LYING,also. And making up fairy tales about God's word aint exactly TRUTHFUL.


Matthew 6:13 "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: FOR THINE IS THE KINGDOM, AND THE POWER, AND THE GLORY, FOR EVER. AMEN."

One of the most notable differences between the Catholic bible versions and the Protestant Reformation Bibles has been the ending of what is commonly referred to as the Lord's Prayer. These last words: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" are found in the vast Majority of all Greek texts, as well as in four copies of the Old Latin (k,f, g, and q), which predates anything we have in Greek. All these words are also found in the ancient Syriac Peshitta, Harkelian, Curetonian, and Palestinian, as well as the Coptic Boharic and Sahidic, the Georgian, Armenian, Slavonian, and Ethiopian ancient versions. In fact, of over 1000 Greek manuscripts that contain this section of Matthew's gospel, these words are found in all but 10 manuscripts. This is a 100 to one ratio in favor of the reading.

For a more in depth study of this passage, which also addresses James White's objections to this verse, see Marty Shue's article at his site. http://www.geocities.com/avdefense1611/matt6-13.html

The modern English versions present a confused picture even among themselves as to the authenticity of these words. Such modern versions as the NIV, RSV, ESV, Darby, CEV, and the 2003 ISV omit these precious words, as do all Catholic versions.

However the NASB, and the 2003 Holman Christian Standard, include the words but place them in brackets, indicating doubt as to their inspiration.

Other modern versions, which are still based primarily on the UBS, Westcott-Hort texts which omit hundreds and hundreds of words from the New Testament, have gone back to including these words without brackets. Among these are the New Life Bible (Lockman foundation 1969), World English Bible, the Hebrew Names Version, and the 1998 Complete Jewish Bible.

The 2002 version called The Message includes the words but paraphrases them to such a degree that they are virtually unrecognizable. It says: "Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil. You're in charge! You can do anything you want! You're ablaze in beauty! Yes. Yes. Yes."


I don't recognize "The Message" as a valid version...it doesn't follow its sources too well.

The confusion is seen in the two most recent "evangelical" versions to come out. The 2003 International Standard Version omits all these words, while the 2003 Holman Standard contains them.

Even the footnotes found in the modern versions that omit these words give conflicting evidence.

The RSV omits the words as does the NIV, but the RSV footnotes that the reading is found in "Other authorities, some ancient", whereas the NIV footnote is completely false and presents a distorted view of the evidence. The NIV footnotes tells us: "Some late manuscripts" include the verse. SOME?! Is the ratio of 100 to 1 fairly considered as "SOME"? As for "late manuscripts", they apparently do not want you to know the reading is found in copies of SEVERAL ancient Bible versions that predate the very few manuscripts that omit these words. This is not scholarship but sleight of hand.

The ancient Syriac Peshitta reads: " And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever: Amen.?

These words are also found in the following English Bible versions: Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1599, Wesley 1755, Webster's 1833, Young's, the NKJV 1982, the KJV 21st Century, Third Millenium Bible, and Green's Modern KJV.

The list of foreign language Bibles that include the words "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" is quite impressive. Among them are: the Albanian, Bulgarian, Chinese, Croatian, Danish, Dutch, French Louis Segond, Gaelic, Luther's German, Modern Greek, Gypsy Rhomanese, Hatian Creole, Modern Hebrew, Hungarian, Icelandic, Korean, Latvian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Spanish Reina Valera, Swahili, Turkish, Ukranian, and Vietnamese Bibles.

But in the USA we have such versions that omit these words as the NIV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, ISV, and the New Living Translation.


Know why? Those words aren't found in their sources. Easy solution.

Some Bible critics I have run into try to tell us that the Doxology found in Matthew 6:13 should be omitted because it is not found in a similar prayer recorded in Luke 11:1-4. These critics fail to notice the obvious. The context of Luke chapter 11is very different from the context of Matthew chapter 6. In Matthew the Lord is giving the sermon on the mount to a great multitude. In Luke it is the disciples who come to our Lord at a different time and request that He teach them how to pray.

If you'd bothered to read ALL of Luke 11, youda seen Jesus was talking to others besides His disciples. He cast a demon outta one person, and I doubt that His disciples had any demons at that point. (Judas excepted) Different Gospels, different scribes.

There are also some very serious textual changes found in the prayer pattern found in Luke 11:2-4. In the King James Holy Bible we read: "And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, OUR Father, WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE, AS IN HEAVEN, SO IN EARTH. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL."

All the capital lettered words have been omitted in such versions as the NIV, RSV, NASB, ESV. The Lord Jesus Christ either said all these words and they are inspired Scripture, or they are not. Not all bible versions say or teach the same things.


Well, He either said the Doxology and it's inspired Scripture, or He didn't say it. These differences are found WITHIN THE SAME VERSION, which is MUCH more telling than are the differences between versions.

Once again, I stand behind my choice of several Bible versions because that's REALITY, while the KJVO position is based upon guesswork, hearsay, wishful thinking, & imagination, "shored up" by the GREAT KJVO DOUBLE STANDARD, and nothing more.
 

Johnthebaptist

New member
brandplucked

Undoubtedly thousands of manuscripts and Bibles have turned to dust or been destroyed in the last 2000 years. Neither side of this issue is able to prove beyond all doubt that any verse of Scripture is the true reading. I accept by faith that the Bible (KJB) is true and that God has preserved His words as He promised.

Again you show your ignorance of textual criticism. We can through sifting the data in the manuscripts God has givien us come to know almost 98 percent what the original reading was. I know you do not agree.

God Bless
John
 

Peter A V

New member
Roby the Deceiver

Roby the Deceiver

robycop3 said:
Rather than try to answer every individual post at this time, I believe it's time to examine the myth itself, and some of its points...and to show them wrong. This is in the light of someone saying Pastor Enyart has no Bible nor final authority because he doesn't subscribe to the KJVO myth.

Nice try Roby,you lied again,as usual,just like on the other sites.All you like is playing opinionated games,and this is wrong.
To start with,you start by saying KJVO is a Myth.Education has some dementia in your display.
This falsely labeled myth was the norm by all the church,[excluding the Catholics,of course]In fact when you look at all of the confessions of faith,it paints the exact opposite of what you lie about on a regular basis.They all believed in the Holy Bible.Take a look at the posts and articles that abound,proving this very point.

You just want to LABEL us a cult,when what is happening now,to the church at large is the most cultic thing around.Imagine,throwing out 99% of the manuscript evidence,and then useing the corupted Alexandrian manuscripts pumped out by heretics and necromancers.Nice company.
All you are doing is a smear campaine,because you can't prove you LXX [72] is the infalible words of God with out error.

The only person that promotes This supposed fake start by a 7th day adventist,is the likes of you.Give me a break.

Go ahead and call us some sect,that is ok.That is the Biblical term for a true Bible believer by the rest.

My Bible tells me that there will be a great falling away.
My Bible tells me,that when the LORD returns,shall he find faith on the earth?
My Bible tells me that knowledge shall increase.
My Bible tells me that they are ever learning,and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
My Bible saus that Because they loved not the truth,God shall send them strong delusion,that they might believe a lie.
My Bible tells me that the luke warm church is good for nothing.
This matches the rest of the Bible,so don't be telling me that I am off base when all you do is smear.Maybe you like to study Branham,But I study the Holy Bible.

After handling the real thing,one can spot the fakes real fast.

Why would you side with the fake wannabees,Heretics and the Liberals?Are you one of them?Seems so,by your militant stand.
 

Peter A V

New member
Idolatry?

Idolatry?

logos_x said:
Peter A V,
You, and others like you, have made a book into an idol....
Your idolatry, like all works of the Devil, will be destroyed.

That is a pretty lame one logos.It seems you name yourself after the word too.
What's up with that?

I think we both agree that the words of God are the final authority in all matters of faith and practice,but the "WORD" must be the "WORD",not fakes,full of errors on every page.
Let us be honest here,and realize that there is no other Bible that is error free,than the A.V.1611.I simply believe his words and uphold them.I do not Idolize them.Jeremiah loved them more than his necessary food.So do I.The men of God stood by the words of God,and would never compromize.Today,all the modern versions have,and in a big way.

Why is it that you haye God's words so much.Do you know the LORD Jesus as your own personal Saviour?Or are you just a Deist?Are you a Bible believer,or a Bible critic?
So far,you have showed yourself to be a critic,and a false one at that.

You need to read and BELIEVE your Bible,if you have one.It alone will give you all you need for your dailly food.
 

Peter A V

New member
Huldrych's Bible

Huldrych's Bible

Huldrych said:
Be careful, Pete. I know you Onlyists are very quick to jump to conclusions without really examining matters first. Take for example your "paganized Scriptures" remark, and your accusation that I idolize them. Do you know which Scriptures I read, and do you really know what I think about Alexandrian-based Bibles?

I don't think so. But as a hint, I will tell you that not everyone who is anti-Onlyism is pro-Alexandrian.

The Bibles I prefer are based on one form or another of the Traditional Text.

My point is, that so far, there is no historical evidence that supports the Onlyist angle on Biblical preservation; that is to say, that the KJV, and KJV only, is the perfect manifestation of God's promise to preserve His word.
................
Ok,instead of Alexandrianite,maybe you are a scholarship onlyist,the lingo seems to fit.
Not much diference between the two,Both have Multiple authorities.No pure Bible.
I can tell you mine,what's yours?
I can show you many many errors in yours,even if you claim them to follow some sort of
Traditional Text.

It isn't about what you prefer,anyway.We must go by the words of God and let that be the judge.Agreed,that anything that follows the Traditional text is miles beyond the Alexandrians.Nevertheless,ther various versions do disagree in some spots.

Only the 1611 is the one that fits all of the Biblical standards,that God has set in his word.
The others,allthough good,are short of the mark of the KJV.It is even better.

You are right ,that I did jump the gun,and made it look like I made an assumption.But I post for posterity,and every person reading,so I may appear to look as if I had missrepresented you.And for that,I am truly sorry.Even my new definition may be off,but I think it fits for now,until I learn more of you,and your passion for the words of God.

This also goes for all of you out there.I do apologize,if I have missrepresented you,but this is not my intention.I am simply trying to get to know you folks,and your passions as well.Even if we don't see eye to eye,we are sharpening each other.Even the file that sharpens the axe,in turn is also being smoothed out.
 

Huldrych

New member
brandplucked said:
Hi Jth, thanks for your thoughts. Regarding the "no big deal" of one example Kutilek gave in his cherry picking examples, there were only 10 Old Latin mss. listed that omitted one word, "Jesus" in one verse.
Attempting to put spin on the fact that all ten extant mss that contained that verse omitted the word.

My point was that there undoubtedly were hundreds of Old Latin mss. that once existed, and we simply do not know what they said or didn't say. Kutilek was very definitely cherry picking his examples, and they were not "at random" as he stated. He has an agenda, that is, to prove there is no such thing as an inerrant Bible in any language.
And you don't have an agenda by merely dismissing the evidence at hand? I've seen you take great pains trying to prove the superiority of your pet version over others, and some of the readings in question involved just one word. It's a pity you don't put the KJV under the same scrutiny, to see if it can stand up.

Unfortunately, I also know from past conversations with you that you do not believe in the existence of a perfect and inerrant Bible either. You are a far more reasonable man to deal with than some few others we frequently run into, but your final conclusion is that there is no perfectly preserved words of God in any language or text.
As reasonable as I am (thank you), I am open to examining evidence contrary to the "final conclusion" you say I have made. But thus far, neither you nor anyone else has bothered presenting anything definitive proving the "perfectly preserved words of God in any language or text". The most, thus far, an "educated guess."

The Lord Jesus Christ said (and it is the only statement of His that is recorded in all three synoptic gospels) "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away." This stament is either true or He lied.

Or, you are misappropriating them for the sake of an agenda. From Scripture we know this can be done.

The "originals" have obviously passed away. So, the question remains, Where are the true words of the Lord Jesus Christ today? I have a Bible witnessed to by the Providential hand of God in history and the internal evidence, that I can point anybody to and say with all confidence "This is the true, inerrant and inspired words of God - the King James Holy Bible."
"Witnessed to by the Providential hand of God in history." Then certainly this history stretches back before 1611, and His blessings upon the KJV's precursor would have been just as evident. When you find that evidence, then shall your confidence on the matter be justified.

You, my friend, do not have such a book, do you?
I have a book whose history is longer, and whose influence has extended beyond its own language--affecting even your own KJV. You should also know from our conversations which Bible it is.

You do not need to back up all your preferred readings from history because you do not believe in the existence of an inerrant Bible.
With what you've given me of your "evidence," I don't have enough to believe in the existence of an inerrant or perfectly preserved Bible. Following the leads you have given from your "educated guesses," there is nothing to support it.

I do not have to back up every single reading found in the KJB from the historical evidence from my point of view. Mainly because most of the manuscript evidence no longer exists,
Which still is no excuse for not looking into the evidence that still remains.

and I believe the Bible I DO have. It tells me that God has promised in various specific Scriptures that He would preserve His words in a Book here on this earth.
And, if your interpretation of those promises holds true, in the 1500 years between the last book's inspiration and the epiphany of the KJV, there should be something to support that version's inerrancy and perfect preservation.

I'm sorry you do not yet believe there is an inerrant Bible on this earth. I sincerely hope God will reveal to you that there is one, and it is now called the King James Holy Bible.
And I sincerely hope the evidence will be manifest so you can prove what the inerrant Bible was THEN, before 1611, and thereby justify your theories, and help put an end to much of this bickering. Or otherwise give you the courage to trust in God's sovereignty with the other translations He has allowed, even blessed, for teaching, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness (which will also end a lot of this nonsensical back-and-forth).

Until then, Luther and its contemporaries will continue to do well in their role in my walk with the Lord.

Forsaking myself upon Him,
jth
 

logos_x

New member
Peter A V said:
That is a pretty lame one logos.It seems you name yourself after the word too.
What's up with that?

I think we both agree that the words of God are the final authority in all matters of faith and practice,but the "WORD" must be the "WORD",not fakes,full of errors on every page.
Let us be honest here,and realize that there is no other Bible that is error free,than the A.V.1611.I simply believe his words and uphold them.I do not Idolize them.Jeremiah loved them more than his necessary food.So do I.The men of God stood by the words of God,and would never compromize.Today,all the modern versions have,and in a big way.

The AV 1611 is far from error free, Peter.

Jeremiah did not read the AV 1611...He read the original Hebrew text of the old testament

Why is it that you haye God's words so much.Do you know the LORD Jesus as your own personal Saviour?Or are you just a Deist?Are you a Bible believer,or a Bible critic?
So far,you have showed yourself to be a critic,and a false one at that.

You need to read and BELIEVE your Bible,if you have one.It alone will give you all you need for your dailly food.

The Bible is fine. The KJV is OK, but far from the reliable original Bible in the original languages.
I don't hate God's word. What I hate is when God's Word is mis-represented.
And you mis-represent it.
 

Peter A V

New member
Disreguard the evidence?

Disreguard the evidence?

Huldrych said:
Someone came up with the notion that the KJV is perfectly preserved within the last 100 years, based upon the evidence he had on hand. And now you are saying we should disregard this evidence altogether?

Oh, I get it now :doh: the evidence really doesn't support Onlyism, so let's just ignore it.
.....................
I am amazed at your fake LIES about the KJV positions.You know very well that I don't disreguard evidence.You are just playing word games is all.With 99% evidence,the KJV is the very words of God.For you to LIE about that and say that I said something ELSE is impropper,and a false LIE.You are the one that disreguards the facts,and it is you that is the one that believes your lies about me.
 

Peter A V

New member
Logos thinks the Bible has errors?

Logos thinks the Bible has errors?

logos_x said:
The AV 1611 is far from error free, Peter.
Jeremiah did not read the AV 1611...He read the original Hebrew text of the old testament
The Bible is fine. The KJV is OK, but far from the reliable original Bible in the original languages.
I don't hate God's word. What I hate is when God's Word is mis-represented.
And you mis-represent it.
.............................................
Well,if it is FAR from error free,you sure proved it by your masive list of mistakes.Now let's see there was....zip,notta,just an empty accusation, unproven to boot.
As far as Jeremiah reading the original,what a load of crock.The only books that might have been "originals" are those of his contemporaries,All the rest would be coppies.
David never had any "originals"other than his own and maybe his son.
When you say or insinuate that the KJV is only OK,but FAR from the reliable original Bible In the original languages,you don't know how many errors you have perpetuated.

To start with,there was no original Bible,until several years AFTER John.With the KJV agreeing with 99% of the manuscript evidence you dis it off as nothing more than OK?
Now that is deplorable thinking.You gave no info for proof again as usual.
I have misrepresented nothing.
God says he has a error free Bible.Name it.
 

Huldrych

New member
Thank you for the apology

Thank you for the apology

You started out in a huff, then smoothed out, even apologizing. I think that showed Christ.

Peter A V said:
I can tell you mine,what's yours?
I can show you many many errors in yours,even if you claim them to follow some sort of
Traditional Text.

Whenever I read the Bible for myself or during a service, or getting ready to preach or share myself, I usually use the Luther Bible. I'll give you some background on how I came to use that version.

I love the German language (been speaking it for 20 years, got two degrees in it, and I get to teach it in autumn and speak with the German tourists that come through this area in the summer), and on my first trip to Europe in 1991, one of my priorities was finding a German Bible. I started out not wanting a translation associated with any man's name (thinking it glorified the man rather than God), so when the clerk at Herder's in Freiburg offered me a Luther version, I turned it down. He must have thought I was Catholic, so instead he offered me a copy of the "Vollständige deutsche Ausgabe," which I later learned was based on the Catholic Jerusalem Bible. Didn't matter at the time. God had gotten hold of my life after 21 years of going my own way, and I was reading whatever Bible I had at the time (RSV in English, a graduation gift from the Methodist Church), 30 chapters a day, 15 in English and following up with the same 15 in German.

The vdA was clunky, but I got a real appreciation for how German expressed the Word of God (e.g., man and God always address each other with the familiar "du" instead of the more formal "Sie," underlying the truth that God desires intimacy with His people).

In 1993, a friend of mine was finishing up his Ph.D in English. He also took a lot of German (deliberately slaughtering the language for my amusement), so I decided to give him a Luther Bible as a graduation gift and something to remember me by. Curious about the version myself, I also bought a copy, and started reading it.

I was amazed at how easy it was to understand. The translation was both clear and rich in expressing the Word of God (and if you don't know more than one language, it's hard to impart an appreciation for how another language expresses the same truths). I never went back to the vdA, and have been using Luther revisions as my primary Bible every since. That one I bought in '93--a 1961 revision--gave way to a Luther 1984 pocket Bible that I carried with me and used wherever I went until it wore out five years later.

Another friend of mine who is a missionary in Colombia, and appreciates languages as much as I am, came to my church in Florida, telling us how impressed he was with the Scriptures of the Spanish Reformation he had come across and been working with a decade before, and the clarity and richness of that Bible, which he ascribed to the "fires of the Reformation" that were burning when it was written. If you come across the Sagradas Escrituras, version Antigua online, that was made possible by his efforts to distribute it.

That got me thinking about turning to older German versions, and so I bought a facsimile of Luther's 1545 Bible, along with a more portable 1912 (which I later found to line up with the 1545 almost word for word). The older language, spelling, and orthography were a challenge at first, but the rewards gleaned from it were well worth the effort.

For example, "glorify" in my 1984 Luther is "verherrlichen," which literally means something on the order of making something pertain to the Lord. It's a rather clunky word, but it's what has fallen into more regular usage in modern German. But the 1545 & 1912 both used "verklären," which was Luther's original word, and literally means to make something clear. And when you glorify the Lord, as you did by bringing your reactions under submission (something I don't see too often in the heated debate environment of "Which Bible"-type issues), you are making His nature clear to others.

This post has gotten long enough (hopefully it's given you some insight about me), so I'll start closing it by briefly saying how I came across the Zürcher Bibel after learning about the Scriptures of the Swiss Reformation from a trip to Zürich, bought a facsimile of the Zürcher 1531, and appreciate their approach to expressing the Word of God.

Additionally, I managed to get hold of the text of a pre-Lutheran NT, the Codex Teplensis of 1385. The printed form I have it in makes it awkward to carry around, and the translation itself makes some radical departures from traditional readings, so I keep it around mostly for research purposes.

I'm also learning Norwegian (and with it, Danish and Swedish), and part of the approach I'm taking to learning those languages on my own is to read the Bible in those languages (reading it in German kept me from losing it after a long time of relative neglect). Right now, I'm reading from the 1978 Norske Bibelen for purposes of learning modern usage, but I prefer the 1930 I had on my Palm (and on my computer). I would love to get hold of an older Norwegian Bible when I get better with the language, and a facsimile of the Christian III Bible (Scriptures of the Danish Reformation) would be a dream to own. I'm waiting for word back from the Danske Bibelselskabet to see if such a thing exists.

As far as English versions go, I don't really read from English Bibles much anymore. When I am preparing something to share, I'll either use the KJV or the Jubilee Bible 2000 (which my missionary friend put together) to read from, but I also have a liking for the Geneva and Tyndale.

As far as my stance on the Bible version debate is concerned, I prefer Bibles based on the traditional text, especially from the Reformation. I personally consider them the most reliable because of the conditions under which they were translated (I think the men of that time knew they were risking their lives, and did their best to make their translations worthwhile). Newer translations are OK, and I have seen God move powerfully on congregations that use them, but I share some concerns with traditionalists over modern philosophies possibly affecting the approach to translation. But until I can clearly connect error with a Bible version, I won't go to great lengths to divert a brother from what he's using.

Onlyism, however, I find to be (if I may be blunt) misguided arrogance. It makes too many claims it cannot support, doesn't take into account much of history, the factors that go into transmitting the Bible from one language to another, or how the Word of God has already appeared in other languages and cultures. All this, plus the paranoid, fearful approach (manifested often as reactive anger) to presenting their case has nearly turned me off to the KJV on more than one occasion.

And now this post has gotten too long. I'm sorry to end this on the note of that last paragraph, and I hope it doesn't stir up the strife that Peter AV did so well to extinguish. But I've said my piece about my love for the Bible, and my concerns over versions issues, so I'll stop here and let the next person write.

Thanks again for defusing the situation Peter. You have my respect for that.

jth
 

Huldrych

New member
Peter A V said:
I am amazed at your fake LIES about the KJV positions.You know very well that I don't disreguard evidence.You are just playing word games is all.With 99% evidence,the KJV is the very words of God.For you to LIE about that and say that I said something ELSE is impropper,and a false LIE.You are the one that disreguards the facts,and it is you that is the one that believes your lies about me.

OK, how you respond to my last post will determine how I respond to this one.

jth
 

logos_x

New member
Peter A V said:
.............................................
Well,if it is FAR from error free,you sure proved it by your masive list of mistakes.Now let's see there was....zip,notta,just an empty accusation, unproven to boot.
As far as Jeremiah reading the original,what a load of crock.The only books that might have been "originals" are those of his contemporaries,All the rest would be coppies.
David never had any "originals"other than his own and maybe his son.
When you say or insinuate that the KJV is only OK,but FAR from the reliable original Bible In the original languages,you don't know how many errors you have perpetuated.

To start with,there was no original Bible,until several years AFTER John.With the KJV agreeing with 99% of the manuscript evidence you dis it off as nothing more than OK?
Now that is deplorable thinking.You gave no info for proof again as usual.
I have misrepresented nothing.
God says he has a error free Bible.Name it.

The Hebrew Tanakh
There is no English Bible that is error free.

The Word of God is a Person. The Book is to lead you to Him, through Him, into Him.
You don't seem to get it.
 
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