Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[steko]

Okay steko,...looks like you wanna play

Nah.

YHWH is a name, a concept, a person, a sentient being, a 'god', or The all-supreme 'God' or 'no-thing'. Depends on who you ask eh?

The idea or assumption that Jesus is YHWH, is also just a belief, assumption, supposition. Again, depends on who you ask, and what 'proof-texts' or 'logics' they can throw up to support their OPINION.

Suit yourself.
Your agnosticism concerning YHVH leaves nothing to be discussed.

Now what is the real reason you are asking this, your motive?

I wanted to know your opinion.

 

[meshak]

Well, I think they do know the difference, but as you noted, (which is what I said to begin with), they are slowly eating away at old-school Trinitarianism while the Trinitites are asleep: and they do so by claiming to be Trinitites themselves. :chuckle:

they will not admit their doctrine is perverted.

 

[drbrumley]

they will not admit their doctrine is perverted.

Why should we when it isn't?

 

[meshak]

Why should we when it isn't?

peace

 

[freelight]

I wanted to know your opinion.

But you should know that my concept of 'God' or 'Deity' definitely includes this 'God' being CONSCIOUS. - hence I'm asking what peculiar motive could be behind the question.

I might be 'agnostic' on some issues, only admitting that I do not know, an honest admission about any given thing or subject. On other theistical points, i'm pure gnostic - meaning I can only KNOW by some inward subjectivity of consciousness, some inner religious experience of Spirit, an interior reality. I'm still curious why you ask if YHWH, if indeed YHWH is a 'name' for 'God' is conscious. Of course, if this being is actually 'God'.

'God' is LIGHT (the source and radiance of consciousness itself )

 

[steko]

But you should know that my concept of 'God' or 'Deity' definitely includes this 'God' being CONSCIOUS. - hence I'm asking what peculiar motive could be behind the question.

I might be 'agnostic' on some issues, only admitting that I do not know, an honest admission about any given thing or subject. On other theistical points, i'm pure gnostic - meaning I can only KNOW by some inward subjectivity of consciousness, some inner religious experience of Spirit, an interior reality. I'm still curious why you ask if YHWH, if indeed YHWH is a 'name' for 'God' is conscious. Of course, if this being is actually 'God'.

'God' is LIGHT (the source and radiance of consciousness itself )

Consciousness and self-consciousness are not the same.

 

[freelight]

Well, I think they do know the difference, but as you noted, (which is what I said to begin with), they are slowly eating away at old-school Trinitarianism while the Trinitites are asleep: and they do so by claiming to be Trinitites themselves. :chuckle:

Trinitites? okay daqq,....you've reached an all time low with creative entitlements

 

[daqq]

Sure!

For instance, Jerry, just because you read this in most translations does not make it true:



Your rendering is a lie fostered and fomented by translators with an agenda. While I still do not totally agree with the Young's Literal Bible Translation at least he was not afraid to render it for what it truly says in the most critical portion, and this is shown by how the same word form is rendered in many, many, other places:

Isaiah 9:6 YLT
6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power [הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה] is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name [וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמ֜וֹ] Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

That is indeed what the text says, "HE CALLS HIS NAME", and this changes the whole meaning of what the Prophet is saying because the one who is on the neck or shoulder of the son who is given, (on his neck means, "his yoke"), is Ha-mSARah, that is, the Arche, the Empire, the Dominion, the Head, the Beginning. In other words the son that is given has Ha-mSARah on his neck or shoulder, (and his yoke is χρηστος-chestos-gracious just as he says), and HE CALLS HIS NAME the title or titles which follow in the passage, which are also not likely rendered correctly because of inaccurate vowel pointing in the Masorete Hebrew Text done by those who rejected the Messiah, (אביעד = "my father-progenitor of testimony" - "My Testimony Progenitor-Father", i.e. "the Progenitor of my Testimony", that is to say, the Testimony, the Logos-Word sent from the heavenly Father out of the heavens).

Luke 10:20-24
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in the heavens.
21 In that hour Yeshua rejoiced in the Spirit of the Holy One, [τω πνευματι τω αγιω] and said, I thank thee, O Father, Master of the heavens and the earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in your sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no one knows who the Son is, if not he knows the Father; and who the Father is, if not he knows the Son, and he to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that you see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them.

Matthew 11:25-30
25 At that time Yeshua answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Master of the heavens and the earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in your sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knows the Son if not he knows the Father; neither knows anyone the Father if not he knows the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son wills to reveal Him.
28 Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my coupling-yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my coupling-yoke is chrestos, and my burden is light.

 

[freelight]

Looping...............

Looping...............

Is YHVH a self-conscious being?

Consciousness and self-consciousness are not the same.

:think:

My former statements hold. If you'd like to explain how your second response answers your first iniquiry, we'll let you creatively respond. Your 'creative intelligence' responding could maybe direct the dialogue in a constructive purposeful manner

As I shared,...your first inquiry goes without saying. Your second response relates to some preconception or differentiation that your making in your own 'consciousness'

 

[daqq]

Trinitites? okay daqq,....you've reached an all time low with creative entitlements

Uh-oh, you mean that is not accurate short form?
This is certainly not the first time I have used it.

 

[freelight]

Luke 10:20-24
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in the heavens.
21 In that hour Yeshua rejoiced in the Spirit of the Holy One, [τω πνευματι τω αγιω] and said, I thank thee, O Father, Master of the heavens and the earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in your sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no one knows who the Son is, if not he knows the Father; and who the Father is, if not he knows the Son, and he to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that you see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them.

Matthew 11:25-30
25 At that time Yeshua answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Master of the heavens and the earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in your sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knows the Son if not he knows the Father; neither knows anyone the Father if not he knows the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son wills to reveal Him.
28 Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my coupling-yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my coupling-yoke is chrestos, and my burden is light.

Jesus has a God and Father :thumb:

 

[freelight]

Uh-oh, you mean that is not accurate short form?
This is certainly not the first time I have used it.

Just playing - it the first time I saw it used here. Maybe you could expand more on how JS's version of the Trinity differs from a traditional/classical definition of such. As I also recently expressly asked,...if Jesus is YHWH, where does the Father come into any of the picture of God's inter-action with people in the OT and thru into the NT? - I guess its dispensational among other things :noid:

 

[Tambora]

I doubt that I agree with anyone on everything, but I agree with Jerry on a lot.
I agree that the Lord Jesus is YHVH.

Me too.

 

[Tambora]

Consciousness and self-consciousness are not the same.

That's because things that differ are not the same.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It seems clear, I think, to a reasonable person, that Jehovah and Jesus are Father and Son....two distinct individuals.

Let us look at this passage:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

The Jews who heard Him obviously thought that when He referred to His Father that way that He was claiming to be God.

If this was just a misunderstanding then the Lord Jesus would have cleared this up, saying, "No, I am not claiming to be God." However, what He told the Jews only made it even more plain that He was claiming to be God. First, He told them that He had the same power to raise up the dead as does the Father (v.21). He then said that all judgment has been committed to Him by the Father (v.22). Then He told them this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

There can be absolutely no doubt that by those words the Lord Jesus was confirming the Jews' idea that He was making Himself equal to God. And there is no reason at all why He would say those things unless He is God.

Perhaps someone on this thread can explain why He said those things?

Thanks!

 

[daqq]

Jesus has a God and Father :thumb:

And the Word in his heart:

Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the scroll of haNavi Yeshayahu; and when he had opened the scroll, he found the place where it was written:
18 Ruach Adonai YHWH is upon me, [Isaiah 61:1a] for He has mashach-anointed me to preach the good news to the poor: He has sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised:
19 To preach the acceptable year of YHWH [Isaiah 61:1-2a].
20 And he closed the scroll, and gave it again to the minister, and sat down: and the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he commenced, saying unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears!

Psalm 40:7-8
7 Then said I, Behold, I come: in the mgillat-kephalidi-header of the Sefer it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my Elohim: Your Torah is within my heart.

For that Spirit which comes forth from the mouth proceeds from the heart.

 

[freelight]

And the Word in his heart:



For that Spirit which comes forth from the mouth proceeds from the heart.

Yes, Jesus was awesomely 'anointed' by his God and Father

 

[daqq]

Just playing - it the first time I saw it used here. Maybe you could expand more on how JS's version of the Trinity differs from a traditional/classical definition of such. As I also recently expressly asked,...if Jesus is YHWH, where does the Father come into any of the picture of God's inter-action with people in the OT and thru into the NT? - I guess its dispensational among other things :noid:

Oh yeah, it's dispensational alright, even a hundred years ago it did not mean what it means today despite what the modern Trins claim about a tradition that goes back seventeen hundred years. That is just how it is when definitions are allowed to fluctuate and slip away. Today's MADists are slowly becoming the new version of Trinitarianism and most people are not even capable of seeing it because study is just too "boring" and complex things take too much time to comprehend. Before too long no doubt, if not already, a pastor will be able to stand before a congregation and proclaim with a straight face the ancient traditions of the Mid Acts theology of most of the premier church fathers; and who is going to be capable of refuting him, even if they wanted to? They will be happy just knowing they are the true saints believing the most ancient traditions of men, (and of course "traditions of men" will not be a bad thing to them either). :baby:

Happy, happy, joy, joy.

 

[Tambora]

Let us look at this passage:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

The Jews who heard Him obviously thought that when He referred to His Father that way that He was claiming to be God.

If this was just a misunderstanding then the Lord Jesus would have cleared this up, saying, "No, I am not claiming to be God." However, what He told the Jews only made it even more plain that He was claiming to be God. First, He told them that He had the same power to raise up the dead as does the Father (v.21). He then said that all judgment has been committed to Him by the Father (v.22). Then He told them this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

There can be absolutely no doubt that by those words the Lord Jesus was confirming the Jews' idea that He was making Himself equal to God. And there is no reason at all why He would say those things unless He is God.

Perhaps someone on this thread can explain why He said those things?

Thanks!

You tell 'em, Jerry!
Good post.

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by steko
I doubt that I agree with anyone on everything, but I agree with Jerry on a lot.
I agree that the Lord Jesus is YHVH.

Me too.

You also say "Jesus is YHWH" ???
So then I guess it is a Mid-Acts belief then, huh?
So far, except for John W, all the other MADists I have met have said the same.