Interplanner
Well-known member
I see. So it came before he did, but one of the last things he does is warn them that it is coming in that upcoming generation. OK...
ECT Jesus Return
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I see. So it came before he did, but one of the last things he does is warn them that it is coming in that upcoming generation. OK...
iamaberean,
Use the quote button and then I can reply better to your points.
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
The abominating of the OT temple occurred before Jesus appeared to Israel, (which is why He came to judge it by His Fathers Word)
Jesus was saying to his disciples, "when you see", some of them would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel.
The abomination was the destruction of the temple by Gentiles.
no
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Again, Jesus is speaking to his disciples and the Jews of that generation.
The same applies to people of that kind of all generations---
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Their house, which in the temple, is left desolate.
The Temple was desolate before Christ came.
Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
"For I say unto you (my disciples} you shall not see me again until I come in judgment"
They only saw Christ when they repented as they began to do on the day of Pentecost when they believed those who came in the name of the Lord.
No scripture states as you claim.
The same principle and timeline occurs before Christs second coming (the prophets speak this time Rev.ch 11).
It happened in their generation, just as Jesus said it would.
Yes and it will happen worldwide next time.
The Prophets must speak in the entire world in order that the entire world be judged.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Jesus is telling John that he must prophesy.
First the churches judgment Rev.ch 9 and then the world.
I don't see that, show me scriptural evidence!
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
The sixth trumpet shows this----
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
LA
iamaberean
New member
When one copies and pastes symbolic scripture from 'Revelation' means nothing. When doing so, one must copy and paste other scriptures that confirm understanding.
Please show other scripture to prove who the whore is in Rev 17:16
I'll ask another question when you answer this one.
Interplanner
Well-known member
1st of all, an abomination is the sin itself that triggers the ultimate wrath of God on Israel. The abomination is not the wrath itself. In this case it was a person, the zealot leading the defiance of Rome, claiming himself to be Messiah/Christ. The expression AofD does not start with abomination, anyway, in Dan 8:13. It is the rebellion. It is that rebellion that triggers the final wrath of God on Israel.
Nothing in Mt24B is about Israel. It is worldwide. It could have been right after the DofJ but a delay was allowed. As we now know.
Nothing in Mt24B is about Israel. It is worldwide. It could have been right after the DofJ but a delay was allowed. As we now know.
iamaberean
New member
Hermeneutics tells us how to read with understanding. Jesus said "When ye see" . Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples and he was telling them that "you shall see". So it is most logical that the abomination has to do with the Roman army even though we may not know the exact reason.
Every thing in Mat 24 is about Israel, Jesus was the Jewish Messiah first, later he was ours also. There was not a delay. Don't spread that stuff.
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Just goes to show even those who subscribe to Preterist views (Interplanner and iamaberean) are no better at sorting these issues out (let alone, agreeing on them) than any one else.
Do the history, they say.
"The history" by men whose views they subscribe to who assert all kinds of mistakes supposedly made by the writer's of the NT.
Interplanner
Well-known member
No delay? See 2 Pet 3. It's the issue he took up there, isn't it? Don't you recall parables about servants at work while the master is gone and they are wondering if he's been delayed, etc.?
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Next.
LA
Interplanner
Well-known member
The beast was Rome, from Danielic imagery.
The accusation against the harlot is the same as found in Mt 23: all the blood of the prophets.
The harlot rides the beast = how Judaism was influential throughout the Roman empire. Notice how many times in Acts that those in Judaism have Rome's authority in their various cities to stop Christians.
The beast devoured the harlot is the destruction of Israel in 66+. Once the harlot is "stoned," the feast of Christ's wedding can procede, Rev 17-19.
The main clue in all this is the 1st chapter of the Rev says all these things would happen shortly, quickly, were at hand. That doesn't sound like X000 years in the future.
The accusation against the harlot is the same as found in Mt 23: all the blood of the prophets.
The harlot rides the beast = how Judaism was influential throughout the Roman empire. Notice how many times in Acts that those in Judaism have Rome's authority in their various cities to stop Christians.
The beast devoured the harlot is the destruction of Israel in 66+. Once the harlot is "stoned," the feast of Christ's wedding can procede, Rev 17-19.
The main clue in all this is the 1st chapter of the Rev says all these things would happen shortly, quickly, were at hand. That doesn't sound like X000 years in the future.
The abomination of desolation is set up, and is not the Roman army.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
and the ending of it is not by the Roman Army either--
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
LA
What you and he both fail to see is that, but for "this mystery" that not only has Israel's Prophesied events, interrupted, but why - but for that - 1st Century Rome would indeed have been that power against Jerusalem that the Lord was to have put down, with His return, Romans 11:23-29 and all this passage is actually a reference to but for the failure of so many to heed verse 25's "I would not" warning.
Its the same old same old - you gainsay; you never seek to "know and understand..." but through your own ideas...
Livelystone
New member
The AoD that Daniel spoke of as happening in the temple of stone was when the sacrifice was no longer done as it was supposed to be done causing it and the truth to be thrown to the ground by reason of transgression aka sin. (Dan.8:12,13 KJV)
However, the above "transgression" AKA sin was also a "type and shadow" of a sin that would be seen again in the temple made without hands where the sacrifice made up of praises coming from the mouths of Christians would no longer be the truth that is describing a situation common by the time of the second century........ So Jesus said "when you see it flee to the mountains" because by the time the Bible appeared "nothing but the truth" had already disappeared from the worship coming from the church.
Plainly said, the phrase "when you see it" rather than 'when it happens' was made because it did not matter when people became Christians because the truth had gone out of the praise coming from the church with the departure of the last apostle who were the guardians of the truth.(2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 KJV)
Consequently, if and when a Christian sees the truth they realize it does not matter what denomination is saying what because none of them have it right.
At that point they are to "get out of Babylon" but are commanded "not to go back to Egypt' that would be going from one church worshipping wrong for reasons that may not be the same as the next church is not worshipping in truth, but both are missing the truth!
Consequently, rather than waste time looking for a church that has it right we are to flee to the mountains that has always been where God appeared unto man from Moses to Jesus.
Did Jesus physically climb a physical mountain every time He wanted to be one with His Father?.......... Only if in our minds we too have to climb a physical mountain meaning we have missed the mark of the truth of the Lord returning Mt. Zion where there will never be a rapture of the church leaving the earth. On the other hand there will be Christians "caught up to be with the Lord" that will be the unveiling of the sons of God all creation waits for (Ro.8:19 KJV)
There is no substitute for worshipping in truth........... when the truth is heard coming from the lips of Christians whose hearts are right before God, God is happy to answer their prayers with signs and wonders.
The truth missing from worship is the reason why signs and wonders are missing from the church including from churches who believe in signs and wonders but never see them happen.
So I say again, when the truth returns to the worship God hears coming from a body of saints so will signs and wonders return to them the same as some individuals are witnessing miracles today.
However, the above "transgression" AKA sin was also a "type and shadow" of a sin that would be seen again in the temple made without hands where the sacrifice made up of praises coming from the mouths of Christians would no longer be the truth that is describing a situation common by the time of the second century........ So Jesus said "when you see it flee to the mountains" because by the time the Bible appeared "nothing but the truth" had already disappeared from the worship coming from the church.
Plainly said, the phrase "when you see it" rather than 'when it happens' was made because it did not matter when people became Christians because the truth had gone out of the praise coming from the church with the departure of the last apostle who were the guardians of the truth.(2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 KJV)
Consequently, if and when a Christian sees the truth they realize it does not matter what denomination is saying what because none of them have it right.
At that point they are to "get out of Babylon" but are commanded "not to go back to Egypt' that would be going from one church worshipping wrong for reasons that may not be the same as the next church is not worshipping in truth, but both are missing the truth!
Consequently, rather than waste time looking for a church that has it right we are to flee to the mountains that has always been where God appeared unto man from Moses to Jesus.
Did Jesus physically climb a physical mountain every time He wanted to be one with His Father?.......... Only if in our minds we too have to climb a physical mountain meaning we have missed the mark of the truth of the Lord returning Mt. Zion where there will never be a rapture of the church leaving the earth. On the other hand there will be Christians "caught up to be with the Lord" that will be the unveiling of the sons of God all creation waits for (Ro.8:19 KJV)
There is no substitute for worshipping in truth........... when the truth is heard coming from the lips of Christians whose hearts are right before God, God is happy to answer their prayers with signs and wonders.
The truth missing from worship is the reason why signs and wonders are missing from the church including from churches who believe in signs and wonders but never see them happen.
So I say again, when the truth returns to the worship God hears coming from a body of saints so will signs and wonders return to them the same as some individuals are witnessing miracles today.
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There was no interruption.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
LA
heir and I will possibly differ on the sense of some of that.
At the same time, you have obviously failed to study out:
(1) what it was they obtained, 10:20, 21;
(2) verse 7's "blinded" in light of verse 25's "in part until," and;
(3) the "in real time" sense of said election back then, verse 5.
The elect obtained the promise of the Spirit and the rest were blinded because of their unbelief.
Paul is speaking in the situation of his time in that Israel consisted of both believers and unbelievers and there will come a time that no unbelievers will be in God's Israel made up of only the elect included from all nations of the flesh who believe.
The elect are all those who believe from all times and all nations who received the promise and who will inherit the Kingdom with Christ at His return and not before.
Read Hebrews ch 11.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The elect received the spirit of the coming Kingdom of God.
LA
iamaberean
New member
Most scripture in the book of Revelation has an interpretation somewhere else in the bible. Here are some that spoke of these things.
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
"if we had been" is Jesus saying that the scribes and Pharisees said the following.
"we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets".
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
Jdg 2:17 And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so.
1Ch 5:25 And they transgressed against the God of their fathers, and went a whoring after the gods of the people of the land, whom God destroyed before them.
Jews went whoring after other gods and spelt the blood of the saints.
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Antichrist precedes the Lord's appearing...Christ destroys him by the breath of His mouth.
iamaberean
New member
Totton Linnet,
The bible simply says that anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Christ, is anti-Christ. There are still millions of anti-Christs walking around today.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Paul says he is the "man of lawlessness who exults himself above everything called god and who sits in the temple of God claiming that he himself is God"
....who the Lord will destroy with the breath of His mouth when He comes
....who the Lord will destroy with the breath of His mouth when He comes